You'll want to read this!

**JPO** · 10-05-2009, 05:53 AM

Originally Posted by Ronnie Rowland

ANSWERS Above in bold.

True gent.

Thanks for taking the time to get back to me. very informative !!!

JPO.

**VASCULAR VINCE** · 10-06-2009, 05:46 PM

is 2 grams of test..... good to take every week during reload????

**coryy650** · 10-06-2009, 09:42 PM

Awesome post/read! thank you!

**DarKOmeN** · 10-07-2009, 08:16 AM

Awesome Thread, Great read.

Gunna try this for sure.

DaRkOmEn

**VASCULAR VINCE** · 10-07-2009, 05:11 PM

ronnnie..how is slingshot better than dc training???? here be the article..please elaborate..

Dogg: Without sounding cocky I am a very advanced bodybuilder down here in San Diego--cruising at 285lbs or so and going up over 300 this year. I came from a very, very hard gaining and skinny genetic structure (140lbs about 10 years ago) so gains have never come easy and I didn?t start super supplements until I was 225 clean (took me 6 years). (I use food as my chief anabolic ).

What I am amazed at is the number of 180 to 220lb bodybuilders on the net who spend ungodly amounts of money and use so many different exotic compounds thinking that it is the end all super stack of all stacks. And they take huge, huge risks in trying to acquire these drugs. I have had an abundance of pro and top amateur friends to gain the knowledge that pretty much these top people in the sport are blasting high amounts of test as the base drug in the offseason to put on pro size with mostly one (sometimes two) other compounds (usually fina, or equipoise or some other non exotic drug and GH if it can be afforded). I firmly believe you will gain 2 times the amount of muscle off of 2 grams of test either alone or with another compound than having some kind of exotic stack involving 3 to 6 exotic hard to get expensive compounds. The receptor site theories have proven to be bunk. The cheapest and best stack I can think of anyone doing to put on major size is a gram or two of test with arimidex to keep water off with fina 75 to 150mg every other day for 4 weeks --then 2 to 3 weeks of cruising (test at 300-400mg and clomid at 5 (day one), 4(day two), 3(day three),then 2 every day for 2 weeks)--and then back on everything full again (maybe equipoise used instead of fina this time) for 4 weeks (then 2 to 3 weeks cruising again etc etc)---if you can?t gain gobs of muscle on that nothing exotic (masteron , etc etc etc) surely isn?t going to do it for you. Testosterone is always the base for any gaining cycle of any pro friend I?ve had or top people with whom I talked with off record. I have never even been over 1000mg of test myself (yet) but I see guys spending and using 10 times the amount I do weighing 70lbs less. I think there is a major problem when the easiest, cheapest and most potent things are right in front of people and they are off searching for substance B-737 undecylate in bulgaria.

**Ronnie Rowland** · 10-07-2009, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by VASCULAR VINCE

is 2 grams of test..... good to take every week during reload????

It can be great for competitors as they become more advanced and can no longer make gains otherwise.

I would never recommend 2 grams of test per week during reloads for newbies or for those who experience bad side effects such as high blood pressure while taking moderate amounts of test.

**Ronnie Rowland** · 10-07-2009, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by VASCULAR VINCE

ronnnie..how is slingshot better than dc training???? here be the article..please elaborate..

Dogg: Without sounding cocky I am a very advanced bodybuilder down here in San Diego--cruising at 285lbs or so and going up over 300 this year. I came from a very, very hard gaining and skinny genetic structure (140lbs about 10 years ago) so gains have never come easy and I didn?t start super supplements until I was 225 clean (took me 6 years). (I use food as my chief anabolic ).

What I am amazed at is the number of 180 to 220lb bodybuilders on the net who spend ungodly amounts of money and use so many different exotic compounds thinking that it is the end all super stack of all stacks. And they take huge, huge risks in trying to acquire these drugs. I have had an abundance of pro and top amateur friends to gain the knowledge that pretty much these top people in the sport are blasting high amounts of test as the base drug in the offseason to put on pro size with mostly one (sometimes two) other compounds (usually fina, or equipoise or some other non exotic drug and GH if it can be afforded). I firmly believe you will gain 2 times the amount of muscle off of 2 grams of test either alone or with another compound than having some kind of exotic stack involving 3 to 6 exotic hard to get expensive compounds. The receptor site theories have proven to be bunk. The cheapest and best stack I can think of anyone doing to put on major size is a gram or two of test with arimidex to keep water off with fina 75 to 150mg every other day for 4 weeks --then 2 to 3 weeks of cruising (test at 300-400mg and clomid at 5 (day one), 4(day two), 3(day three),then 2 every day for 2 weeks)--and then back on everything full again (maybe equipoise used instead of fina this time) for 4 weeks (then 2 to 3 weeks cruising again etc etc)---if you can?t gain gobs of muscle on that nothing exotic (masteron, etc etc etc) surely isn?t going to do it for you. Testosterone is always the base for any gaining cycle of any pro friend I?ve had or top people with whom I talked with off record. I have never even been over 1000mg of test myself (yet) but I see guys spending and using 10 times the amount I do weighing 70lbs less. I think there is a major problem when the easiest, cheapest and most potent things are right in front of people and they are off searching for substance B-737 undecylate in bulgaria.

I think the basic principles in this article are very good. The difference is that I believe the 8-week anabolic cycles used with Slingshot Training work much better than the shorter 4-week anabolic cycles being taught here in this particular article with DC Training.

To recap: Most gain are made during weeks 3,4,5,6,7 and 8. With slingshot training you get an additional 4 weeks to make gains.

**johnq** · 10-08-2009, 12:33 PM

cracking read ronnie,
i think atleast half of this forum is going to try sling shot training, well i am starting this monday cant wait am looking forward to it.
thanks again

**nathantyler** · 10-09-2009, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by Ronnie Rowland

There's a lot of theories on how to make maximum muscle gains while using anabolic steroids . You do not need steroid cycles that are so complicated that you would need a degree in bio-chemistry to figure them out. I want to share with everyone what I have learned in 24 years of experience as both a bodybuilder and personal trainer. I have seen a lot in my days!

Feel free to ask me any questions concerning steroid cycles, etc in this thread. I see a lot of the same old questions being asked and I want to hand out some sound advise for those wanting to know what I have found to work best. It's really quite simple. KEEP ANABOLIC STEROID CYCLES/PRO-HORMONE CYCLES AT 8 WEEKS!

Take care,

Ronnie Rowland

Slingshot Training Overview and Cliff Notes:

Slingshot Training entails belasting for as logn as humanly possible before having to take time off from heavy training. A blast is composed of two training phases-a “reload” and a “deload”. The reload is a higher volume training phase that last 8 weeks and a deload is a lower volume training phase that can last 1 to 2 weeks. Slingshot training works by reloading with more volunme while yopur on an 8 week anabolic steroid cycle or 8 week pro-hormone cycle, etc. Anabolics have been shown to work most effeciently for appoximately 8 weeks. After that point, additional muscle gains slow dramatically and you would need to use higher amounts drugs or supplements to advance further. The problem with that approach is unwanted side effects. So in order to keep making maximum progress you come off a heavy cycle by lowering the amount of anabolics used, do a pct, or bridge with a small dose of anabolics for 1-2 weeks-all while reducing training volume and protein intake. This 1-2 week period of reducing volume and protein is called a deload and it encourages receptor sites to become more sensitive to anabolics so that when you return to another (steroid cycle/reload) you'll make more gains with less side effects. To recap: You use more training volume and take in more protein during your 8 week anabolic steroid cycles so you can get the most out of each cycle. This is your reload ! After the reload you begin deloading for 1-2 weeks by using less training volume, less anabolics and taking in less protein so you can return to another 8 week anabolic cycle/reload 1-2 weeks later and make continued progress. The cycle continues (reload/deload/reload/deload/reload/deload,etc)

Important Note: During 8 week reloads/8 week anabolic steroid cycles, you must be prepared to push training and protein intake to the limit. As you progress, anabolic dosages must also be increased in order to make continued gains!)

It’s up to you as an individual to find out how many sets work best for your body. I prefer 6-12 intense sets per body part during reloads and only 3-6 intense sets during delaods. Experiment with your anabolic cycles to see which drugs/supplements work best. You will make your most gains during week 3,4,5 6,7, and 8. You must also experiment to see if you perform better working each muscle once a week or twice a week as this also varies amongst each individual! It's no secret that the majority of people do best with once a week muscle training but there are some who tend to thrive on training each muscle twice a week with more frequency. For those of you who prefer twice a week muscle training you will still need to stay withing the guidleines I have suggest for training volume. This means no more than a maximum of 12 intense work sets total per week for any major muscle group.

BLAST: You'll want you to put your focus on one long training phase called a "blast". During this blasting cycle you will perform 2 mini-cycles. I refer to them as a reload and a deload. A reload is high volume training cycle and a deload is low volume training cycle. The best plan is to reload for 8 weeks while using anabolic supplements then follow up with a 1-2 week deload while eliminating anabolic supplements or bridging. To simplify things you reload (high volume) for 8 weeks while the anabolics are working at full capacity then deload (low volume) for 1-2 weeks once the body has reached a plateau with 8 weeks of anabolic usage and the high volume training. The benefit of using higher volume training and taking in more protein during an 8 week anabolic steroid cycle is great. Performing higher volume not only damages muscles, it also causes them to respond by activating genes in the nuceli of the muscle cells. During a reload/amabolic steroid cycle you could do 12 sets once a week for your chest for 8 weeks or 6 sets twice a week for chest. Next, after doing high volume (12 sets total per week) for 8 weeks, you will deload for 2 weeks doing only half as many sets (6 sets once a week of 3 sets twice a week). During this two week deload you will reduce or eliminate anabolic supplements depending on what you are using).

Reloading and Deloading : I want to drive this point home so everyone understand the importance of proper periodization! The deload has nothing to do with the amount of weight or training intensity used, only the number of work sets changes. But, its good practive to use lower reps if your joints can handle it (4-8 reps) which means that you can bump up the weight if you are capable of doing so as the number of work sets will be reduced! During a blast, you gain additional strength during a deload, then take these additonal strength gains and break down more muscle tissue during the following reload by performing more work sets while adding in anabolic supplements. This type of repetitive progress is the secret so many are in search of yet few have found!

Pro-bodybuilder’s would not be the size they are today if they lifted the same weights they started out with or used the same low volume programs they used as a beginner to get stronger! I am often asked, "is it really necessary to do both a deload and a reload during a blast"? My answer is yes! - “There are a lot of people who think they are making progressive strength gains but in reality they are stuck in a training rut using the same weight loads over and over again. They will keep returning to train hard but continue using the same weights they used last month while staying on high dosages of anabolic supplements year yet their genetic potential in strength is far from being reached. They get a massive pump with high volume but they do not get any stronger even though they never go off anabolics! On the other hand, there are people who think they are making progressive gains in muscle size because they are getting stronger but in reality their ability to max out muscle size for their genetic potential is not being reached because they are always performing low volume. They use the same low volume approach over and over again while neglecting to go for a serious pump. They also stay on high dosages of anabolics year round instead of cycling off for 1-2 weeks after each 8 week anabolic cycle. They will keep returning to the gym pushing heavy weight loads for only a set or two while making minimal gains in muscle size. Let me be clear, it takes both high volume and low volume to max out your genetic potential while simulataneously cycling anabolic dosages!”

