Come on boys Lets figure some shit out(Spured off of Warrior's Post)
MIke XXL, you touched on a thoery that I have probably fowled up for others. The anbolic growth of rebuilding muscle fibers must have another or secondary path for hypertrophy. In experimenting with my body I have taken (my modest array) each androgen and made a hack data script. but I can say that with each different molecule from these hormones some have simmilar effects and others are on the opposite side of that androgen spectrum. So When I made a comment as to keeping my receptors jumping It has more to do with the testoserone dirivitive as a molecule having a different effect on that used receptor; than the androgen before and as new receptors become avalible they too become acustom to the dose and molecule so changing the androgen crates more receptor site production not only the dose.
MMAX
not my break down just an intro...
To all the guinea pig and pin cushions like myself out there... There are new improved theories to cycling and staggering. And the only way were gonna find out the data on dosing, stacking with staggers, and longer ran cycles is if we experiment. Remember it was only 25 years ago people thought muscle turned into fat.
So I'll break this some of this down for ya, kinda
About ten years ago a cycle was ran in a taper. Theory was to rise to a peak and come down so your body can adjust with out shock…
Ok ok... But some like my self don’t think a short cycle is enough time to get the body using the androgens properly and long low doses could be more beneficial.
Well anyway… staggering became more and more preference with in two or three cycles per year switching androgens for different ones through out the cycle, not stacking but dropping and changing.
Bulking and cutting have now become long ran cycles together with out getting off. Stacks have become normal but combining 2 or 3 androgens for a # of weeks then switch androgens for different types and so on... High androgens ran for the bulking part and lower androgens high anabolic for the cutting, but were talking in short and long bursts all year long.
Don’t get me wrong there are risks but the coin is this…There is healthy way to run all year long. And the results may be incomparable to short cycles and getting off.
With you as the front line… The only real data on receptor mapping and saturation is coming from us all of us.
Using physiology as a starting point and biochemistry as a coupler I think there are more efficient doses and androgens to go along with those doses; that can yield amazing results.
I still have some reservation being at one time a more is better mentality, but truthfully had a crash in my regimen that brought me to using lower doses. I achieved the same results with less mgs.
This is not for beginners though, as a beginner I think you should go slow and learn your body before guinea pigging. Making mistakes is not always bad…but you should be knowledgeable of your body.
Regular blood tests and a yearly heart examine, EKG report should be the norm…
I meant this to be a discussion for long time users, mega dozer’s, and guinea pigs... But open for any discussion…
I've only been using for 5 yrs recorded and I dont count the first because it was not pretty...
My questions in the middle
My questions are a little general but for me personally I have receptor mapped my self with (the best records are from deca, prop, and winny)... I feel that most everyone can take a steroid at a high enough milligram and experience a similar anabolic growth... but there are few that know just at what minimum your dose can be and you achieve the same results. Ex I've taken 1000mg of deca and then to 2000mg per week and have concluded for me that I experience the same gains and no sides at 400mgs, but the gains I made at 2000mg I needed to take a minimum of 600-800mgs to accomplish...
From the fist post I made- I have now noticed a dramatic increase in muscular hypertrophy when I take the minimum mg yet continue to change the androgens.
My next test is to do the above but now record my medical status... heart, blood anomalies, test levels... for a year.
Have you found good or negative results from year long intake?
Any negative results that were apparent besides grocery money?
Again this will be 2-1/2 of yearly supplementation for me the results dont compare to the 3yr period when I cycled in weeks...
Just for the formal definition: Ref. Anabolic reference guide BIll P.
Receptor Mapping--- (This is a technique which is used in an attempt to determine how certain steroids affect a given individual.
Each person reacts differently to dosages of different steroids.
Mapping starts with recording a number of aspects of a cycle. First of all the steroids taken must be carefully documented everyday. Side’s appetite, sex drive, energy levels...
During the cycle the dosages should be steadily increased. If sides are occurring at the same time strength and weight gains are being made, the dosage should be lowered to see if gains out weigh the adverse reactions...
***Some use common sense as a form of receptor mapping. For ex. If an athlete was taking 200mg of deca a week and experiencing good strength and weight gains, while noticing no sides, this dose would be suspected to be optimal. Experimenting with going up to 400mg per week may bring on sides but not more gains...In this case the lower dose is optimal.)
Re: My questions in the middle
Quote:
Originally posted by mmaximus25
My questions are a little general but for me personally I have receptor mapped my self with (the best records are from deca, prop, and winny)...
