Which AI is safe for 12 weeks, minimal side-effects?

[KimboHalfSlice]

I'm going to do a 12-week cycle of Testosterone and Nandrolone, so I want to take an AI while on-cycle to keep the bloat down (I got massive water retention in my last cycle). I don't want to wipe out my Estrogen level completely, I just want to take it down a few notches.

I was gonna go with taking Arimidex 0.125mg per day, but after searching the board a bit I've heard Arimidex can have some bad sides such as joint pain.

I need to pick an AI which is safe to take for 12 weeks straight and will give me minimal side-effects. Any ideas?

[Duma23]

aromasin 12.5mg every day

[J-Dogg]

I'm going to do a 12-week cycle of Testosterone and Nandrolone, so I want to take an AI while on-cycle to keep the bloat down (I got massive water retention in my last cycle). I don't want to wipe out my Estrogen level completely, I just want to take it down a few notches.

I was gonna go with taking Arimidex 0.125mg per day, but after searching the board a bit I've heard Arimidex can have some bad sides such as joint pain.

I need to pick an AI which is safe to take for 12 weeks straight and will give me minimal side-effects. Any ideas?

most AI's cause some joint pain because your estrogen levels get low enough, it dries out your joints.

Some people just bloat so easy, I just get backne (acne on the back).

Have you thought about trying a shorter ester test? Propinate causes less water retention for me.

Keep drinking lots of water and keep the salt low and you can help. some people sweat it out in a sauna or take water pills too.

[marcus300]

You dont want to be cycling at your age, been training 12 months and the state of your diet - http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=403936


so after many threads and nearly all members telling you not to cycle your going ahead anyway and now your asking for help?

[KimboHalfSlice]

I have weighed the benefits, risks, consequences, up's and down's of doing a cycle of Testosterone and Nandrolone at this point in my life.

Marcus you've made it abundantly clear that you think the risks and consequences for me are unacceptable.

I haven't been ignoring what you've said, and I at least respect you for trying to help other people out, but I have made an informed, educated decision about this. I'll address each of the points you make, below:

Regarding my HPTA "not being fully developed" at the age of 22, well I've seen no scientific data to support this. I get boners regularly throughout the day, at work, riding my motorbike, in a restuarant, have done since I was about 11 years old. If anything, I'd like for my HPTA to be weakened. If anything, I would argue that a 22-year-old has a stronger HPTA than that of an 35-year-old, and that the 22-year-old's HPTA can take more abuse.

Regarding my diet, yes it was crap. I'm working on it. I'm not starting my next cycle for another 3 and a half months, and I'm using this time to adjust my diet (it's not easy for someone who's accustomed to eating 2 meals a day and feeling fine). There's one or two guys at my gym who eat really well and I've been asking their advice.

Regarding how long I've been training, it's been about 13 months now. I trained naturally for 9 months before making an informed, educated decision that the risks of taking steroids were acceptable to me, so I went ahead and took Testosterone on its own.

I have done one cycle of steroids so far: 583mg of Test E per week for 14 weeks. It pretty much went fine but I learned two things about my body:
1) I should use hCG because my balls shrink quite bladly
2) I should use an AI because I get a lot of bloat

I've got 3 and half more months to research my cycle and to educate myself. I'll take precautions to minimise the risks as much as possible (such as taking hCG to protect my testicles).

Marcus I appreciate your help, but against your advice I am going to go ahead with this next cycle. I hope you can accept that. I must emphisize something: I have assessed the risks and I find them to be acceptable for me.

I hope you can get past this and "make the best of a bad situation" by deciding to share what knowledge you can to minimise the risks of my next cycle as much as possible.

Here's what I've got planned so far:
Week 1-10: Deca-Durabolin 467mg per week
Week 1-12: Sustanon (or maybe Test E) 583 mg per week
Week 1-4: Dianabol tablets every day, I haven't decided the dosage yet, maybe 40mg per day
Week 1-12: hCG, maybe about 200iu's every day, I gotta look into this more
Week 1-12: Aromasin 12.5 mg every day

Then I'll take absolutely nothing for 2 weeks, and then do:

Clomiphene 100/50/50/50
Tamoxifen 40/20/20/20

[Duma23]

that cycle is a mess why use some random dosages and ud be better of listening to marcus

[marcus300]

Ask an endro about your HPTA, research some studies and you will see that the HPTA doesn't fully develop till around 25yrs old, the main development is up to 21yrs but it isn't fully functional and shutting it down will cause you serious problems, just check some of the threads from guys who did shut it down. Even by your own words you have a very high test level why on earth would you want to shut it down when you haven't even used what you got.