A deload consist of performing about half as many sets while using the same intensity, weight loads and rep-ranges. The entire blast will consist of training each body part once a week or twice a week (depending on your preference) If you prefer once a week training then you can continue doing so indefintely. While some people prefer to train each muscle twice a week instead of once a week. If you fall into this category then you can train each muscle twice a week indefintely. After 2 months of training a muscle once a week you could benefit by switching over to training each muscle group twice a week during the next 8 week reload. Those of you who have been training each muscle group twice a week for 2 months can also benefit by swtiching over to training each muscle once a week during the next 8 week reload but again it's not manadory, but a good way to help prevent boredom/break plateaus!

When training a muscle twice a week you will need to do one heavy training day (lower reps) during your first weekly workout and a lighter training day (higher reps) during second weekly workout. It’s also best to use different exercises on light days. Only when using the Slingshot Super Blast is being utilized should you stick with the same exercises for both heavy and light days (the way they trained in the Arnold era)! When you find you need time off from heavy training adn all anabolic supplements you can do a 1-2 week prime (active or non-active lay-off). A prime is a high rep/low volume/low intensity training phase or total lay-off from training that allows the joints/tendons/nervous system to recover so you can enter back into a blast with full-power. If you go on vacation, etc it would also be considered a prime. Its all depends on the individual how often a prime is needed. I like to do a 2 week prime about every 6 months or so.

Plateauing : A plateau effect will occur within 8 weeks with most steroids/anabolic supplement cycles. This is the perfect time to deload and decrease anabolics. Strength gains occur during a deload due to a rebound effect of stopping anabolics and by putting less demand on the nervous system/joints/tendons by training with only half the volume. The deload primes the body for future gains and allows you to get stronger/bigger during the next reload/anabolic cycle. Cycling in this manner increasing the effectiveness of every 8 week anabolic steroid or pro-hormone cycle. There's no value in going past 8 weeks of using anabolics unless you are cutting and getting ready for a show. Once an 8 week cycle is completed you would have to escelate anabolic dosages much higher to get additional results-hence more side effects would occur and over-training would manifest itself.

Work Sets:There's never a need in exceeding more than a total of 12 intense work sets for any body part each week. After around 12 intense work sets are completed the muscles stop firing. Doing upwards of 20 intense sets will result in injury and total burnout! All to often I see people thinking they need to do 20-25 work sets per muscle group. Now I want to drive this point home-"If you cannot break down your muscles to the max with 6-12 intense work sets total for the week (warm up sets not included) whether you train them once a week or twice a week you have a serious training problem"!

Slingshot Diet:

RELOAD DIET: During a reload you will need to increase protein! Do not exceed around 2 grams of protein per pound of body weight during a reload!

DELOAD DIET: During a deload less protein is needed. Protein intake will need to be reduced by .5 to 1 grams per pound of body weight. During a deload you will need to keep calories the same (maintenance level) so growth can occur or be maintained. Use mostly healthy dietary fats like olive oil and ***** 3's from various nuts and smart balance peanut butter to replace the protein calories that have been removed. However, carbs can remain the same in order to spare the lesser amounts of protein being taken in but if you need to get leaner before the next reload reduce the carbs. Reaching a sticking point after an 8 week reload is normal. The best way to overcome sticking points is by changing your routine with a deload. The reduced protein intake during a deload will improve insulin sensitivity because less protein will be converetd over to glucose and non-stop anabolic usage has been suggested to cause insulin resistance. When more protein/carbs are added during the next reload more amino acids will have the opportunity to be accepted by muscle cells when they are being broken down the most!

Carbs vs fats: In regards to the best diet plan for your body type you must figure out whether you do better on higher carbs or higher fats then go from there. Protein always remains high! If you do better on carbs then keep the fats lower. On the other hand, if you do better on less carbs and more fats keep the carbs lower. Some of you with a very fast metabolism may do better utilizing both a high carb and high fat diet. In that case it's good practiced to alternate protein/carb meals with mostly protein/fat meals to increase your ability to digest larger amounts of food.

PRIME: If you are over-trained you should begin each training cycle by using strategic de-conditioning (priming phase) over a 1-2 week time span. Total work sets and weight loads are reduced during the prime to make the muscle more responsive to the stimulus of weight training. Not training at all will do the same thing! This will help set up an environment for muscle growth to occur during the following blast!

Slingshot your way to the top!

The Slingshot Training System By Ronnie Rowland.”

WARNING: READ FIRST

No liability is assumed by the author for information contained within. Anabolic steroids are illegal in many countries and are not condoned by the author. All readers, are advises that any form of supplements or drugs described may be illegal, prohibited, or used only with a doctors prescription. The author does not participate, advocate, or encourage in any illegal activities. Readers must consult with appropriate legal and medical authorities if not certain about what has been stated in this article. COPYRIGHTED BY Ronnie Rowland....

Introduction:

When many weight lifters hit a plateau, what do they do? They begin to push even harder by adding more intensity to their routine. This kind of thinking is wrong because a muscle has to be exposed to something it is not used to doing without over-training the nervous system and joints. Adding intensity, by way of beyond failure training techniques, is widely known for producing frustrated bodybuilders! It's no secret that progressively adding more weight to every lift is a sure-fire way to increase total lean body mass, given the diet, training volume, and exercise selection is spot on. Almost everyone starts out using low volume. They grow at a phenomenal rate until the body adapts and quits responding. Because some feel the gains were so great using the lower volume approach, they begin to try and lift heavier weights while using the same program for extended periods of time. They put continued pressure on themselves to try to beat personal records each training session in hopes it will somehow further their muscle mass. Unfortunately, they end up with nothing more than chronic injuries and stagnation as a result.

The intelligent trainer's switch-over to using more volume, while the less fortunate keep thinking less is always more! The next mistake comes into play by the trainees who have switched over to using the higher volume approach. Many become so overwhelmed with their newly found muscle mass after having increased the volume that they begin to reason with themselves thinking more must always be done from that point on. They quickly hit a point of diminishing returns and eventually develop over-use injuries and an over-trained nervous system, instead of reverting back to using a lower amount of volume that worked so well at the beginning.

Sometimes their training will take the form of more sets-reps, exercises, intensity, training sessions, etc. Some are in constant search for the latest routines that will shock their muscles even further. However, all this does is hold them back even more because no one can overcome diminishing returns or keep using the same routine for extended periods of time and expect to make good gains. Slingshot Training helps you overcome both of these dilemmas by employing both low volume and high volume during the appropriate time frames!

** As someone who lifts weights, you will be going up against giants. In biblical times David used a "slingshot" to destroy his largest opponent of all, Goliath. Slingshot Training will dramatically change your physique in a short amount of time, trust me on this one.* *

Every time I browse the internet it’s the same old question being asked over and over again; “What’s the best training routine to gain lean muscle mass and strength?” Many of you are jumping from program to program and it’s not really making any noticeable differences in your strength or appearance. Some of you were making gains but have now reached a plateau. Others believe that a properly structured routine won’t really make much difference in comparison to other training programs and you tend to be either an obsessive-compulsive high volume trainees (always going for a pump) or an obsessive-compulsive low volume trainees (always trying to gain more strength). If you fall into any of these categories, I want to share with you what I have found optimal for making forward progress as a weight lifter.

First, not everything that works is good. You can be sincere in what you believe and still be wrong. So far, so good, doesn’t mean you’re not going to have some serious issues with joint and tendon pain later on down the road. All too often a hero on this months muscle magazine turns into a zero a few months down the road because they become injured and can no longer train. Listen carefully, opinions and trends come and go. I get a head ache just thinking about all the high-intensity training techniques such as pre-exhaustion, forced reps, heavy negatives, down the rack, rest-pause, super sets, drop sets, and the list goes on, and on!

Let me be clear, various training techniques have nothing to do with genetic capabilities. There is not one single variable that is the total downfall of not being able to gain more muscle size. Forced reps, rest pause, drop sets; etc will all depict some form of muscular hypertrophy. However, a major problem (other than these techniques being less effective at stimulating muscular size-strength and putting more strain on the joints, tendons, and CNS) is that they take in a much selected group of principles and apply them. The theory of combining all different training techniques to increase muscle hypertrophy is short-sighting the way the human body responds. If genetics dictated the needs for a different training style, then some could use rest-pause or drop-sets and get bigger/stronger than what they could obtain with straight sets, and we know this is not the case! Time has proven that the genetically superior will respond better to all forms of training methods when compared to the genetically inferior. Simply changing the way you create damage by employing various beyond failure training methods does not alter the fact that overtraining of the CNS and joints/tendons will out pace muscular damage. So, it all boils down to finding that one training method that’s not only the most effective for all genetic types, but the safest. It just so happens that straight sets is that one training method. In final, straight sets is the superior training style that out does all the rest when periodized properly!

* * Just because something has been shown to work doesn't mean it’s the best way**

A lot of talented people fail because they don't have a strong work ethic or they get poor information and stick too it. It's very important to get the right information. Do some investigating. Our projection of things is how all of us make our decisions. And all too often, people tend to believe something just because they have heard others say it over and over again. You must resist letting others condition or brainwash you into believing something that is not altogether true. Be skeptical when someone is trying to sell you something. It pays to be defensive because there is always something being promoted as "new and amazing" that turns out to be pure garbage. I'm not telling you that Slingshot Training is the only one way to success, or that all other training systems are wrong. I'm all about teaching others what I have found to be optimal. I get tired of all the silly debates on the internet that means absolutely nothing. For every article debunking a certain method, 25 can be found supporting it. Studies are fine, and theories are great, but reality hits hard and the paper studies that are put out become worthless when the truth is finally revealed. When someone gives the default answer "Well there's not an effective off-season program that will work for everyone in terms of maxing out their genetics potential," I realize they are basically admitting they do not understand how the human body responds to outside stimuli. The big picture is learning what it takes to create an effective progressive over-load (lift more weight) without getting injured and then taking those strength gains and proceeding forward to create a true progressive over-load (performing more sets with heavier weight loads) without developing over-use injuries and over-training. Add the proper nutrition into the mix and that’s how you get results. I refer to this as using a slingshot approach (hurling intensity to the muscles). Link showing pro and cons of low volume and high volume training- Bring Back Hard Work and Volume Training

## Taking it to the edge is what it's all about##

If you gain strength but fail to gain some muscle size over time, it’s because you are not eating enough calories. If you gain strength by way of decreasing training volume (deload) but neglect to increase training volume (reload) during a period of using more calories to put on weight, you will gain more body fat and less muscle size. Combining more volume with extra calories and increased strength gains is what causes maximum growth Then you must periodize these 3 factors so progress and recuperation can be made year round. Training has to do with adaptation. Volumes, Intensity, Frequency and Strength have their limitations. None of them are infinite. For e.g.; If you perform 1 intense set of heavy barbell curls twice a week, the neural pathways will eventually adjust themselves by getting stronger so they can handle an even heavier weight load next time you train. Yes, the biceps will get stronger, but not a lot bigger. Stay with me here! When you take advantage of the added strength gains made by using less volume (deload) and then co-mingle those added strength gains with additional training volume (reload) while not over-training, you can be assured you will grow bigger muscles. That is how you create a true progressive overload! You can use all the fancy beyond failure training methods such as drop sets and rest-pause for hours on end and never create a true progressive overload because limitless adaptation equals a heavier workload in conjunction with additional volume to breakdown down more muscle tissue, while never going past the point of diminishing returns.

