19-NOR & Nolva, bad idea, but why?

[Knockout_Power]

So whats the deal? I see senior members say they use Nolva while on 19-Nor cycles and other who swear its the worst thing to do. Can anybody shed some light on this?

KP

[Swifto]

So whats the deal? I see senior members say they use Nolva while on 19-Nor cycles and other who swear its the worst thing to do. Can anybody shed some light on this?

KP

Its fine to use Tamox and 19-Nors, such as Deca or Tren .

Tamoxifen will down-regulate the progesterone receptor in breast tissue, not up-regulate it.

End of thread.

[Vitruvian-Man]

^^ Swifto knows his stuff.

Just use the search function next time KP.

[Swifto]

^^ Swifto knows his stuff.

Just use the search function next time KP.

Tamoxifen is a mixed ER agonist/antagonist.

In some tissues, such as the endometrium (uterus), upregulation of the PgR would be expected, as the endometrium is very sensitive to estrogen. This is where there is confusion.

In other tissues, such as the breast, Tamoxifen is an antagonist (blocks the ER). The progesterone receptor is synthesized in response to estrogen. So when the ER is blocked (in breast tissue), the progesterone receptor will also down regulate. This is what happens in cancer patients and were no different.

I hope that clears the confusion becuase you will NOT find a study stating Tamoxifen up regulates the progesterone receptor in breast tissue anywhere.

Therefore, Tamoxifen will help reduce gyno when using Tren or Deca , not make it worse.

[roid_rage]

certanly will not help it either, when is prlactin ralated gyno, tamoxifen wont be of much help... But how times changes, a year or a little bet more, ppl will flame you like a noob if you EVER dear to say tamoxifen can be use while on 19 nors... now it seems like its ok...

[roid_rage]

he swifto... how about you merge this thread with the old one that I just bumped, there are some interestings insides in that one... here it is...

Nolvadex CAN be use with 19nors...

[Knockout_Power]

^^ Swifto knows his stuff.

Just use the search function next time KP.

I did a bunch of searching but lots of people argued each point. Who do you listen to?

[D7M]

I did a bunch of searching but lots of people argued each point. Who do you listen to?

self-experimentation.

seriously.

I've personally used nolva with deca and had no problems.

But there are still much better options out there than to use nolva on cycle.

so if someone has there panties that much in a bunch about it,

run aromasin or letro.

[Knockout_Power]

run aromasin or letro.

thats interesting, never heard the aromasin during cycle. I like that idea and have lots of it.

The main reason I asked is that I get a lot of messages about this kind of stuff and have no experience with it or the proper knowledge to be advising others, so I ask the experts and direct others to the post =)

[james21]

We need merc in this thread

[Swifto]

I did a bunch of searching but lots of people argued each point. Who do you listen to?

Didnt I give a clear enough explanation?

Tamoxifen will help Deca or Tren induced gyno by down regulating both the ER and PgR in breast tissue. It will do nothing for PRL gyno though. That is where Prami or Caber come in.

[Knockout_Power]

Didnt I give a clear enough explanation?

Tamoxifen will help Deca or Tren induced gyno by down regulating both the ER and PgR in breast tissue. It will do nothing for PRL gyno though. That is where Prami or Caber come in.

Yes you did and I thank you. I was just pointing out than when someone does research, the answers are not always clear cut cause a bunch of people use wrong info and confuse others.

But thank you for clearing up this myth.

[roid_rage]

Didnt I give a clear enough explanation?

Tamoxifen will help Deca or Tren induced gyno by down regulating both the ER and PgR in breast tissue. It will do nothing for PRL gyno though. That is where Prami or Caber come in.

Not really man, I thought Deca and Tren gyno were PRL (I guess thats stands for prolactin) induced gyno... Then you say tamoxifen will help Deca or Tren gyno? and then you say it wont do for PRL gyno.. im kind of lost here... I can understand Tren, if you are using Test, then the strogens levels are going to be pretty high, therefore you can get some "test induced gyno" (I dont know how to put it in english, but I think you'll get my point), but deca? would you please explain it a little bet better... thanx.

[Swifto]

Not really man, I thought Deca and Tren gyno were PRL (I guess thats stands for prolactin) induced gyno... Then you say tamoxifen will help Deca or Tren gyno? and then you say it wont do for PRL gyno.. im kind of lost here... I can understand Tren, if you are using Test, then the strogens levels are going to be pretty high, therefore you can get some "test induced gyno" (I dont know how to put it in english, but I think you'll get my point), but deca? would you please explain it a little bet better... thanx.