Tell ya what MMAX - I did Deca at 5 weeks 800/400/400/400/400 and then Eq at 10 weeks - 100mg EOD. I had great results and pumps from the Deca and the Eq never really produced much... one was short with greater dose, the other was more layed out... and... I don't think mg per mg Equipoise was made for human receptors as Deca was... obviously it's human grade vs vetinary... but I can see where you are getting at with receptor mapping. Different strokes for different folks, some like Clomid - others do better with Nolvadex or HCG. Some like Boldenone - some do better with Norandrolone...
Your more exact than me, here's a ????
setsthesun
I appreciate the hit... and happy to see some mind melding
Your switches are more exact and controlled... leaving me thinking about my next move...
quick explanation:
I'm receptor mapping is only to maximize my gains due to money issues for my gear, I can’t afford as much any more... also I'm not completely health unconscious. I am cooking my personal year script that will be healthy in regards to my Estrogen & Androgen ratio, Gonadal function and Prostate health...
????Now the question... This will help me, if you have good data on your self???:
On your andro A & B spreads have you mega dosed the full term????
And, or did you intake moderate or mega doses on the anabolic spreads... I know you said you shock but are we talking going from 200 to 400 mg's, 400 to 800mgs or 1000 to 2000mgs????
***Put some thought into this fellow Pigs and Cushions and reply***
I am leaning on the low to moderate doses right now; as far as bang for your buck. The same stagger or switches as (setsthesun) I do... but in conjunction to the volume per vial... meaning the androgenic and anabolic spreads are directly dependant on the ml- (I use the bottle till it’s gone). Due to my harnessing the short and long esters... So my andro B spread wont last as long as andro A did and will be back on the long androgenic ester quicker... (maybe saving money instead of shocking but that needs some research)
I break up the higher androgenic AS into short and long esters. my anabolic spreads have become (using setsthesun: A & B scenario) Anabolic A long ester and B short...
Finally, what I'm going to switch; is androgenic A long ester - then to anabolic A short ester- Androgenic B short ester- Anabolic B long ester.
The test subjects will be basic and domestic (domestic vs. exotic, meaning domestic is easy to get & exotic is costly and harder to get)
Subjects under personnel study: (Enanthate, Propionate, deca, winny, d-bol, EQ, nolva, proviron, hcg)
I am going to throw in a relatively new to me synthetic androgen: Proviron; I am throwing it in after looking back on some logs and chatting with a new a pig: Warrior...
I will say the first way worked phenomenal for me but I am a guinea pig so...
One more add on to the Novel: I am looking into what I call and The secondary path of muscle fiber hypertrophy... (SPMH)
After talking with Warrior, He sparked A flag with me on the SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin)
There's a T-mag article that may be putting some of us into the, I need to go back to class category and read every fucking thing over again...
I'll post the summery on the main page... look for it... stay in touch setsthesun & warrior. Were close... very close to having a ratio of higher benefits with AS in regards to growth and health Vs side effects and health anomalies...
THX guys...
Warrior, thanks for the PM... heres my spit
To answer your question honestly, If you have the advantage of getting good stagger info you should use this in your future aspect. One misconception about a stagger which I probably need to post this; the cutting and bulking have less to do with the AS than diet. I can help you plan your stagger but we need more personal data on you…
I think you should run your cycle that you have but continue to plan for your stagger. Being the guru for your own body is most valuable… You will save time in poor cycling and never have any loss in mass.
Your end goal is????
(This will help you…cause me personally I want to look good, good enough to stand next to a Tito Raymond or Aaron Maddron and say you fit in…) I don’t want to compete and I don’t want to be so massive I can’t sprint…
Your stagger would look a lot like the cycle you have now but you change your diet to androgen to achieve maximum results. If your cutting you keep your diet consistent with low fat, no saturated, no refined sugar, simple suger ok, high pro-tein, moderate carbohydrates if complex, high carbohydrates if Simple.
I do caution that if you don’t know your minimum dose of mg per androgen you will have to use this as a mapping tool. Basiclly on the fly. Remember the post I made with the def. Of receptor mapping; well you will need to slowly increase the dose until you see the risk to benefit. The dose compared to results. If your going to go this route I recommend a one- two test… the androgenic and the anabolic will be tested in pattern… try the androgenic at a lower than normal does the first time, then when going to your anabolic do the same, instead of switching to a different androgenic for the next step use the first one before but at a higher dose and record, do the same with the following anabolic.
Standard learning pattern that I recommend
You’ve done the first two already
1. I believe people should master the stacks first, because there is enough data out there that you can compare to… If your gains don’t match the data you begin to look for the problem. Most of the time its diet.