A progressive over-load and a true progressive over-load are not one in the same. Creating a progressive over-load is brought forth by being able to lift more weight using the same form, amount of work sets, and rest periods between sets. A true progressive over-load (a phrase I coined) is also brought forth when you can lift more weight using the same form, and rest periods between sets, but the amount of work sets performed must be greater than what’s required to produce a progressive over-load! After each subsequent set that follows the first work set, the type-1 fibers tire out earlier in the set and the type 2 fibers that are most responsible for giving you muscle size-strength take over the load for longer periods of time. By the time you have done only 2-3 intense sets, the endurance fibers are shutting down much earlier in the set and it's mostly the type-2 fibers lifting the weight. This is why volume training works well for pro-bodybuilders. The type-2 fibers must be made to adapt to lift more weight for longer periods of time in order to grow larger. In order to accomplish this feat, you must handle heavier weights over time. By training each bodypart only once a week as a "baseline," you will produce the most size gains with the least amount of effort, all while sparing the joints and central nervous system. Once the body adapts to once a week bodypart training you'll want to periodically hit each muscle group twice a week in order to keep progressing forward at the fastest rate humanly possible! Always training each muscle group once a week or always training a muscle group twice a week stops being the most productive way to train for the more advanced bodybuilder. Once the muscles have fully adapted to the training frequency it should be changed if you are to continue to force the body to adapt. When done correctly this leads to further growth and strength gains! It takes 6-8 weeks for full-adaptation to occur when using anabolics. Full-adaptation is what you want so go with 8 weeks! When you start to feel over-trained during a blast or your joints begin to ache, simply reduce the total work sets by deloading and keep blasting. A longer reload gives the body more time to adjust and you will hold onto the muscle better! LET'S RECAP-THERE IS NO SET LIMIT ON HOW LONG YOU CAN BLAST. THE KEY IS TO DELOAD AND RELOAD THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE BLAST AND THEN DO A 1-2 WEEK PRIME WHEN TOTAL BURN OUT OR A NAGGING INJURY OCCURS.

sorry if it seems off topic. i am new to the whole prohormone and steroid world but very excited about being a part of it. so my question is if i am taking a prohormone called warrior which contains superdrol tren and epistane for about six weeks. what do i need to do for a pct? thanks a lot

**Ronnie Rowland** · 10-10-2009, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by nathantyler

sorry if it seems off topic. i am new to the whole prohormone and steroid world but very excited about being a part of it. so my question is if i am taking a prohormone called warrior which contains superdrol tren and epistane for about six weeks. what do i need to do for a pct? thanks a lot

If you have used any hormone, for any length of time, you should do PCT.
A PCT is necessary for any cycle of prohormones or real steroids .

A good approach to increase LH would be to use Tamoxifen Citrate at around 20 mgs for first week of PCT and for the 2nd week run around 10 mgs. To be safe run Clomiphene Citrate to raise natural test levels. 100 mgs per day during first week and 50 during second week.

Anti-es alone are not always adequate to fully restore natural test levels-hence HCG can be used at 1500-2500 mgs eod for 14 days.

**VASCULAR VINCE** · 10-10-2009, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by VASCULAR VINCE

is 2 grams of test..... good to take every week during reload????

thank you ronnie!!! why would squats... cause overall growth... if injecting test??? does not compute!!

**Ronnie Rowland** · 10-10-2009, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by VASCULAR VINCE

thank you ronnie!!! why would squats... cause overall growth... if injecting test??? does not compute!!

Squats are so intense that they do cause some enodgenous test/gh release. But that's not the reason squats make you grow all over when taking synthetic testosterone . It has to do with improving insulin sensitivity! The legs are the largest muscle group in the body and squats is the king of all exercises. When your legs grow bigger the extra muscle mass increases your metabolism. This noticeable increase in metabolic rate improves nutrient uptake allowing you to consume more calories and not get fat!

A person with a poor metabolism won’t be able to grow muscle and keep bodyfat levels low because they are insulin resistant. Anyone who wants to succeed in building a better body must establish outstanding insulin sensitivity by changing their BMR. When your body deals well with insulin, it will produce a positive re-partitioning effect upon muscle-to-fat-ratio. This means an improved rate in which nutrients are absorbed-hence less adipose tissue build up during a mass phase. Insulin resistance is caused by 4 primary actions 1) Eating too many carbs. 2) Weight gain caused by eating too many calories from carbs and/or fats given protein intake is not excessive. Yes, too much protein can cause you to get fat as well! 3) Eating the wrong kinds of carbs or fats on a long term basis, 4) having a small amount of lean muscle tissue, and/or a lot of bodyfat. The definition of Insulin resistance consists of 2 different things. 1) Muscle cell resistance is when the muscle building hormone-insulin can no longer reach the muscles. Therefore, it won’t be able to drive amino acids and glucose into the cells. This means you will appear flat and not be able to build a substantial amount of tissue. 2) Fat cell insulin resistance means insulin can’t aid with nutrient storage in fat cells and the insulin will not be able to slow down the breakdown of fat.

TRAIN THOSE LEGS HARD IF YOU WANT YOUR WHOLE BODY TO GROW!!!!!!!!!!!!

**zunair** · 10-11-2009, 12:53 PM

Hey i started my cycle two weeks ago using 500 mg testovrion and 200 mg deca per week...im feelng kidney pain on the right...my kidney test was alright ...the creatinine level the uric acid and the urea level n the test was alright...doctor says steroid cause can incraese the creatinine level but its fine...he said ur urea is 33 and its maximum level shud be 45 so drink more water and awl.can anyone plz tellme how to get rid of this pain...im alread drinking 6 litres water per day

**Ronnie Rowland** · 10-11-2009, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by zunair

Hey i started my cycle two weeks ago using 500 mg testovrion and 200 mg deca per week...im feelng kidney pain on the right...my kidney test was alright ...the creatinine level the uric acid and the urea level n the test was alright...doctor says steroid cause can incraese the creatinine level but its fine...he said ur urea is 33 and its maximum level shud be 45 so drink more water and awl.can anyone plz tellme how to get rid of this pain...im alread drinking 6 litres water per day

Are you dieting down or taking anti-es or any other meds/supplements with the test/deca ? How much protein are you taking in per day?

Test/deca should not cause kidney pain. It almost sounds like a possible kidney stone but probably just muscle pain!

**VASCULAR VINCE** · 10-12-2009, 12:12 PM

Ronnie....you say to not change exercises during a reload.....yet continue pounding the same exercises over and over again....do anabolics work better when you do this????

**VASCULAR VINCE** · 10-12-2009, 01:25 PM

Almost forget this one ronnie!!!!!why are you not a big fan of aromatase inhibitors???do they inhibit gains or whats the deal???

**Ronnie Rowland** · 10-12-2009, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by VASCULAR VINCE

Ronnie....you say to not change exercises during a reload.....yet continue pounding the same exercises over and over again....do anabolics work better when you do this????

Of course sticking with the same exercises during a reload makes anabolics work better! Results are measured with a baseline and by constantly changing exercises you are erasing your baseline. If you have no history of making forward progress then how do you know you are progressing. By using the same exercises during a reload/8 week anabolic steroid cycle your results are evident every time and you can keep track when you are capable of adding another rep of adding another pound to the bar.

If you want to see consistent gains in strength and size with a particular exercise, then you're going to have to do it consistently. If squats are your bread and butter exercise for quads then you will need to do squats every week. This is called training in a sport specific manner as it brings forth specific adaptations. Stay with the exercises that give you the most results.

Note: Ronnie Coleman always used the same exercises and it showed!

**Ronnie Rowland** · 10-12-2009, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by VASCULAR VINCE

Almost forget this one ronnie!!!!!why are you not a big fan of aromatase inhibitors???do they inhibit gains or whats the deal???

What I am not a fan of vince is taking anti-es when they are not neccesary and this happens all too often IMO. Anti-estrogens such as arimidex cause joint pain for many and that's my biggest concern. People need to realize these are very powerful drugs that were designed for cancer patients not bodybuilders. They can ruin your joints permanetly! Heres a link you will want to read through. Look at how many are in crippling pain from either using arimidex or having used arimidex. SCARY STUFF! http://www.askapatient.com/viewratin...&name=ARIMIDEX

Some people can take only 1 drop of arimidex and hurt like crazy in their joints (even while using deca .) Drugs like arimidex will put you at a higher risk for clogged arteries by lowering good cholesterol. You need estrogen to help cholesterol levels. The aromatization of testosterone to estradiol helps prevent the negative effects of androgens on serum lipids. In one study 300 mgs of test enanthate was used for 20 weeks with no anti-es. The testosterone showed only a 12% decrease in HDL but when anti-es were introdcued with 300 mgs of test for 20 weeks, the reduction in HDL increased to 25% (thats double!)

Estrogen can increase androgen receptor binding, increase androgen receptors, keep serotonin levels in check-hence allowing for better sleep, more energy, improved mood, and a better sex drive. Estrogen increases GH/IGF-1 and improves glucose utilization. This glucose aid the pentose phosphate pathway which helps dictate the speed muscle tissue will be repaired.

It's no secret that the best mass building steroids are also the ones that convert to estrogen. The extra water retention from estrogen allows you to lift heavier weight-hence an increase in muscle size over time! Use too many anti-es and you might as well take a non-aromatizing steroid like winstrol .

People who notice signs of gyno or who know from past experiences they are prone to gyno should indeed use a small amount of anti-es to help with that particular problem but for those who do not have this issue, then I think it's best to not use anti-es so that maximum gains in tissue can ocurr without having to deal with all the side effects of these powerful anti-cancer drugs!

That's why I am saying to not use anti-es unless they are absolutely needed. Why take another drug that has known side effects if it's not needed? Everyone has different genetics and I think we must be careful that we do not put everyone in the same category. Many have been persuaded in to taking anti-es when they never really needed them.

Note: Quite often side effects experienced during a cycle is from the ancillary drugs like anti-es instead of the anabolics. This can dishearten some people and they come off of steroids, only to pull it's results down and others with it.