No, I stated Tamoxifen will down regulate the progesterone receptor in breast tissue. Some "guru's" state Tamoxifen will up regulate the progesterone receptor and cause or lead to gyno. By either worsening estrogenic gyno or by itself. They, therfore, assume Tamoxifen CANT be used with Deca or Tren , but this is false.

I have never seen a case of gyno solely caused by PgR. It seems impossible as the PgR is synthesized by the ER (Estrogen Receptor).

Deca and Tren will both elevate PRL (Prolactin) levels (although, again debatable). Therfore, for PRL related sides, such as loss of labido, gyno and lactation (although not only from PRL), Caber, Prami or Dostinex need to be used.

If that doesnt explain it nothing will. And...To be honest, I'm tired of explaining things over and over just for YOUR benifit, such as my HCG thread.

[redz]

I`m currently running a low dose of nolva while on Tren . I have never had an issue I am also taking dostinex and 1.25mg letro eod. I only do this if the nips feel strange at all but I dont see the problem. I used to even think it was bad but really I dont think there is any issues with it.

[Swifto]

I`m currently running a low dose of nolva while on Tren. I have never had an issue I am also taking dostinex and 1.25mg letro eod. I only do this if the nips feel strange at all but I dont see the problem. I used to even think it was bad but really I dont think there is any issues with it.

I also used to think it was bad because it upregulted the PgR. I've since found, its bullshit.

[roid_rage]

No, I stated Tamoxifen will down regulate the progesterone receptor in breast tissue. Some "guru's" state Tamoxifen will up regulate the progesterone receptor and cause or lead to gyno. By either worsening estrogenic gyno or by itself. They, therfore, assume Tamoxifen CANT be used with Deca or Tren , but this is false.

I have never seen a case of gyno solely caused by PgR. It seems impossible as the PgR is synthesized by the ER (Estrogen Receptor).

Deca and Tren will both elevate PRL (Prolactin) levels (although, again debatable). Therfore, for PRL related sides, such as loss of labido, gyno and lactation (although not only from PRL), Caber, Prami or Dostinex need to be used.

If that doesnt explain it nothing will. And...To be honest, I'm tired of explaining things over and over just for YOUR benifit, such as my HCG thread.

for my benefit??? what the heck man? ok, you are a vet and a mod, but is this a discussion forum or is this just a place where we have to read and say ohh man, what ever you say is right (im not saying is wrong, youre probably right)... Ive never been disrespectful towards you, I just dont like to eat anything without knowing what the heck im eating, sorry if you like ppl to say, hey switfo, youre the sh**! No bro, Im here to discuss things I find interesting, if you dont want to answer, then dont do it, but there is no reason to get all agressive towards me, just because Im trying to get into a coneversation with you...

"Tamoxifen will help Deca or Tren induced gyno by down regulating both the ER and PgR in breast tissue. It will do nothing for PRL gyno though. That is where Prami or Caber come in."

My question was simple, how can you get gyno from deca if its not from prolactin related issues? since you said that tamoxigen will help deca or tren (im assuming every 19 nor compound) gyno, theres got to be another reason to get gyno than is not because of the rise of the prolactin levels (we are talking about 19 nor compounds)

I hope this doesnt get me ban or anything...

[Swifto]

for my benefit??? what the heck man? ok, you are a vet and a mod, but is this a discussion forum or is this just a place where we have to read and say ohh man, what ever you say is right (im not saying is wrong, youre probably right)... Ive never been disrespectful towards you, I just dont like to eat anything without knowing what the heck im eating, sorry if you like ppl to say, hey switfo, youre the sh**! No bro, Im here to discuss things I find interesting, if you dont want to answer, then dont do it, but there is no reason to get all agressive towards me, just because Im trying to get into a coneversation with you...

"Tamoxifen will help Deca or Tren induced gyno by down regulating both the ER and PgR in breast tissue. It will do nothing for PRL gyno though. That is where Prami or Caber come in."

My question was simple, how can you get gyno from deca if its not from prolactin related issues? since you said that tamoxigen will help deca or tren (im assuming every 19 nor compound) gyno, theres got to be another reason to get gyno than is not because of the rise of the prolactin levels (we are talking about 19 nor compounds)

I hope this doesnt get me ban or anything...