Your diet is rubbish, honest its awful and at your age and test levels you can gain some excellent size if you knew what you was doing, you think getting big is via an injection or tablet and let me tell you its not, its through your diet and your sucks, if you sort that out you will grow and it isn't through drugs at your age.

You have been training for 12 months, my guess is your probably not even training right in that time, its no foundation to train or even take gear, you start loads of threads asking the same thing all the time and everyone tells you not to cycle but you dont listen, your waiting for some young kid who is cycling to advice you.

You need to stop,slow down and build some natural mass from some hard training and get your diet in order and dont shut down your HPTA.

Everyone as advised you not to take gear, so why do you keep starting threads?? your not looking for the correct answer but what you want to hear.

[KimboHalfSlice]

that cycle is a mess why use some random dosages and ud be better of listening to marcus

That's funny... the cycle I proposed is almost identical to another guy's cycle which was deemed to be excellent by a lot of people here:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?p=4906182

The dosages I chose aren't random. The 467mg for Deca is equal to 200mg every 3 days. The 583 for Test is equal to 250mg every 3 days.

Any constructive advice to give?

[marcus300]

That's funny... the cycle I proposed is almost identical to another guy's cycle which was deemed to be excellent by a lot of people here:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?p=4906182

The dosages I chose aren't random. The 467mg for Deca is equal to 200mg every 3 days. The 583 for Test is equal to 250mg every 3 days.

Any constructive advice to give?

Who is going to give you advice when you have been training 12 months, your diet is rubbish, your to young and all your waiting for is some 20yrs kid to advice you what you want to hear.

Stop being stupid, slow down and train naturally and use your natural test and build a base to work from, go down to the diet section for a couple of yrs.

I am trying to help you

[marcus300]

I know I am wasting my time and effect with someone like you, but the more you start threads and dont listen the more i will come in every one of them and post why you shouldnt cycle.

I am sick of young kids who dont listen and start thread after thread looking for what they want to hear.

Sort yourself out and stop being stupid,

[keith royd]

I know I am wasting my time and effect with someone like you, but the more you start threads and dont listen the more i will come in every one of them and post why you shouldnt cycle.

I am sick of young kids who dont listen and start thread after thread looking for what they want to hear.

Sort yourself out and stop being stupid,

Aint that the truth !!!

[vatochingon]

that cycle is a mess why use some random dosages and ud be better of listening to marcus

oh yes everyone is better off listening to marcus ha! how old were you did your first cycle marcus?

[forza nuova]

oh yes everyone is better off listening to marcus ha! how old were you did your first cycle marcus?

[vatochingon]

im obviously joking since he posts on like 80% of threads here he obviously knows his shit

but i would like to know if he praticed what he preached back then and if not what adverse effect he has now, if any -- i think that would be alot better then just saying '' your to young to cycle'' and of course the ''go to the diet section'' speech--- real world experience is alot better then just telling people what to do imo -- ya kno?

[KimboHalfSlice]

I make my decisions by educating myself about the facts, and then weighing the advantages and disadvantages. You can disagree with me all you like, but you can't say that I didn't read up on everything and make an informed decision.

Let me give a hypothetical situation: Let's pretend for a moment that injecting any amount of Testosterone at all causes immediate and complete destruction of the HPTA so that you'll never ever produce Testosterone naturally ever again. Imagine that your HPTA gets destroyed even after taking one measeley little shot of Test E in the butt. Even if this were to be true, I would sit down and weigh the advantages and disadvantages. Something like:

On the juice: Very muscular, but have to inject Testosterone every week for the rest of my life
Not on the juice: Slightly muscular, but don't need the Testosterone injections

There's some things in my body that I don't f*** around with, for example I never f*** with my immune system because the last thing I want is an auto-immune disease. I'll f*** with my cardiovascular system for a little while, but not for too long. I did Thai Boxing for 5 years and for those 5 years I doubt there was a single time that I didn't have a bruise on one of my shins, so I don't mind damaging soft tissues.