**Ronnie Rowland** · 10-12-2009, 08:12 PM

ARIMIDEX SIDES CONTINUED- http://www.askapatient.com/viewratin...&name=ARIMIDEX

TESTIMONIALS BELOW-

Endometrial Stromal Sarcoma OMG, reading all your stories really hits home with me. I had a TAH in January of this year. I have been on Arimidex for about 3 months. Was on Provera before, but it didn't agree with me. I feel sick all the time. Nausea, shortness of breath, insomnia, numbness in hands, joint pain. I could go on. My doc more or less blows it off as just real bad menopause. Have pain on my right side below rib cage for 2 mos. now. Have to have CT Scan tomorrow. I think this drug has alot to do w/my syptoms. Any info is much appreciated. If the scan comes up negative, I would like to go off the Arimidex just to see if I feel any better. I could always try Femera. F 42 3 months 10/11/2009

1 Her2 Brest Cancer This is an update to an earlier rating I added. I was having "Carpral Tunnel" pain my doc refused to believe me when I told her she stated "NO Way" I stopped going to her and started seeing a new oncologist last week she printed out info. on Arimidex and it has now been confirmed this medicine DOES Cause Carpral Tunnel this info. was given me by my Doctor so ladies I am starting Aromasin hope I have better luck with it. I also have Lymphedema and had a blood clot the clot is cleared for now I am still suffering with Lymphedema and Carpral tunnel pain good luck to all who are still using Arimidex Please if you want a copy of this info email me and I will send it to you F 60 1 months 10/10/2009
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4 Stage1 BC/no lymph node removed nausea past two weeks, occasional back pain. I get relief from my chiropracter I have been taken arimidex for 4 months and just within the two weeks I have been feeling nausea. My oncologist says it is not the arimidex. Not really sure why I see her, when I tell her how I am feeling she says it is not the arimidex. I don't know what to do. She says to take prilosec, so I am going to try it now. F 52 4 months 10/7/2009
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4 Breast Cancer Her2+ BRAC2+ Stage 3 Hot flashes, joint pain & stiffness, trigger fingers, tingling & numbness in hands & feet, mouth & throat sores, occasional memory problems, no sexual desire, big weight gain, etc. - I am High, High risk - right mastectomy 2007 Oopharectomy 2008 I'd like to give a little encouragement, my hands are better! It happened around a year out - they were very bad for about a year, I even had an arthritic lump at the joint of one finger - now all gone! Hang in there ladies it does get better! I still have days I ache all over & have other symptoms but I am at least 75% improved & no more cancer! F 51 2 years 10/6/2009
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4 BC, Stage 1, no nodes Occasional severe hip and knee pain of days. I have wondered whether Arimidex depleats minerals. So twice have taken Twin Labs Multi Minerals and the pain was gone after about 3 days. Not sure of cause and effect. But it seems to work for me. Early side effects included feeling tired, slow and old. Of course just knowing you have breast cancer can make you feel that way. Best therapy - spending time with friends and family - keeping your mind on more positive things.Of course, I hope Arimidex lives up to my expectations in the long run. Time will tell. F 69 3 years 10/6/2009

2 Breast Cancer Insomnia, shortness of breathe, waking up at all hours and feeling disoriented. Joint pain and no energy at all. Also when I wake up I feel like I can not breathe at all. Not a good feeling. I was told by my doctor I would not experience any side effects at all. Boy was he wrong. Will stop taking it and see just what the percentage of my getting cancer again with out taking it is. If it is very low then I will take my chances. Really need to be able to work right now. F 57 4 days 9/26/2009
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1 BC Stage 1 ER+ with neg nodes Fatigue, extreme pain in joints, muscles and bones of feet, ankles,legs,knees,back, shoulders, elbows, hands, fingers, wrists, and headaches. Stiffness in ankles, knees upon arising in morning and standing up after sitting for a while. At this point, I question whether to continue this drug. I've been on it for 3 and 1/2 months and feel progressively worse each day. Have begun a "two week vacation" from Arimidex with the approval of my oncologist. When I meet with her in two weeks, since I have no pain since stopping this drug (24 hours), I cannot find a reason to continue it. How can a drug that feels like it is poison in my body actually be doing a good thing for me? Is there an alternative that is any better tolerated? F 69 110 days 9/22/2009
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3 BC + 4 lymph nodes in 2006 Did the mastectomy, chemo and radiation as there is a strong history of breast cancer in my family. I experience bone pain, muscle aches, hot flashes usually preceded by an sudden moment of anxiety, depression (related to not having any estrogen>, thinning hair and lots of headaches. Cranky off and on. If one looks at the literature about Arimidex, the incidences of most of the side effects are supposed to be "rare". If one reads this website, they might not be so rare and when more than one is present, they pile up. I take extra calcium and Vit. D, MSM for pain, Zoloft for the blues, exercise 3 times a week at the gym and living in a rural area, there's always something to be done on the property. I'm feeling a little frustrated because 5+ side effects at a time, are very energy consuming. I'm grateful for the progress in the treatment of BC however, this stuff is rough F 62 23 months 9/20/2009

4 Lower estrogen levels Muscle aches, joint pains, hot flashes. Minor nausea at beginning. Exercise, especially water aerobics, helped with muscle and joint pain. Massages were useful to alleviate muscle discomfort. F 55 4 years 9/19/2009
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1 breast cancer Why dont they mention hair loss as a side effect and how it can age you. but I guess this drug is given to older women only, who cares if it ruins our appearence as long as it keeps cancer away right? I understand this is a fairly new drug with so many side effects. That is frightening. 60 9/19/2009

4 Stage 1 invasive breast cancer Increased joint and muscle pain in legs and lower back. Had previously had mild problems in these areas, but now very intensified. Feel like I'm 100 years old trying to get out of a chair. No hot flashes. Slight weight gain. I have been on Arimidex for six months. Told both my oncologist and surgeon about the severe joint and muscle pain. Both mentioned that patients who experience this have better results. In other words, it's working. I can put up with the aches and pains as long as there is no recurrence of cancer. Have been told I will be on Arimidex for five years. F 73 6 months 9/14/2009

5 Breast Cancer stage 3 Took Tomoxiphen for 2 1/2 years -- experienced weight gain, very achy joints, bone 'pain' extreme hot flashes -- but I was alive -- switched to Arimidex consider it Tomoxiphen (SP) light. Side effects 75% less harsh. Cancer free 6+ years F 56 3 years 9/9/2009
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3 Prevent a recurrence of lobluar car I've been on the drug for a year and have experienced mild side effects: hot flashes, knee joint discomfort, experience stiffness in am. and after sitting for an hour. Some weight gain (5-7 lbos), some loss of libido, and stomach discomfort. Overall, I'm hoping these mild side affects are worth the benefit of my cancer not recurring. F 62 1 years 9/8/2009

2 Breast Cancer Invasive stage 1 Carpal Tunnel was under control before Arimidex but worsen to the point of surgery in July. Surgery is scheduled for Trigger Finger and left hand tendinitis. Feet hurt in the morning when getting out of bed. Brain fog, lack of motivation, severe depression even on Wellbutrin, tiredness, ADD. And on and on. After 6 months I stopped taking Arimidex but symptoms have not completely gone away. Started Tamoxifen in July. Don't have any new side effects except for a 5 lb weight gain which I'll work on. But really, how could I tell with so many side effects still there from Arimidex? Depression is much better! F 59 6 months 9/7/2009

2 Prevent breast cancer return Severe joint pain and swelling of extremeties (now have "cankles"), osteoarthritis in both knees, weight gain (actually happened on Tamoxifen). Ortho. surgeon now talking about knee replacement. I'm not even 50! Will this go away eventually? I went hiking 1 year ago, right AFTER finishing chemo and radiation. Now in so much joint pain that I can hardly walk or get up out of chairs. Have had surgery on right knee. Keep testing me for lupus (always negative). Pain came on sooo fast. Oncologist insists it's the "chemo-pause" and not the medications. F 48 2 months 9/3/2009
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4 breast cancer stage II a i have severe carpal tunnel and tendonitis. i have degenerative disc disease in my kneck. i am tired most of the time and have brain fog. it sounds bad but i have a great quality of life. i exercise five times a week and i am a type a personality, nothing stops me. i feel blessed to be alive. i have one more year to go on this medicine and then hopefully all the side effects will go away. i took tamoxifen for 5 years and then took femara for a few months. femara is awful!!! i could hardly walk up and down the stairs my hips hurt so bad!!! i gave it a four because i feel it is what i am supposed to take and my doctor tells me i am cured. i feel blessed. F 48 4 years 8/30/2009

3 Third BC diagnosis. Foot, leg, shoulder and hand pain. Balance and Fuzzy Brain. Sore throat,ear and headache.Fatigue, I can fall asleep anywhere but can't stay asleep for more than an hour or two hours at a time. Depressed - Have taken anti-depressants since last BC treatment. Also take thyroid medication since last radiation treatment in 2001. Some hot flashes, not like tamoxifin. I gave it a three because I don't know if it works. Took Tamoxifin for five years and have had two recurrances. Since this is my third go around with BC, 1st time '93 Stage II with nodes, Lumpectomey, chemo and radiation. Second time in 2001 -no nodes, Lumpectomy and radiation. So - this times I had a bilateral mastectomy. They found cancer in my left breast too, that was not found in Mammogram. Right breast discovered in mammography. I could not afford to order the refill after having my insurance changed so until I found the $$ I was off the drug for seven days. The quality of my life improved and I didn't connect it to the drug until today. I did let my Dr. know at the first follow up visit that I wanted to stop the drug. He persuaded me to give it another chance. Now - I do not know. I know I get too tired to go back to work right now.I make myself do water aerobics 5 days a week and walk every day. F 69 3 months 8/30/2009

3 Breast Cancer Hot flashes, numbness in right arm and hand, especially at night, weight gain, sleepless nights, had severe arthiritis is left hand, could not use it, severe knee pain. I took my last pill of arimidex in July 2009, the pain in my knee is gone, severe, arthiritis in left hand is gone, no longer take medication for arthiritis. Sleep through the entire night now, numbness in right hand and arm are gone, I feel like a new person. I cannot believe how badly that little pill made me feel. I read the arimidex takes about 4 months to get out of your system, I can't believe how much better I already feel. Now if I can continue to have good mamos, and test results I believe it was worth the pain. I am working on losing the weight. So hang in there if you can bear the side effects arimidex might be worth taking. F 57 5 years 8/29/2009