You wont get banned for disagreeing with a staff member.

If you disagree with me, then conduct your own research, just like I did and formulate your own opinoin. Dont disagree with me and ask me to then provide reasoning again and again becuase you dont understand. How can I provide the answers you need, if you disagree with what I'm stating in the first place? I cant.

You can get gyno (it seems) 3 ways. First off, from estrogen. Second, from progesterone alone, or progesterone making estrogenic gyno worse. And finally, from prolactin.

I am stating Tamoxifen can be used to treat gyno from either Deca or Tren, whether it be from estrogen or progesterone. Tamoxifen CANNOT treat prolactin induced gyno. But can treat estrogenic gyno or progestenic gyno (if that exists).

You see, when people use Deca and Tren, they tend to use Testosterone too. So if they experienced gyno, it may be from estrogen, NOT from Deca and Tren and again, I'm stating its OK to use Tamoxifen.

This was all found out by myself, reading and researching. If you had done adequate research, YOU would know this. So I suggest you do that, rather than disagree and ask me to explain myself MORE when you dont understand. Which is exactly what happend in my HCG thread.

It seems everyone else understands in this thread, bar you.

[roid_rage]

You wont get banned for disagreeing with a staff member.

If you disagree with me, then conduct your own research, just like I did and formulate your own opinoin. Dont disagree with me and ask me to then provide reasoning again and again becuase you dont understand. How can I provide the answers you need, if you disagree with what I'm stating in the first place? I cant.

You can get gyno (it seems) 3 ways. First off, from estrogen. Second, from progesterone alone, or progesterone making estrogenic gyno worse. And finally, from prolactin.

I am stating Tamoxifen can be used to treat gyno from either Deca or Tren , whether it be from estrogen or progesterone. Tamoxifen CANNOT treat prolactin induced gyno. But can treat estrogenic gyno or progestenic gyno (if that exists).

You see, when people use Deca and Tren, they tend to use Testosterone too. So if they experienced gyno, it may be from estrogen, NOT from Deca and Tren and again, I'm stating its OK to use Tamoxifen.

This was all found out by myself, reading and researching. If you had done adequate research, YOU would know this. So I suggest you do that, rather than disagree and ask me to explain myself MORE when you dont understand. Which is exactly what happend in my HCG thread.

It seems everyone else understands in this thread, bar you.

Ok, explained, thanx. We were saying the same thing in different lenguages looks like.

[Knockout_Power]

You see, when people use Deca and Tren, they tend to use Testosterone too. So if they experienced gyno, it may be from estrogen, NOT from Deca and Tren and again, I'm stating its OK to use Tamoxifen.

That was the original question and Im glad we have a concrete answer now.. Tamox is cheap, so I like this answer a lot

[JK-87]

Didnt I give a clear enough explanation?

Tamoxifen will help Deca or Tren induced gyno by down regulating both the ER and PgR in breast tissue. It will do nothing for PRL gyno though. That is where Prami or Caber come in.

what other things can you use to keep your libido up other than caber (if you can not get hold of it)?

[Swifto]

what other things can you use to keep your libido up other than caber (if you can not get hold of it)?

Using Cabergoline when using 19-Nor's doesnt have much to do with keeping labido really. It has more to do with PRL related gyno.

Using some sort of testosterone preparation when using 19-Nor's is paramount IMHO.

[1bigun11]

Using Cabergoline when using 19-Nor's doesnt have much to do with keeping labido really. It has more to do with PRL related gyno.

Using some sort of testosterone preparation when using 19-Nor's is paramount IMHO.

Pramipexole works on prolactin/19nor gyno symptoms and also boosts libido and hgh production. It is also cheaper than caber.

You definitely should have a strong testosterone base when using any 19nor. Some suggest that you run twice as much test as deca or tren .

[JK-87]

Thats great thanks lads. Gota say you know your stuff swifto. . . How old are you ?

