Are all "Senior" and "Veteran" members on board with 8 week only cycles?

[Ronnie Rowland]

he reccomendeds 8 weeek cycle becuase generally most compounds are the most effective during this time, since the bodys receptors are most sensitive to steroids

their gains are best weeks 1 -6, some go to 8, most people after week 8 still gain but the rate they gain at is nowhere near what they did in the start due to the longer their on, the less sensitive the body is to effects of steroids

I fully agree ranging! Merc is also correct in his statement in one of his post below where he says receptor do not down-regulate. However, I have found that receptors can become saturated to the point the body becomes desensitized.


Think about this- when high amounts of androgenic anabolics steroids such as testosterone enanthate are introduced into the body, maximum receptor site stimualtion occurs during the first 3-8 weeks. After having been on test for around 8 weeks your libido will begin to level out and eventually decline as will your muscle growth as these receptor sites adjust to the exogenous testoserone. It's during this 3-8 week period of enhanced libido that maximum muscle growth occurs! Some of you will make the majority of your gains during weeks 3-6 while others will gain more during week 5-8.

[Ronnie Rowland]

each to their own...

Personally 8 weeks of a longer ester unless it was a high dose shortburst cycle wouldnt be aby god for me,
as Swifty stated longer esters dont do nowt for me till week 6-9 either...............

When high amounts of androgenic anabolics steroids such as testosterone enanthate are introduced into the body, maximum receptor site stimualtion occurs during the first 3-8 weeks. After having been on test for around 8 weeks your libido will begin to decline as will your muscle growth as these receptor sites adjust to the exogenous testoserone. It's during this 3-8 week period of enhanced libido that maximum muscle growth occurs! Some of you will make the majority of your gains during weeks 3-6 while others will gain more during week 5-8.

[Swifto]

When high amounts of androgenic anabolics steroids such as testosterone enanthate are introduced into the body, maximum receptor site stimualtion occurs during the first 3-8 weeks. After having been on test for around 8 weeks your libido will begin to decline as will your muscle growth as these receptor sites adjust to the exogenous testoserone. It's during this 3-8 week period of enhanced libido that maximum muscle growth occurs! Some of you will make the majority of your gains during weeks 3-6 while others will gain more during week 5-8.

For some users, this may be true, but for myself and others, its not.

My labido does not decline, but if it did, I'd put it down to elevated estrogen or prolactin or a decline in endogenous DHEA and/or Pregnenolone.

Again, my gains seem to come in late my friend.

[Swifto]

Some peeps like using a DHT based compound like winny ( in the last part of their cycle) because it's effects on SHBG ..



Merc.

SHBG really doesnt play as bigger role as most think for us bodybuilders/athletes using exogenous testosterone .

Infact, its pretty miniscule.

I've seen Dr. Crisler (Swale) post on this more time than I can remember.

Most AS will actually reduce SHBG anyhow, Testosteron included.

Anthony was on the SHBG bandwagon (I mean no disrespect because hes your friend), but after speaking to those with a little more understanding and credentials, it doesnt seem to be the case at all. If you also review Nandi's posts, youll find the same.

[Merc.]

SHBG really doesnt play as bigger role as most think for us bodybuilders/athletes using exogenous testosterone .

Infact, its pretty miniscule.

I've seen Dr. Crisler (Swale) post on this more time than I can remember.

Most AS will actually reduce SHBG anyhow, Testosteron included.

Anthony was on the SHBG bandwagon (I mean no disrespect because hes your friend), but after speaking to those with a little more understanding and credentials, it doesnt seem to be the case at all. If you also review Nandi's posts, youll find the same.

I am not Friends with Roberts ... I havent sopke to him in a long time ( ever since all that bullshit went down ....

Yea Swifto.. Nandi was a GREAT guy ( Karl Hoffman ... RIP MAN) ....




Merc.

[marcus300]

Fact is, many of us respond in different ways to AAS, the secret is to find out which way is best for you regarding gains vs sides and manipulate the method to your advantage. No matter if I use long esters or short I always respond better in the first half of the cycle and it seems to taper's off in the back half, that is why I prefer shorter cycles linked to a prime, I feel this creates the right environment what suits my body to grow with minimal sides.

[Swifto]

Fact is, many of us respond in different ways to AAS, the secret is to find out which way is best for you regarding gains vs sides and manipulate the method to your advantage. No matter if I use long esters or short I always respond better in the first half of the cycle and it seems to taper's off in the back half, that is why I prefer shorter cycles linked to a prime, I feel this creates the right environment what suits my body to grow with minimal sides.

Agreed.

Experimenting and finding what works for you is paramount.

[Swifto]

I am not Friends with Roberts ... I havent sopke to him in a long time ( ever since all that bullshit went down ....

Yea Swifto.. Nandi was a GREAT guy ( Karl Hoffman ... RIP MAN) ....




Merc.

Karl was a pioneer in this field I think. A great loss.

RIP

[Merc.]

Fact is, many of us respond in different ways to AAS, the secret is to find out which way is best for you regarding gains vs sides and manipulate the method to your advantage. No matter if I use long esters or short I always respond better in the first half of the cycle and it seems to taper's off in the back half, that is why I prefer shorter cycles linked to a prime, I feel this creates the right environment what suits my body to grow with minimal sides.

Totally Agree Marcus .. What works for one may not for another ... I think we should all keep that in mind ....


Merc.

[Merc.]

Karl was a pioneer in this field I think. A great loss.

RIP

Yea he was ... I couldn't agree more .. Too bad more peeps dont read the articles he has written ...