1 Breast Cancer stage 2 One of the side effects I experienced was Adhesive Capsulitis..Frozen Shoulder. An Orthopedist said that never happens in women my age. An Oncologist told me I was the 4th patient she had with this Arimidex caused condition. Info on that condition was not mentioned anywhere, although I researched extensively prior to taking the drug . I also suffered from drying of mucus membranes & thought I had a UTI. Arimidex caused microscopic blood in my urine, I had severe muscle & bone pain. Made it difficult to stand. Loss of appetite, insomnia and an all around disintigration of my quality of life. Who knows what other damage done by Arimidex the pharmeceutical company omitted from their reports. Poisonous stuff. I stopped the Arimidex after 2 months. Women weighing less than 110 pounds have more severe side effects to Arimidex and many other medications. During Surgery, Chemo & Radiation I used & continue to use supportive & Complementary Alternative remedies. I use Weleda's Iscador..an anti cancer subcutaneous injection that has been used in Europe for over 70 years and other homeopathic, herbal and essential oils, all with the Oncologists knowledge & approval. My diet is restrictive..only organic foods and I avoid a long list of foods. I eat cruciferous vegetables daily & take a cauliflower extract daily along with other vitamins & supplements in an effort to change my estrogen ratio. I think that Arimidex, Famara, Tamoxifen etc MIGHT diminish the recurrence of breast cancer, causing who knows what else? what of the short & long term damage it causes.Since I stopped taking Arimidex I feel great and I look really well! I wouldn't take again it if you paid me. F 67 2 months 8/29/2009
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1 BC Stage 1 Clear Nodes Severe joint pain in feet. Can hardly walk sometimes - especially in the morning. Hot flashes, night sweats, high blood pressure, insomnia, irritable, numbness of toes. Totally miserable! I hate the way I feel taking this drug. I try to stay positive but the side effects are taking their toll. I have an active 9 year old and can’t even enjoy doing the basics because of the joint stiffness/pain. I’m strongly leaning towards stop taking the drug and go for a good quality of life. I’m taking just about every vitamin out there. And the reality of all this is you still have a chance of reoccurrence after taking it for 5 years and living in misery. F 49 2 years 8/28/2009
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1 B/C Stage 1, clear nodes Swelling, severe joint pain in feet, fingers, weight gain, short term memory loss, hot flashes, can not sleep, heat sensitive, shortness of breath, mood swings. I just don't know about this drug. I hate my life the way it is now. I want to be me again. M 51 1 years 8/26/2009

**Ronnie Rowland** · 10-12-2009, 08:16 PM

SIDE EFFECTS OF ARIMIDEX CONTINUED- http://www.askapatient.com/viewratin...&name=ARIMIDEX

1 BC Stage 1 Clear Nodes Severe joint pain in feet. Can hardly walk sometimes - especially in the morning. Hot flashes, night sweats, high blood pressure, insomnia, irritable, numbness of toes. Totally miserable! I hate the way I feel taking this drug. I try to stay positive but the side effects are taking their toll. I have an active 9 year old and can’t even enjoy doing the basics because of the joint stiffness/pain. I’m strongly leaning towards stop taking the drug and go for a good quality of life. I’m taking just about every vitamin out there. And the reality of all this is you still have a chance of reoccurrence after taking it for 5 years and living in misery. F 49 2 years 8/28/2009
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1 B/C Stage 1, clear nodes Swelling, severe joint pain in feet, fingers, weight gain, short term memory loss, hot flashes, can not sleep, heat sensitive, shortness of breath, mood swings. I just don't know about this drug. I hate my life the way it is now. I want to be me again. M 51 1 years 8/26/2009

1 It was prescribed for breast cancer I read extensively on the web about all the horrible side effects this med can cause, and declined it when my oncologist insisted that I take it. A hungry person may accept moldy bread if that is all that is available; it is a shame and abomination that this kind of med is all that doctors can offer to women to prevent cancer recurrence. Living without estrogen is a nightmare. I already have tiny bones, a metal hip, and arthritis in my knee and hands. I know that bone loss occurs immediately when starting this drug, and I don't want to take bisphosphonates, which are prescribed for bone loss. Also, it is difficult to use my hands after chemo because of trigger fingers, etc., and I didn't want to add to my misery with more joint pain. F 69 0 days 8/26/2009

1 Early Breast Cancer -no nodes severe joint pain, aching all over, general loss of interest in life carpal tunnel leading to surgery I would rather take my chance without any drugs. Have been clear for two and a half years and now have a good quality of life. F 58 3 months 8/24/2009
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1 BC IIa I am in my 4th yr. on Arimidex. I have joint pain, hot flashes, vaginal dryness,no discharge but awful burning. I wear long skirts and leave off panties unless I have to go out.I also have neuropathy in my feet which makes walking almost unbearable. My Oncologist said o.k. to take a two week rest but it really didn't cause any difference. I am 70, discovered my cancer when I was 62. I took Tammoxifin for 4 yrs but developed uterine polyps the last two years so i was switched to Arimidex. My joints are so stiff I feel like I am 85 when I try to get up from a sitting of lying down position. I am now tole this medication can be taken indefinitely. I have a lung problem too and when all the pr0oblems are taken together my life is pretty miserable. I had 4 treatments with cytoxin and adrimycin, I had a reocurrence above my ollarbone after 4 yrs and following surgery took 33 radiation treatments. I don't want to face breast cancer again but I'm not sure I can tolerate this much lon F 70 4 years 8/24/2009
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1 Breast cancer Serious joint pain, swollen liver, bone loss, fingers, hips, feet, elbows,..pain everywhere !!!took for 1 yr. weight gain from size 5 to 9, 18 lbs memory not good, carpul tunnel pain, this is no way of life...oncologist said he wasn't exactly what it does to the body....I DO ....taking pills leads to other problems...not going to anymore. Seek natural remedies..Would not recommend this drug to anyone. So sorry I took it. Quit in April and still living with severe pain. Should not be on the market as far as I am concerned....I believe all these drugs are pushed because the dr's get a kick back from all companies who make them ....so sad. F 50 1 years 8/21/2009

2 Breast Cancer Stage II/No Nodes Tailbone pain. Muscle Sorness and some joint pain. Weight gain, hot flashes, night sweats. I'm not sure if the weight gain is due to the Arimidex or the removal of my ovaries. I was on Effexor for hot flashes etc, but had a loss of sex drive, fuzzy brain and still had the hot flashes. So went off the Effexor and have much more energy etc. I see an accupunturist once a week which has helped much more than the Effexor. But my tailbone hurts like heck. Both onocologists don't seem to think it's caused by arimidex. However I stopped taking it 4 days ago and already feel better. So I'm scheduling an appointment with a pain doctor to discuss managment of it and hope to be able to go back on it. I also plan on having my accupunturist work on it as well. I am really not interested in having the cancer return. F 45 8 months 8/17/2009
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3 Breast cancer ,stage 2 with 2 nodes Extreme hot flashes,stiff,swollen, and painful hands,stiff and achy in the morning, weight gain(probably of my own making),short-term memory problems,elevated cholesterol,numbness and tingling of arms while asleep,some fatigue although I work as a nurse in a busy pediatric clinic 2-3 days a week. I gave up yard work for the most part. I also have lower back pain from 2 degenerative discs, and now have developed plantar fasciitis of one foot. I take Effexor ER for the hot flashes, Zocor for cholesterol, and have been doing an exercise for the fasciitis which seems to help. F 66 18 months 8/12/2009
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1 breast cancer stage 1 no nodes Severe joint and bone pain,hot flashes, fatigue,hypertension,elevated cholesteral,weight gain,dry mouth, hair and skin,trigger finger and carpul tunnel,many more I was surprised to see that so many women have developed trigger finger, and carpul tunnel. I talked to my oncologist, and he said it's not a side effect, and sent me to a hand surgeon. he also said it wasn't a side effect,and said the only treatment would be surgerysince the thumbs were completely locked. I stopped taking arimidex 2 months ago, and can now bend my thumbs for the first time in a year.I'm 52 and I feel like I'm 80. It's just not worth it to me. F 52 18 months 8/4/2009

4 Stage 2 in the lymph nodes I have been taking this for one year. There were times that my bones ached, but it seems to come and go. I have had insomina and some anxiety. Since I have hope that this will keep the cancer from reoccuring, I plan to continue to take the Arimidex. Ladies, ask your doctors for help. I take medicine to help me sleep and for my anxiety. Actually, I feel almost normal. F 62 1 years 8/2/2009

3 Breast CA II-III 4 lymph nodes painful bones especially hands and feet, thinning hair, battling weight gain, insomnia, depression, dry skin, headaches, sore muscles and very cranky I still go to the gym 3 times a week and work hard to build up my stamina and strength, take Vit D and Calcium Daily and MSM for the pain. I have so many mixed feelings about taking Arimidex. I don't like that I think I'm taking it out of fear rather than conviction. I'm not working (hard to find a job I want to do) and I'm craving soy (which I don't eat). I know having all the estrogen sucked out of my body has been very very hard for all of me. I question the need for it each day. Am I satisfied with it? I don't know because my fingers really hurt as I type this. F 61 21 months 7/30/2009
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2 stage 2 breast cancer Took it for 9 months. Joint and bone pain--trigger finger--very painful hips and feet--can barely walk in the morning--painful hot flashes with any exertion--memory issues--feel like I'm 90--sex is impossible because of hip pain and atrophied vagina I've been off 4 months and I still have the symptoms--can't do anything I used to w/out pain. No walking, hiking, writing, handiworks, gardening,bicycling, trying on clothing is a joke, can't prepare meals. Have had PT twice and even that became impossible! Will this go away--no one said that it could be this bad. I should have quit sooner but everyone said that the effects would go away. I have a horrible fear they won't. F 57 7/28/2009

3 breast cancer 2B IDC, mastectomy Feet stiff and sore in the morning, initially hard to walk. During the day, must walk often to not feel the same in my feet. Minor memory issues, just not as "sharp" as I am used to. Occasional nausea. My hair returned after chemo, but its much thinner than my original. Last check up good, maybe its helping? F 55 14 months 7/26/2009
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2 BC - lumpectomy and clear nodes General aches and pains in beginning, and itching hands and feet for 6 weeks. My oncologist said that too much sun can cause the itching. So I wear big hats and long sleeves if I know I'll be in the sun. I supplement with extra Vit. D. My hands and knees give me the most trouble. My fingers hurt and I cannot close my hands completely against my palms. I've gone to an orthopedic doctor for my knees. He took x-rays and says it's the beginning of arthritis. My knees ache/hurt the worst while I'm trying to sleep. A bone density test (before I started taking Arimidex) showed I have beginning osteopenia. In the morning I am stiff all over. The more I move, the easier it is. I go to our City rec center every other day and exercise on the recumbent bike for 20-30 minutes and two other machines that exercise the front and back of my legs. It helps my knees. What I HATE the most is the fatigue and no energy. Some days I have to take a nap and other days I muddle my way through. I hav I have had chemo, 33 radiation treatments and now the Arimidex. I complained to my oncologist after two months about my side effects. He was sympatheic, but reiterated that this is the price to pay. From reading other comments, it seems that my side effects are not as severe as others, but severe enough that it effects my daily life. I will continue with it and pray that my body does not have to endure another side effect. I am going to persevere. I am lucky to have my husband, sons, d-in-law and grandchildren, mother and sisters to keep me from dwelling on this. I know there are people having worse experiences. I won't know if this medicine helped until I have been given a clean bill of health......in 5 years. F 68 6 months 7/22/2009