[peachfuzz]

ffect of Tamoxifen Administration on Prolactin Release by Invasive Prolactin-Secreting Pituitary Adenomas
Steven W.J. Lamberts, Theo Verleun, Rob Oosterom

Department of Medicine III, Erasmus University, Rotterdam, The Netherlands

Bromocriptine treatment of patients with invasive prolactin (PRL)-secreting pituitary adenomas does not invariably result in normalization of the plasma PRL levels. We previously showed that the antiestrogenic drug tamoxifen inhibited hormone release from transplantable PRL-secreting pituitary tumors in rats. In 8 patients with invasive PRL-secreting pituitary adenomas with extrasellar extension, the effect of the administration of tamoxifen was investigated on the plasma PRL concentration and on the bromocriptine-mediated inhibition of PRL release. Treatment for 5 days with tamoxifen (20 mg/day) suppressed plasma PRL levels as measured in 5 samples over the day significantly by 20 ± 3% (means ± SEM; p < 0.01). During tamoxifen administration the inhibition of PRL secretion by 2.5 mg bromocriptine was further suppressed by 36 ± 7%, in comparison with the plasma PRL levels after bromocriptine alone (p < 0.01).

[peachfuzz]

Antiestrogens are partial estrogen agonists for prolactin production in primary pituitary cultures.
Martinez-Campos A, Amara JF, Dannies PS.

The antiestrogens Ly-117018 and tamoxifen increased prolactin production about 2-fold in primary cultures of male rat anterior pituitary cells. The dose-response relationship was biphasic; 10(-10) M Ly-117018 and 10(-7) M tamoxifen caused maximal stimulation, but higher concentrations caused no stimulation and completely antagonized the 5-fold stimulation caused by estrogen. The calmodulin antagonists, trifluoperazine, pimozide and W7 also prevented estrogen induction of prolactin production. Increasing concentrations of estradiol reversed inhibition by tamoxifen but not by pimozide. These results indicate that, in normal pituitary cells, estrogen antagonists may behave as partial agonists at low concentrations and as full antagonists at higher concentrations (tamoxifen, prolactin, calmodulin, 17 beta-estradiol).

[Swifto]

Thats great thanks lads. Gota say you know your stuff swifto. . . How old are you ?

Mid 20's.

[Swifto]

ffect of Tamoxifen Administration on Prolactin Release by Invasive Prolactin-Secreting Pituitary Adenomas
Steven W.J. Lamberts, Theo Verleun, Rob Oosterom

Department of Medicine III, Erasmus University, Rotterdam, The Netherlands

Bromocriptine treatment of patients with invasive prolactin (PRL)-secreting pituitary adenomas does not invariably result in normalization of the plasma PRL levels. We previously showed that the antiestrogenic drug tamoxifen inhibited hormone release from transplantable PRL-secreting pituitary tumors in rats. In 8 patients with invasive PRL-secreting pituitary adenomas with extrasellar extension, the effect of the administration of tamoxifen was investigated on the plasma PRL concentration and on the bromocriptine-mediated inhibition of PRL release. Treatment for 5 days with tamoxifen (20 mg/day) suppressed plasma PRL levels as measured in 5 samples over the day significantly by 20 ± 3% (means ± SEM; p < 0.01). During tamoxifen administration the inhibition of PRL secretion by 2.5 mg bromocriptine was further suppressed by 36 ± 7%, in comparison with the plasma PRL levels after bromocriptine alone (p < 0.01).

Intresting. Do you have the full paper?

I'm not sure this can be translated into healthy adult men using 19-Nor's though.

[MR10X]

I did a bunch of searching but lots of people argued each point. Who do you listen to?

I am using Nolvadex and Prami with Tren A and Test suspension right now,Its working great for me.I am taking the Nolvadex for the test sides.I chose not to use an AI because i didnt want to completely kill my estrogen,the last time i did that i had serious sexual related issues.

[MR10X]

Pramipexole works on prolactin/19nor gyno symptoms and also boosts libido and hgh production. It is also cheaper than caber.

You definitely should have a strong testosterone base when using any 19nor. Some suggest that you run twice as much test as deca or tren.

I am using Tren A 75mg and Test Suspension 50mg ED and thats plenty of test,i am not having any test related issues with that amount,my sex drive is great.I wanted it to be a cycle high in Tren and not so much test since the Tren is much stronger than test. So far this has been the best combination i have used.

[JK-87]

So using a 19-nor and some test would be ok as long as you keep an anti est like tamox on hand ?

[MR10X]

The nolvadex will help with estrogen related issues,but for prolactin issues you will need something like prami or caber.

[Knockout_Power]

I think what a lot of these guys are sayig is that if you control the estrogen, you reduce progesterone sides as well

[Swifto]

I think what a lot of these guys are sayig is that if you control the estrogen, you reduce progesterone sides as well

As progesterone is synthesised in response to estrogen, thats exactly what I'm saying.