While I of course enjoy having a fully-functional HPTA, it would not be the end of the world if it was taken away from me. I actually like injecting myself, I find it exciting, I leave all the stuff out the night before and then do the injection in the morning and I feel great about it. Sure that might get really really really really boring after 50 years of TRT but hey it's still not as bad as being diabetic and needing to shoot insulin every day.

If I thought that a cycle of Testosterone and Nandrolone would leave me at a risk of having a stroke, I wouldn't go near it. I've read up on all the bad things that can happen, on all the side-effects, and I've deemed them to be ACCEPTABLE.

You're telling a 22-year-old who has already done a steroid cycle not to do another one for a few years. I don't know what age your are Marcus, but this situation can be compared to telling a 6-year-old boy that he needs to keep the stabilisers on his bike until he's 10. I'd rather take the risk of scraping my knees (and it's a very small risk in my situation).

but i would like to know if he praticed what he preached back then and if not what adverse effect he has now, if any -- i think that would be alot better then just saying '' your to young to cycle'' and of course the ''go to the diet section'' speech--- real world experience is alot better then just telling people what to do imo -- ya kno?

Even if Marcus did a cycle when he was 16 years old, I still wouldn't call him a hypocrite or discredit the advice he's giving. People make mistakens in life, learn from them, and advise others not to make the same mistakes. So even if someone did a cycle when they were 16, that doesn't mean that now later in life they don't realise how bad an idea it was back then.

[vatochingon]

thats not really the point i was going for, listen lets take marcus completly out of the picture ok? ok- i want to talk to someone who cycled while they were to young ( well to young according to most people on here) and depending on current age what adverse effects it caused if any -thats the point i was trying to make

[KimboHalfSlice]

thats not really the point i was going for, listen lets take marcus completly out of the picture ok? ok- i want to talk to someone who cycled while they were to young ( well to young according to most people on here) and depending on current age what adverse effects it caused if any -thats the point i was trying to make

There's gonna be a few people who f***ed up their HPTA.

But see there's two things to consider:
1) Statistics show that 99% of men regain normal natural Testosterone levels within 6 months
2) I'll be taking hCG during my next cycle

I really don't see what I should be scared of here. I'm more than willing to take a 1% chance, I mean I ride a motorbike after all. I'm not a "high risk taker" by any stretch of the imagination, I'm not into XtremeSports or anything, but I'll take small risks.

[vatochingon]

whith that being said i asked everyone to share shuch info sadly i only got one response, it was a guy who ran a deca only cycle when he was 23 and guess what!!!! at the age of 28 nothings wrong no adverse effects at all which contradicts everything ever said on here

[vatochingon]

There's gonna be a few people who f***ed up their HPTA.

But see there's two things to consider:
1) Statistics show that 99% of men regain normal natural Testosterone levels within 6 months
2) I'll be taking hCG during my next cycle

I really don't see what I should be scared of here. I'm more than willing to take a 1% chance, I mean ride a motorbike after all.

you'll be fine!!! im not even worried about running a steroid without test

also your right about the test levels coming back to normal and with a good pct it will get back to normal even faster

[alpmaster]

Ok, I won't talk the same message as everyone else has and always does, but I will tell you this:

It's not a matter of HPTA recovery with you, it's more of the fact that you have no idea how to practice bodybuilding yet you are using bodybuilding drugs. Basically, outside of elite athletics, these drugs are used to support tissue growth. However, you have no idea how to accomplish this, since you can't do it naturally. Look, even if I wrote you out a perfect bulking diet, it still wouldn't be all perfect. You ate twice a day and were fine? And what, now you think you can sit down and have 8 full meals a day? You don't just switch over that easily, it takes years to learn how to diet and train properly AS WELL AS learning to have the will to accomplish it.

It's a recipe of knowledge and will to accomplish what you want, you have very little of each. If you would chose to cycle, go ahead, however, remember the fact that you cannot gain without these drugs (and probably very little with them), so how do you believe you can mantain what they give you in a state when the best thing to keep muscle, testosterone, is at it's lowest (coming off).