3 Stage 1 BC Positive nodes I have been taking Arimides for about 16 months now. I have had minor side effects, such as achy joints until the past week. I began having numbness and tingling in my hands and feet. I certainly do not want to experience the neuropathy that I experienced with taking Taxol. I've also began having some serious dental problems. I brush 2-3 times a day, and floss daily. I have never had dental problems before. Therefore I am seriously thinking about stopping the medication. I have remained cancer free, but I can't say that it is because of the Arimidex because honestly, I forget to take it sometimes. I really do not take it everyday. I believe that God is the one who heals us of Cancer. I really do appreciate having the Arimidex as source of comfort, believing that it helps, seems to work. F 54 1.5 years 7/19/2009

4 Stage 1 Grade 1 BC I have been on Arimidex for a bit over 9 months now and must say that I feel pretty good. Some minor joint stiffness but I take Glucosamine and Soft Tissue Repair supplements, exercise regularly in addition to strength training 2x a week. I have changed my diet 100% - have not gained one ounce. I also drink wheat grass daily in addtion to pomegranate juice. I see a certified nutritionist weekly and again have to say that the side effects I have experienced such as hot flashes and night sweats, while a bit uncomfortable are not terrible. I wear cotton only, in layers, and keep my enviornment on the cool side. I did experience depression but in all honesty, I don't think it was from the Arimidex, rather it was from the diagnosis. I did start on Lexapro around the same time and feel 100% better. I do feel that I have tolerated the drug very well and do hope that it continues along this path. I share this with you to offer possible suggestions that may ease the side effects for some While I would prefer to not have to be on Arimidex, this is the hand that has been dealt to me and I will do whatever I can to have some control over my destiny - hopefully and to never have to experience BC or any other cancer again, God willing. I will stick with it for as long as deemed necessary. In truth, I am more concerned about what will happen when I complete my five year treatment. Good luck to all. F 50 9 months 7/18/2009
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2 Stage I Breast Cancer Joint pain, loss of muscle strength, hot flashes, arthritis-type pain in knees, fingers, hips and shoulders to name just a few! I quit taking Arimidex as of July 17th. My doctor suggested that I take a "drug holiday" for two weeks in June. I felt so much better during my "holiday". When I went back on the Armidex a month ago all my symptoms came back right away. I discussed all this with my doctor and she agreed that my quality of life was affected by the drug and that I would feel better without it. So I'm done with that "nasty white pill"! F 73 15 months 7/18/2009
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2 breast cancer invasive stage 1 knee pain, hip pain, severe fatigue,weight gain, knee pain is so bad I can barely get up from a chair at times. Hot flashes to the point of misery because I can't hardly stand to wear clothes. I am just miserable I have been taking this for over a year and I just don't think I can continue. I have a Dr appt the 31st. I will post again after that F 54 16 months 7/16/2009

3 Breast Cancer Loss of sexual drive completely, severe ringing in the ears, aches and pains in joints, mood swings, hot flashes I am stopping the Arimidex for one week to see if the ringing stops. I have been on it for about 6 months and the symptoms have gradually gotten worse. I don't think I can stay on it for 5 years. I feel like I am 90 years old most of the time. F 53 6 months 7/14/2009
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2 breast cancer Weight gain, severe hand pain, fatigue, not sleeping good, swelling of legs, hot flashes After reading all the comments, I may stop the Arimidex for a while to see if the side effects go away, especially the horrible hand pain. Can't live with the pain. F 60 1 years 7/14/2009

2 Breast Cancer Severe joint pain; hot flashes I've been on this drug for 7 months and feel horrible. My hip joints, in particular, ache all the time and can barely walk when I get out of a car or after sitting for long periods of time. On occasion, it becomes more of a "pain" than an ache. I take Alleve or Tylenol all the time and sleep on a heating pad at night trying to get some relief. I too have gain about 10-12 lbs and not happy about that. I had no idea that taking this pill would be so debilitating. I'm to the point of want to get off completely. See my oncologist in 2 weeks and will seriously discuss my discontent with him. F 62 7 months 7/13/2009

1 ILC, Stage 1, ER+ Severe joint pain and swelling, especially in my hands. Woke up at night with pain, numbness, and tingling in my arms. Hurt to turn over, couldn't walk without pain in the mornings, etc., etc. Like the person who posted on 7/7, I finally decided that quality of life was more important than quantity. I am 55 and felt like 85. The final straw came when I had to start pulling myself up steps because I didn't have the strength in my knees and hips (I am only 120 pounds!!). After 7 1/2 months on Arimidex, I quit. My oncologist agreed but suggested that I try Aromasin . After 6 weeks on Aromasin and experiencing an increase in the joint swelling and pain in my hands (including a diagnosis of carpal tunnel and trigger thumb to the point I couldn't use it anymore), I quit taking Aromasin. I have now been off any aromatase inhibitor for 6 weeks. Although my thumb is better, I still can't wear my wedding ring because of the joint swelling. The good news is that I no longer wake at night in pain and can now climb stairs easily (no pain in my knees and hips). I encourage others who are experiencing severe side effects to talk to their oncologists about the trade offs (what is the risk of your cancer returning versus the decrease in quality of life due to the aromatase inhibitors). F 55 7 months 7/13/2009

2 BC lumpectomey no lymphs Foggy memory, hot flashes, itchy skin rash, dry eyes, sensitive swelling in ankles and now hip joint pain I have been on this drug for 1 year. Will see my surgeon on Wed. Am going to tell her that I am going to discontinue using Arimidex. Don't want any other drug prescribed. It's not worth the side effects. I had an MRI and mammogram this week. All is clear. Thank you God. F 67 1 days 7/11/2009

1 Breast Cancer stage 3B My main complaint has been Carpral Tunnel Symptoms the pain is severe and is in both wrists and hands, not sleeping, hot flashes weight gain head aches, exhausted and sleepy all the time. I hate this medicine been on 3 months now, was not expecting a new health problem! I expected joint pain but have more than that. I am going to Oncologist today I am wanting off of this poison I know she thinks it is my life but I want to live not just survive! I am too tired to enjoy anything. F 59 3 months 7/9/2009
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1 DCIS SEVERE Bone Pain! Joint pain, fatigue, increased headache, increased hot flashes, Stomach weight gain and bloating, loss of elasticity in skin, increased depression. PURE POISON! After going through DCIS, an auto accident and a brain anuerysm, I have been a trooper and tolerated all of my meds over the last 7 years. That is, until Arimidex! After I completed my Tamoxifin without side effects, I began the Arimidex nightmare. After only 2 weeks I began feeling fatigued and noticed that all my bones were sore. As weeks went on, I could barely get out of bed without crying from the pain in all my bones. I tolerated the increase in headaches, hot flashes, joint pain and skin changes, but the bone pain and fatigue increasingly worsened. My life seem to stop as I was bed ridden for 6 months. My doctor finally told me that I was experiencing the worse of the side effects and we agreed I should discontinue use. By the time I stopped taking it, I had gained 20 pounds and all in my stomach. I now resort to putting my health in God's hands and enjoying every bit of an active life with my kids! F 42 6 months

Breast Cancer ER+ Fuzzy Thinking, Joint and Muscle Pain, Weight Gain, Brittle nails and hair, Felt like I was living outside of my body. I quit taking Arimidex. Quality of life outweighed quantity by a landslide. I felt so bad while taking the medicine that I did not much care if I lived another day. I have been off for 8 weeks and feel like my old self. The weight is coming off, I have ENERGY, the joint and muscle pain is gone, and my thinking is wonderful. I tried to get the oncologist to reduce the dosage but he would not do it.

**VASCULAR VINCE** · 10-13-2009, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by ronnie rowland;4***116

what i am not a fan of vince is taking anti-es when they are not neccesary adn this happens all too often imo. Anti-estrogens such as arimidex cause joint pain for many and that's my biggest concern. People need to realize these are very powerful drugs that were designed for cancer patients not bodybuilders. They can ruin your joints permanetly! Heres a link you will want to read through. Look at how many are in crippling pain from either using arimidex or having used arimidex. Scary stuff! http://www.askapatient.com/viewratin...&name=arimidex

some people can take only 1 drop of arimidex and hurt like crazy in their joints (even while using deca .) drugs like arimidex will put you at a higher risk for clogged arteries by lowering good cholesterol. You need estrogen to help cholesterol levels. The aromatization of testosterone to estradiol helps prevent the negative effects of androgens on serum lipids. In one study 300 mgs of test enanthate was used for 20 weeks with no anti-es. The testosterone showed only a 12% decrease in hdl but when anti-es were introdcued with 300 mgs of test for 20 weeks, the reduction in hdl increased to 25% (thats double!)

estrogen can increase androgen receptor binding, increase androgen receptors, keep serotonin levels in check-hence allowing for better sleep, more energy, improved mood, and a better sex drive. Estrogen increases gh/igf-1 and improves glucose utilization. This glucose aid the pentose phosphate pathway which helps dictate the speed muscle tissue will be repaired.

It's no secret that the best mass building steroids are aloo the ones that convert to estrogen. The extra water retention from estrogen allows you to lift more-hence an increase in size! Use too many anti-es and you might as well take a non-aromatizing steroid like winstrol .

People who notice signs of gyno or who know from past experiences they are prone to gyno should indeed use a small amount of anti-es to help with that particular problem but for those who do not have this issue, then i think it's best to not use anti-es so that maximum gains in tissue can ocurr without having to deal with all the side effects of these powerful anti-cancer drugs!

wow.....this explains everything...thank you!!!

**Critical Mass** · 10-14-2009, 02:02 PM

I am willing to give this a try on the new year. Gonna try atleast 6 months with this system. Then maybe wind off and restoring natural test production. Will I get decent results within 6 months you think,and do I have to increase the dosage for each blast?

**Ronnie Rowland** · 10-14-2009, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by omna82

i am willing to give this a try on the new year. Gonna try atleast 6 months with this system. Then maybe wind off and restoring natural test production. Will i get decent results within 6 months you think, absolutely! and do i have to increase the dosage for each blast? You should increase dosages only when the lower dosages quit working. People gain the most on their very first cycle if it's done right because it shocks the body. So yes, you will probably want to make some kind of increases in dosages during each reload or at least every other reload to shock the body into further development. Diet becomes even more important as you progress. The difference between a Huge bodybuilder and an average size bodybuilder is that the Huge bodybuilder realizes that eating is a full-time job." Eating 24-7 becomes much harder than training as you work your way forward!

Answers above in bold!

**Critical Mass** · 10-15-2009, 06:30 AM

Thank you for telling it as it is.
Great, great thread.

**tripper** · 10-15-2009, 01:57 PM

amazing thread good read!going to give it a go myself, answers alot of queris av had top man

**dosXX** · 10-16-2009, 07:05 AM

Thank you sir for this very informative thread.

**bifda** · 10-17-2009, 09:36 AM

way to go imo, ill be using it when i am ready, thanks ronnie.