2. After you have a mediocre feel for the androgens you should begin to use them individually to see the reality in results to definition of androgen ..(did you retain some water, was your blood pressure high)
3. Then begin a stagger with in a cycle and keep track of your doses and diet…
4. Then begin a formal stagger of androgens. Switch in a pattern per type and dose. Couple your androgens with the use of nolvadex, Proviron, and HCG…
Your diet will be key, you must understand and I know you do… it’s diet, diet, diet brother… It will make or break you… But one advantage you do have is you can slip up in your diet more in a stagger due to length than a stack cycle…. (you fuck up with fat intake on anadrol or even enanthate and hello balloon boy…
You already have mastered how to get big you can fine tune that even more with the mapping but for right now I am going to suggest some thing you may be in disagreement with. Cut down and build back up the right way…
Use me as an Ex. I was at 245-250 5’11 at about 25%BF. I just wanted to see if I could get that big because I have no trouble packing on weight… I decided to diet down until I could hit a BF of 4%… My goals started to change as I dropped body fat, I realized that I wanted to look good year around not just half of the year… So, I only dropped the enanthate and began my diet down. I’m really good at getting shredded but I will admit it take some discipline and practice…
I think you should diet down until you get to a 9%-6% body fat… don’t stop dieting until you get there… It may leave you at a 220 weight and you may sacrifice some muscle but hold on because after the diet down you will start your staggering. The hardest think to gage is lean muscle mass when you’ve got a 15-20% BF. Unless you can average you water weight and take a BF measurement every month your not going to see the results with your eyes like I will…
You’re in the same path I traveled.. I think??? doing cycles and getting size and mass from them…Ok well your done with that part now (I don’t mean size and mass) I mean getting the feel of the androgenic with coupled anabolics…
I think this is also “Key” in the over all growth of a user. It’s kind of like this: You can look at pro bber’s history also. Heavy cycling to get the mass in years. Leaning the mass down to lean muscle, then maintaining that muscle maturity… with continued staggering...
Now same concept just repeats each year. To keep packing on the muscle…
You can’t do this in a short periods of time when you’re talking about adding 20-30lb of lean mass. It will take a couple years…I know I’m running on about this but I want you to know where I’m coming from…. Most common is the bulk for half the year and then cut down the second half
***but that doesn’t have as much to do with the juice as the diet***
I can have a cutting cycle and still use a test in there and because my nutrition is equated in; I gain muscle and still lose fat.
There are a couple of things you can do with out bells and whistle receptor mapping. The common sense way is favored for some what intelligent people. The tedious record is more for hard personal data or individuals that have a poor scheduling ability.
Looking at your cycles you’ve done before. List your androgens out… You should be able to look at that list and at least one if not two or three should stand out as you’re seeming favorite. Or seeing the ones you achieved dramatic results from; which may have been coupled with another androgen but this is “key”.
Keep the favored list there and the others in a second bracket for now… those will be used later…
Look at the favored list and divide them into androgenic and anabolic…
This is the beginning of mapping with out long study which I implore you still due as a benefit to yourself…(it’s more interesting than anything trying single androgens and just seeing how you react)
The diet is the true kicker… I have finally dialed my diet down by trial and error. I guess you can say it’s how bad you want it. Opening up a magazine at 250 and knowing that I’m stronger that these guys but I don’t look as good. I knew that I could look as good though, its just figuring out the diet.
I like your cutting cycle for a number of reasons. I don’t think you should full on stagger just yet. Pretty similar in weight I think you can benefit from my dieting errors..
I’m currently 5’11” 225 lb @ 10% BF I gain weight like water, I have no problem putting it on I have a problem shredding. I’m self conscience about my appearance and put a lot of time into staying lean.. ok enough about me…
One reason I like the cutting that you want to do is it will create your solid base to build from. If you're anything like me we can jump to 250 no problem but calling it muscle will be the lie..
Keep this in your head… do more than just this one cutting cycle… keep cutting until you dial your diet in… You may not have a competition coming up but that doesn’t mean you can’t act like you do. This is my advice and you can do what ever you want with it.
I’ll give you my scenario on how to get to 4% BF from where you are and you can take that and do what ever you want also.
Every time I look at a cycle I think of the diet to go with it. Your cycle and how I would approach it is get your cardio in every day in the morning (30min a day) approach the high anabolic with large amounts of pro-tein and lower complex carbs, your body will love you for it.. (No red meat during the week) (Saturated fat are your enemy… and how bigger guys like us lose the battle in getting ripped) on the prop a high androgenic keep complex carbs low eat simple carbs like green leafy shit. No fruit unless in the morning. Protein same level… high..
By zig zagging your calories and grams per nutrient you will force your body into a constant metabolic state…