I believe you will be dissappointed with your cycle, and if you are not, then you have no idea what you can accomplish naturally.

[marcus300]

im obviously joking since he posts on like 80% of threads here he obviously knows his shit

but i would like to know if he praticed what he preached back then and if not what adverse effect he has now, if any -- i think that would be alot better then just saying '' your to young to cycle'' and of course the ''go to the diet section'' speech--- real world experience is alot better then just telling people what to do imo -- ya kno?

This is what these forums are all about, taking peoples experiences who have been there and done it, now its not a case of if I practised what i preach, its what ive seen and learnt over the yrs so I can pass it on, you have to remember I am not the only one who preaches to younger guys dont do it, its all over the internet by very well rrespected guys., many pro's infact shout this staement out all the time, Dorian in his interview at MD warned young BB's using AAS before things are ready.

To answer your question, i started training when I was around 19yrs old, remember I am 42yrs old now, I started taking gear when i was around 23-24 mark, back in them days there was more problems than starting young, i didnt do pct for yrs and in was deca and dbol cycles what were famous!

And the study Almond quotes from about the recovery of the HPTA with a good pct is done on people who have a fully developed HPTA and not on one that isnt fully functional.

thats not really the point i was going for, listen lets take marcus completly out of the picture ok? ok- i want to talk to someone who cycled while they were to young ( well to young according to most people on here) and depending on current age what adverse effects it caused if any -thats the point i was trying to make

Ive worked with many BBers over the yrs and ive seen first hand what starting to young can do to people, all you got to do is check out the forums and you will see it plain and simple. Ive got a few personal friends who started at a young age and are now on HRT in their 20's, ive seen friends and online friends become very depressed from having low test and the sides what it brings on,trust me the demons you have to cope with are scary!! its a big concern but its doesnt happen in all cases, i know a few guys who have never had a problem and who have fathered children without any difficulties after starting to young and being on and off for 10yrs+, but the majority it does effect in some way the forums show that and from older BB's personal experience.We say it for a reason!!

whith that being said i asked everyone to share shuch info sadly i only got one response, it was a guy who ran a deca only cycle when he was 23 and guess what!!!! at the age of 28 nothings wrong no adverse effects at all which contradicts everything ever said on here

There are always exceptions to the rule, not everyone is the same so your going to hear from guys who have cycled when they were 18yrs and had no adverse effects, but the % is high what it does effect and the risk is there!! dont be blind.

Let me try and explain alittle better why Ive targetted Almond rather than all the other newbies on here trying to cycle at a young age, if it was just about his age I would tell him the risks and conerns and leave him to it, if he was daft enough to not to listen I would just leave the thread, but Almond is different in many ways, its not just one thing wrong with him like his age oh no, he as 3 things not going for him and in bodybuilding you need everything to be in balance to grow muscle, example

1st,,
His diet is rubbish, he doesnt eat like a bodybuilder, he as no idea what foods to eat to build tissue and he isnt going to do any good with a diet like that in maintaining anything, he will be living off the AAS. Diet is key in this game and his doesnt have anything like a good diet and you cant suddenly change it into a good one, it takes time to see what works and how you respond. check his threads out were he posted his diet.

2nd,
He as been training for 12 months, this is no base to work off, I can tell by his diet his training wont be good enough, he needs to build a foundation, strengthen his ligaments,tendons, connective tissue and joints before even considering taking AAS, these takes time and not 8 months worth of training with a sh1t diet and starting your first cycle. If this is done maintenance is far better building tissue becomes easy, its like your body being like a dried sponge if this is done correctly, 8-12 months worth of training is not the way forward in taking gear.

3rd,
His age, even he said today that he as a high test level for his age and would like it to be lower!! come on that is plain stupid and reckless behaviour! why shut it down if its high, USE WHAT YOU HAVE! why risk your hpta not ever getting to full function?

You see its not just his age,its a few things what is wrong with this guy! its many things what build muscle tissue, he as no idea what he is doing and he should stop and go down to the diet section and there are guys down there who will transform his body without AAS, he also needs to sort his training out and build a solid base. Check his threads out he already has a shrunken testicle and bloat problems, i am trying to help him.