**VASCULAR VINCE** · 10-17-2009, 12:30 PM

few more questions ronnie...please explain what you are trying to get out in more depth?....

Quote from Ronnie Rowland; "All to often I see people thinking they need to do 20-25 work sets per muscle group. Now I want to drive this point home-If you cannot break down your muscles to the max with 6-12 intense work sets total for the week (warm up sets not included) whether you train them once a week or twice a week you have a serious problem!"

Quote from Jonathan Perez
Certified ACE / IAFF / IAFC Firefighter Peer Fitness Trainer

"Every pro bodybuilder does only 1 set per exercise to failure to gain muscle mass.....whether they say so or not.

I'm going to answer one of the most asked, most contradicted questions about how to train to gain weight around:

"How many sets does it take to gain muscular size and development?"

Now, I'm referring to sets per exercise.

When you perform a set in a "certain" manner, with the correct amount of weight and for a very "specific" rep range, you will have induced the maximum growth in that muscle.

Anything above and beyond that is just a waste.

The problem today is that when you pick up any bodybuilding or weight gain magazine / book, they all recommend several sets per exercise.

Not only is this very misleading to us average, skinny "hardgainers", but when you see every top pro doing set after set after set, it's no wonder that 99.9% of the average weight training population feels that it takes many sets to get the job done.

Well, to get straight to my point, look very closely at how the pros train, not what they say.

An excellent example is Jay Cutler.

If you ever read his articles, Muscle-Tech ads, or watch his training dvds, you see he follows a very high volume, high set training routine.

He does anywhere from 15-25 sets per muscle!

So, anyone looking at that might say, "Jay's a beast. If he does a ton of sets, then so will I!".

Well, I want you to go and read for yourself an ad that's running in some of the mags, the one titled "A Legacy In The Making".

In there he discusses his training routine.

In there he says, quote, ".....Obviously, you can't train to failure on every set.

I try to put in 100% effort on the last set of each exercise.

For example, if I'm doing chest, I usually do a weight I can handle for 8 to 10 repetitions for 3 sets and maybe a forth set where I go all out........the fourth set is the only set where I go to failure."

So, if he is doing 4 sets for an exercise, the first 3 are pretty much a bunch of warm-ups.

Only the fourth and last set is the one where he goes all-out, 100%, to failure.

As a matter of fact, I remember reading in Muscular Development that he calls these first sets "feeler" sets.

Well, "feeler" sets have got nothing to do with gaining muscle mass, it just serves as a warm-up.

This is the same case with every other pro.

They may say they do 3, 4, 5 sets per exercise, but they only go all-out, to failure on the last set.

In other words...............1 set per exercise to failure.......the one and only set that puts the muscle weight gain wheels into motion.

Observe, my friend, real closely what people do, not what they say, because it can be very misleading.

You may read in an article in a mag and see an individual's training routine, usually inside of a box, containing the name of the exercise, the number of sets and reps.

Well, if you didn't know any better, you would assume that these guys are going all-out, to the max on each and every one of these sets.

That only leads to over-exhaustion, over-fatigue, and overtraining for you and I."

**VASCULAR VINCE** · 10-17-2009, 12:33 PM

can you show us why protein cycling during deload works for muscle building?????

**J_SHOCK89** · 10-17-2009, 04:49 PM

Hey guys over the summer I did a cycle of tren ace, test enan, eq, and in the last ten weeks for week 7-10 i threw in 100 mg of anadrol a day I am a lineman and i play football i recieved major strength and size gains especially hard bulk but i didnt gain any wieght my body fat was 22 now its 18 and i have been off for 10 weeks so i started a new one this week im running the same thing but instead at 5 weeks im goin to run anadrol 50 mgs a day for more weight gain one thing i wanna know is what i could throw into my cycle to give me more mass lean mass im 280 i would like to be 305 any suggestions guys

**UncleTim** · 10-18-2009, 06:28 AM

Damn good post!!! I'll have to re-read this a couple of times.

**Ronnie Rowland** · 10-18-2009, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by VASCULAR VINCE

few more questions ronnie...please explain what you are trying to get out in more depth?....

Quote from Ronnie Rowland; "All to often I see people thinking they need to do 20-25 work sets per muscle group. Now I want to drive this point home-If you cannot break down your muscles to the max with 6-12 intense work sets total for the week (warm up sets not included) whether you train them once a week or twice a week you have a serious problem!"

Quote from Jonathan Perez
Certified ACE / IAFF / IAFC Firefighter Peer Fitness Trainer

"Every pro bodybuilder does only 1 set per exercise to failure to gain muscle mass.....whether they say so or not.

I'm going to answer one of the most asked, most contradicted questions about how to train to gain weight around:

"How many sets does it take to gain muscular size and development?"

Now, I'm referring to sets per exercise.

When you perform a set in a "certain" manner, with the correct amount of weight and for a very "specific" rep range, you will have induced the maximum growth in that muscle.

Anything above and beyond that is just a waste.

The problem today is that when you pick up any bodybuilding or weight gain magazine / book, they all recommend several sets per exercise.

Not only is this very misleading to us average, skinny "hardgainers", but when you see every top pro doing set after set after set, it's no wonder that 99.9% of the average weight training population feels that it takes many sets to get the job done.

Well, to get straight to my point, look very closely at how the pros train, not what they say.

An excellent example is Jay Cutler.

If you ever read his articles, Muscle-Tech ads, or watch his training dvds, you see he follows a very high volume, high set training routine.

He does anywhere from 15-25 sets per muscle!

So, anyone looking at that might say, "Jay's a beast. If he does a ton of sets, then so will I!".

Well, I want you to go and read for yourself an ad that's running in some of the mags, the one titled "A Legacy In The Making".

In there he discusses his training routine.

In there he says, quote, ".....Obviously, you can't train to failure on every set.

I try to put in 100% effort on the last set of each exercise.

For example, if I'm doing chest, I usually do a weight I can handle for 8 to 10 repetitions for 3 sets and maybe a forth set where I go all out........the fourth set is the only set where I go to failure."

So, if he is doing 4 sets for an exercise, the first 3 are pretty much a bunch of warm-ups.

Only the fourth and last set is the one where he goes all-out, 100%, to failure.

As a matter of fact, I remember reading in Muscular Development that he calls these first sets "feeler" sets.

Well, "feeler" sets have got nothing to do with gaining muscle mass, it just serves as a warm-up.

This is the same case with every other pro.

They may say they do 3, 4, 5 sets per exercise, but they only go all-out, to failure on the last set.

In other words...............1 set per exercise to failure.......the one and only set that puts the muscle weight gain wheels into motion.

Observe, my friend, real closely what people do, not what they say, because it can be very misleading.

You may read in an article in a mag and see an individual's training routine, usually inside of a box, containing the name of the exercise, the number of sets and reps.

Well, if you didn't know any better, you would assume that these guys are going all-out, to the max on each and every one of these sets.

That only leads to over-exhaustion, over-fatigue, and overtraining for you and I."

Things I have learned:

1) Pros do not do 20-25 intense work sets to all out failure for each bodypart even though it's claimed in many muscle magazines. Warming up the muscles with multiple warm up sets is very important for injury prevention once someone reaches the pro-level. The magazines are counting warm-up sets and these are not work sets that stimulate muscle growth!

2) Once an area has been injured and/or the stronger you become, the more warm up sets that are required to prevent tendon/joint injury. For example, a beginner or someone with good knees may need only 1 high warm up sets for squats before going heavy but an advanced trainer or someone with knee problems may need upwards of 5 sets before even thinking about hitting it hard.

3) After warming up, a total of 6-12 intense work sets taken to good failure is all that's needed for the entire week. These sets can be done all at once by training each muscle once a week or split in half and training the muscle twice a week.

4) If someone feels the need to perform more than 6-12 intense work sets per muscle group for the entire week they are not training nearly hard enough within each set and are simply going through the motions.

**Ronnie Rowland** · 10-18-2009, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by J_SHOCK89

Hey guys over the summer I did a cycle of tren ace, test enan, eq, and in the last ten weeks for week 7-10 i threw in 100 mg of anadrol a day I am a lineman and i play football i recieved major strength and size gains especially hard bulk but i didnt gain any wieght my body fat was 22 now its 18 and i have been off for 10 weeks so i started a new one this week im running the same thing but instead at 5 weeks im goin to run anadrol 50 mgs a day for more weight gain one thing i wanna know is what i could throw into my cycle to give me more mass lean mass im 280 i would like to be 305 any suggestions guys

The answer you are looking for is- consume more calories from protein and healthy fats!

**J_SHOCK89** · 10-18-2009, 01:29 PM

thanks with my wieght being 280 how many grams of protein should I consume and what would you consider healthy fats

**BJJ** · 10-18-2009, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by J_SHOCK89

thanks with my wieght being 280 1. how many grams of protein should I consume and what would you consider 2. healthy fats

1. 280lbs/2.2 = 127,27kgs
127,27*3.3 = 381grs (13,43oz effective)

2. Eat a lot of Wild Salmon from Alaska and Extra Virgin Olive Oil 25grs ed (0,88oz), plus walnuts and almonds.
EFA Essential Fatty Acid (ALA, EPA, DHA and DPA).

**J_SHOCK89** · 10-18-2009, 02:26 PM

thanks alot guys really helpful

**Ronnie Rowland** · 10-18-2009, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by VASCULAR VINCE

can you show us why protein cycling during deload works for muscle building?????

I copied this from another thread of mine-

VERY IMPORTANT: Your main goal while using steroids or pro-hormones is to add mass while minimizing fat gains. It's not the drug but the diet that makes this happen! I believe there are still a lot of people on this board taking steroids that are not consuming enough protein to make it happen.

In regards to dieting to put on maximum muscle mass your main objective is to take in 1.5-2 grams of protein per pound of body weight during reloads. When you deload simply cut protein intake by about half and replace it with fats, carbs or both inorder to remain at maintenance level. I wanted to toss something out there for all you guys taking anabolic steroids . If you have read through the Slingshot Training System article you know I believe in protein cycling. Protein cycling while using anabolics is nothing new! Dave Palumbo suggest that protein cycling is anabolic. Vince Gironda was pushing periods of lower protein intake years ago. Tom Platz talked about it in his book "Big Beyond Belief." I believe that constantly taking in high amounts of protein (for i.e.: 2 grams of protein per pound of body weight year round) can make the body become efficient at getting rid of it as waste rather than utilizing it for muscle growth regardless of what you may be using to promote protein systheis. Why? For starters the liver becomes stressed and gains can slow down. Ammonia is a product formed during amino acid deamination and is very toxic to the body. Constanlty overloading your body with excessive amounts of protein in order to achieve more growth does not work as well as one might think.

The key to getting the body to store more protein in the mucles is to first remove excess toxins from kidneys and liver by way of a deload ( a lower volume training phase). This helps the organs to become efficient at storing amino acids in the body rather than getting rid of them as waste. In addition, increasing healthy fat intake while simulataenously lowering carbs/protein during a deload will help increase insulin sensitivity. When insulin sensitivity is high-more amino acids can be accepted into the muscle cells. Fats allow for additional calories to be ingested without decreasing insulin sensitivity like tons of carbs do. And healthy fats do not put undue stress on organs like heavy amounts of protein. The *****-3 fatty acids are somewhat anabolic and significantly improve glucose disposal in both diabetics and healthy humans.

I have learned the best time to load up on protein and carbs is during higher volume training phases (called a reload) where their is a larger demand for such. It's simply not needed during lower volume training phases (deload) unless you are an ectomorph or involved in sports. As with training volumes- protein/carb cycling causes the body to become more efficient at storage of either. I believe lowering protein during a deload tricks the body into becoming very sensitive to the anabolic effects of amino acids just as lowering training volume during a deload encourages the body to become more sensitive to higher training volumes during a reload.. If the body is always being overloaded with large amouts of protein it can down-regulating protein storage. The body is an adaptive machine so realize taking in too much protein or carbs can actually decrease absorption over a period of time. The same rule applies to training volumes!

There are 3 different ways to employ the Slingshot Mass Diet. The key is to keep fats and carbs separated for the most part regardless of the method you choose. You have the option of adding 1 hyperinsulinemia meal (combining saturated carbs and hi gi carbs) once a day. I think most know that Dave Palumbo was known for going to McDonalds once a day and eating fries and burgers for his once a day hyperinsulinemia meal. The rest of his off-season diet consisted of separating carbs and fats to a large degree. Dave's super fast metabolism allowed him to eat a large high calorie meal composed of both fats/carbs on a daily basis. Obvioulsy, not everyone has the metabolic rate to do this. But, if you do have a fast metabolism I would take in this hyper meal either for breakfast in the form of something like whole eggs and pancakes/waffles or during an evening meal post workout for something like red meat and potatoes. Some have such a slow metabolic rate they have to limit hyperinsulin meals to 1-3 times per week. Eat to match your metabolism!

If you are taking in 2 grams of protein per pound of body weight during a reload then you would go down to around 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight during a deload. I usually go down to right at 1 gram with a deload because it gives my body a needed break from the 2 grams during a reload. It's hard on the stomach trying to digest 2 grams of protein per pound of body weight day-in, day-out.

Note: 8 time mr. olympia Lee Haney rarely took in more than 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight each day during his lifting career. I wanted to throw that out there for those who are afraid of losing muscle when decreasing protein during a deload. If you are using only about 1 gram of protein per pound during reloads then around .5 grams of protein per pound of body weight during a deload will work. Lowering protein intake during deloads is only going to help you increase size over time!

NOTE: NATURAL TRAINERS WILL NOT BE ABLE TO STOMACH 2 GRAMS OF PROTEIN PER POUND OF BODY WEIGHT. NO ONE KNOWS THEIR EXACT PROTEIN NEEDS BUT I BELIEVE IT'S BEST TO ERR ON THE SIDE OF HAVING ENOUGH THAN HAVING TOO LITTLE. I HAVE WITNESSED SOME AMAZING TRANSFORMATIONS WITH GUYS USING ANABOLICS ONCE THEY GOT THEIR DIET IN ORDER-MEANING THEY INCREASED BOTH PROTEIN AND CALORIC INTAKE ). THE MAIN GOAL WHILE USING STEROIDS IS TO ADD MASS WHILE MINIMIZING FAT GAINS. IT'S NOT THE DRUG BUT THE DIET THAT MAKES THIS HAPPEN! A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE STILL NOT EATING ENOUGH PROTEIN TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN! I WANT TO DRIVE THIS POINT HOME BECAUSE I BELIEVE THERE ARE STILL A LOT OF PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD AND OTHERS THAT ARE NOT CONSUMING ENOUGH PROTEIN AND CALORIES TO MAKE THINGS HAPPEN!

An interesting interview with Nasser El Sonbaty which supports the principles behind the Slingshot Training System!!!" ]
"You once said that you can maintain your massive size on as little as 100 grams of protein per day. How exactly do you do this and not lose muscle mass?

I have been in this sport for over 25 years now. And as I mentioned before I have been on diets - strict pre contest diets - for 18 years. I should maybe sit down one day and make a crazy calculation of how many chicken breasts I have consumed in all these years, obviously during dieting more than while training off-season. I just got tired of forever eating protein to keep my size up or building it.

If you are on a high protein and low carb, low fat diet, then you have to bump your protein way up (at least up to 300 grams per diet day; and if you are a very big bodybuilder like myself, then you have sometimes/or at least should take about 600 grams of protein per day) otherwise you shrink too much and the uses its own muscle as fuel.

Because I am so sick and tired of protein as a food source, as amino acids and as supplement drinks I decided to eat more carbs off-season in order to compensate for the lack and the lower amount of protein I am taking in. But again, pre contest I just force feed my body to get the highest possible amount of protein into my system. But off-season I do intentionally neglect my daily protein intake.

If you have no problems taking protein in, just go ahead. The more protein, the better the muscles will build up. My off-season weight goes up to 330 pounds. With a higher protein intake off-season, I probably would be even bigger. Also I do have a so-called mesomorph type of body and was very athletic from beginning. And my metabolism is not too fast and not too slow.

If you are for example more an ectomorph type of person, your metabolism is very fast. You have to then eat way more calories than I do and you have to also eat way more frequently than I do. To recap what Nasser said-"The more protein, the better the muscles will build up."

The best time to take in large amounts of protein is during your reloads/higher volume training phases. Like Nasser also stated-he needed a break from all the high protein because it can get old trying to stomach around 1.5-2 grams of protein per pound of body weight every day. This is where the deload comes into play! After 8 weeks of consuming high amounts of protein your digestive enzymes will be ready for a 1-2 week break.

The main take home point is to decrease protein during a deload so that when you come back to a reload you can better stomach the needed protein to make the best gains possible. The second take home point is to keep carbs and fats seperated for the most part adn cut them off at night. If you function better on more carbs you'll need to take in less fats. If you do best taking in more fats you'll need less carbs. Combine these principles with protein cycling and proper periodization in your workouts and you will make the leanest and fastest gains possible.

I realize this is the drug forum but drugs aren't very effective without having the proper nutrition. The veterans on this board are constanlty preaching such but it tends to fall on death ears. I hope people will take the time to study what is written in this thread. I've seen some amazing transformations by guys using steroids when these principles where applied. My motto is if you are going to do something then do it right or don't do it at all..

Workout days:

Meal 1-protein/carbs
Meal 2-protein/fats
Meal 3-protein/carbs (pre-workout meal)
Workout
Meal 4 protein/carbs (post workout protein shake/fast acting carbs)
Meal 4 extended protein/carbs (post workout meal)
Meal 5-protein/fats
Meal 6-protein/fats

Non-workout days:

Meal 1-protein/carbs
Meal 2-protein/fats
Meal 3-protein/carbs
Meal 4 protein/fats
Meal 5-protein/carbs
Meal 6-protein/fats

The first 3 melas can also be p/c while the last 3 p/f. If you are having trouble gaining weight take in one meal each day combined of both carbs and fats. Later in the day is best because eating fats/carbs together are hard to digest and can prevent you from eating enough meals. These c/f meals can be fast foods if desired but try to eat as healthy as possible to keep cholestrol in check. Steroids combined with too much fast food is very hard on your heart due to steroids lowering your healthy cholesterol. Cardio done 2-3 times per week for 15-30 mins on non-leg training day will both increase appetite and reduce bad cholesterol.Carbs and fats will be eaten together in one to seven meal per weeks (hyperinsulinemia meal) as opposed to separating them like you should in a cutting phase. Combining fats and carbs in some of the same meals during an off-season blast will create a better muscle building effect and increase energy output so you can lift heavier weights. Increased insulin levels obtained by combining hi gi carbs and saturated fats during a blasting mass phase will help suppress the muscle wasting hormone cortisol which induces protein synthesis. Elevated insulin levels will also down regulate SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin). High SHBG levels are one of the main culprits when testosterone is no longer working in conjunction with a good training program. SHBG prevents testosterone from fitting into the receptors. (Bound testosterone) equals about 97-99 percent of total testosterone circulation while (free testosterone) equals about 1-3 percent of total test. When SHGB levels are kept low it allows free testosterone to fit into the receptor and make muscles grow at a faster rate. Therefore, making a low carb diet or low fat diet, less than optimal during a bulking up phase! There's no value in mixing a lot of carbs and fat together in one meal (except the once daily hyperinsulinemia meal) because doing so will slow down the digestive tract and cause bloating-hence preventing you from eating enough clean foods to put on size! It can also cause cause health problems and fat gain. My definition of "hyperinsulinemia" is simpy an insulin spike to the utmost from combining carbs and saturated fats in the same meal

Important Note: If you can't do the diet then I say hold off on taking steroids and pro-hormones until you can get the mindset to do things right.

**Ronnie Rowland** · 10-22-2009, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by VASCULAR VINCE

is 2 grams of test..... good to take every week during reload????

VINCE, I have been helping bodybuilders get ready for shows for a long time now and everyone responds differently to calories and everyone responds differently to certain drugs and dosages of certain drugs.

It's all about finding what it takes to make you grow and diet plays a role. Just because your friend can gain on 2000 cals per day and you need 5000 cals per day to gain does not make it a bad thing. And just because your friend grows on 750 mgs of test per week and you need 2 grams plus per week to grow does not make it wrong!

**johnq** · 10-23-2009, 06:16 AM

Ronnie, i started slingshot training and my cycle 3weeks ago am on reload at the moment everything going well except for the pain in my shoulders.
my cycle is
test e 750 week 1 to 8
deca 400 week 1 to 8
arimidex .50 eod
ive also been on hgh for 9weeks started on 2ius and built myself up to 6ius a day 5on 2off, ill run the hgh for 6months or more
am taking arimidex to prevent gyno which i had in my last cycle.
but am suffering from shoulder pain in both shoulders. so am stopping the arimidex from now. how long do you think it would take for my shoulders to get back to normal and is there anything i can take to make my shoulders feel better.
Cheers Ronnie very good info.

**Ronnie Rowland** · 10-23-2009, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by johnq

Ronnie, i started slingshot training and my cycle 3weeks ago am on reload at the moment everything going well except for the pain in my shoulders.
my cycle is
test e 750 week 1 to 8
deca 400 week 1 to 8
arimidex .50 eod
ive also been on hgh for 9weeks started on 2ius and built myself up to 6ius a day 5on 2off, ill run the hgh for 6months or more
am taking arimidex to prevent gyno which i had in my last cycle.
but am suffering from shoulder pain in both shoulders. so am stopping the arimidex from now. how long do you think it would take for my shoulders to get back to normal and is there anything i can take to make my shoulders feel better.
Cheers Ronnie very good info.

john, I need to know specificially where your shoulders are aching and which exercises you are doing for chest and delts! Also, do you feel it hurting wrose during the performance of any specific chest or shoulder exercises?

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proteen cycling?????

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First Test-E cycle in 10 years