People should learn from other peoples mistakes, not do the same ones!

[chuckt12345]

he posts a new thread every day about this,, i really dont know why
he already has his answers

[vatochingon]

This is what these forums are all about, taking peoples experiences who have been there and done it, now its not a case of if I practised what i preach, its what ive seen and learnt over the yrs so I can pass it on, you have to remember I am not the only one who preaches to younger guys dont do it, its all over the internet by very well rrespected guys., many pro's infact shout this staement out all the time, Dorian in his interview at MD warned young BB's using AAS before things are ready.

To answer your question, i started training when I was around 19yrs old, remember I am 42yrs old now, I started taking gear when i was around 23-24 mark, back in them days there was more problems than starting young, i didnt do pct for yrs and in was deca and dbol cycles what were famous!

And the study Almond quotes from about the recovery of the HPTA with a good pct is done on people who have a fully developed HPTA and not on one that isnt fully functional.



Ive worked with many BBers over the yrs and ive seen first hand what starting to young can do to people, all you got to do is check out the forums and you will see it plain and simple. Ive got a few personal friends who started at a young age and are now on HRT in their 20's, ive seen friends and online friends become very depressed from having low test and the sides what it brings on,trust me the demons you have to cope with are scary!! its a big concern but its doesnt happen in all cases, i know a few guys who have never had a problem and who have fathered children without any difficulties after starting to young and being on and off for 10yrs+, but the majority it does effect in some way the forums show that and from older BB's personal experience.We say it for a reason!!



There are always exceptions to the rule, not everyone is the same so your going to hear from guys who have cycled when they were 18yrs and had no adverse effects, but the % is high what it does effect and the risk is there!! dont be blind.

Let me try and explain alittle better why Ive targetted Almond rather than all the other newbies on here trying to cycle at a young age, if it was just about his age I would tell him the risks and conerns and leave him to it, if he was daft enough to not to listen I would just leave the thread, but Almond is different in many ways, its not just one thing wrong with him like his age oh no, he as 3 things not going for him and in bodybuilding you need everything to be in balance to grow muscle, example

1st,,
His diet is rubbish, he doesnt eat like a bodybuilder, he as no idea what foods to eat to build tissue and he isnt going to do any good with a diet like that in maintaining anything, he will be living off the AAS. Diet is key in this game and his doesnt have anything like a good diet and you cant suddenly change it into a good one, it takes time to see what works and how you respond. check his threads out were he posted his diet.

2nd,
He as been training for 12 months, this is no base to work off, I can tell by his diet his training wont be good enough, he needs to build a foundation, strengthen his ligaments,tendons, connective tissue and joints before even considering taking AAS, these takes time and not 8 months worth of training with a sh1t diet and starting your first cycle. If this is done maintenance is far better building tissue becomes easy, its like your body being like a dried sponge if this is done correctly, 8-12 months worth of training is not the way forward in taking gear.

3rd,
His age, even he said today that he as a high test level for his age and would like it to be lower!! come on that is plain stupid and reckless behaviour! why shut it down if its high, USE WHAT YOU HAVE! why risk your hpta not ever getting to full function?

You see its not just his age,its a few things what is wrong with this guy! its many things what build muscle tissue, he as no idea what he is doing and he should stop and go down to the diet section and there are guys down there who will transform his body without AAS, he also needs to sort his training out and build a solid base. Check his threads out he already has a shrunken testicle and bloat problems, i am trying to help him.

People should learn from other peoples mistakes, not do the same ones!

good stuff thanks!!! #3 is just plain crazy!!!!

the reason i asked about it so much is cuz i couldnt get alot of people to share, like marcus said this place is for asking people who have been there and through it before---- understand chuck?

[marcus300]

good stuff thanks!!! #3 is just plain crazy!!!!

the reason i asked about it so much is cuz i couldnt get alot of people to share, like marcus said this place is for asking people who have been there and through it before---- understand chuck?

I am glad I coud answer your questions and now you know why this guy is daft at even considering any kind of cycle at his age,experience and knowledge in training. I hope you make the right desicions all the best.