I have tons of his stuff.. Maybe I should post a few of his reads up so some of the newer guys can check em out ...



Merc.

[VASCULAR VINCE]

Fact is, many of us respond in different ways to AAS, the secret is to find out which way is best for you regarding gains vs sides and manipulate the method to your advantage. No matter if I use long esters or short I always respond better in the first half of the cycle and it seems to taper's off in the back half, that is why I prefer shorter cycles linked to a prime, I feel this creates the right environment what suits my body to grow with minimal sides.

marcus.....my gains are mostly.... weeks 4/5/6/7.....

[Ronnie Rowland]

For some users, this may be true, but for myself and others, its not.

My labido does not decline, but if it did, I'd put it down to elevated estrogen or prolactin or a decline in endogenous DHEA and/or Pregnenolone.

Again, my gains seem to come in late my friend.

Swifto, when do your gains come during a cycle?

Can you give me a sample cycle and when you make the most gains and I will show you how I would apply it to Slingshot Training.

thank you!

Ronnie

[Ronnie Rowland]

.....

[Ronnie Rowland]

Fact is, many of us respond in different ways to AAS, the secret is to find out which way is best for you regarding gains vs sides and manipulate the method to your advantage.

That's the way I see it marcus even though I believe in reloading and deloading during specific time frames. What works for one is not going to work for all.

[Swifto]

Swifto, when do your gains come during a cycle?

Can you give me a sample cycle and when you make the most gains and I will show you how I would apply it to Slingshot Training.

thank you!

Ronnie

My gains in strength and LBM seem to come after week 6-8, thats if I was using a long acting ester, like Enanthate . I do gain additional strength before then and water weight if not using an AI, but its not like the increases I get after weeks 6-8. It then carries on for a further 5-6 weeks, then will tail off if I dont add a compound or increase the dose(s).

I use a similar program to the sling shot program (peroidization), that adds volume and reduces it. I also incorperate HIT during the "deload" for around 3-4 weeks, then go back to adding volume for a further 4-5 weeks.

[Ronnie Rowland]

For some users, this may be true, but for myself and others, its not.

My labido does not decline, but if it did, I'd put it down to elevated estrogen or prolactin or a decline in endogenous DHEA and/or Pregnenolone.

Again, my gains seem to come in late my friend.

My increase in libido certainly levels out within 8 weeks but it doesnt decline until later down the road. I should have been more clear with that statement..Thanks for bringing that too my attention!

[07sandiegomuscle]

So Ronnie, with you comments about 8 week cycles you are not saying you think all cycles/recommended cycles should be revised to 8 weeks? But you are just putting forth a whole other way to take gear and gain muscle, which is mostly aimed to builders who are on gear a lot of the year? I understand the 8 week load and the 2 week deload concept. But what is the exact gear regimen? When do you quit? When you are not using gear do you still lift weights like you recommend- with fewer sets that is contrary to the way most people lift right now these days? Thanks

[AlphaMaleDawg]

i actually feel like I made better progress week 8-10 of my test-e cycle. call me crazy but thats what it seems like. my arms look better at least

[Ronnie Rowland]

My gains in strength and LBM seem to come after week 6-8, thats if I was using a long acting ester, like Enanthate . I do gain additional strength before then and water weight if not using an AI, but its not like the increases I get after weeks 6-8. It then carries on for a further 5-6 weeks, then will tail off if I dont add a compound or increase the dose(s).

I use a similar program to the sling shot program (peroidization), that adds volume and reduces it. I also incorperate HIT during the "deload" for around 3-4 weeks, then go back to adding volume for a further 4-5 weeks.

Swifto, I understand now what you are saying. I personally, have never heard of anyone making good past 8-10 weeks max but I am not doubting you. There are always going to be a few exceptions!

I will use a cycle that one of my new clients is incorporating in preparing for his next bodybuilding show. During his first consultation with me he complained of not being able to make any substantial gains after around 8 weeks of using test/deca .



Here's the first 3 phases we plan to take him through-

Note: He is prone to gyno so he will be running .5mgs of arimidex eod.
6 ius of GH will also be incorporated non-stop throughout the entire cycle. He would like to increase the GH dosages during each subsequent phase but cannot afford to do so.


FIRST PHASE-
Weeks 1-8: 1 gram of test enanthate per week (RELOAD)
Weeks 1-8: 400 mgs of tren enanthate per week (RELOAD)
Weeks 1-8: 50 mgs of anadrol daily (RELOAD)
Weeks 9-10: (500 mgs of test enathate per week) (DELOAD)

SECOND PHASE-
Weeks 11-19: 1.5 grams of test enathate per week (RELOAD)
Weeks 11-19: 400 mgs of tren enathate per week (RELOAD)
Weeks 11-19: 75 mgs of anadrol daily RELOAD)
Weeks 20-21: ( 750 mgs of test enanthate per week) (DELOAD)

THIRD PHASE-
Weeks 22-30: 2 grams of test enathate per week (RELOAD)
Weeks 22-30: 600 mgs of deca per week (RELOAD)
Weeks 22-30: 50 mgs of injectable d-bol daily (RELOAD)
Weeks 31-32: 1 gram of test enanthate per week (DELOAD)

I HOPE THIS HELPS CLEAR UP SOME THINGS!

[marcus300]

Swifto, I understand now what you are saying.

I will use a cycle that one of my new clients is incorporating in preparing for his next bodybuilding show. During his first consultation with me he complained of not being able to make any substantial gains after around 8 weeks of using test/deca .



Here's the first 3 phases we plan to take him through-

Note: He is prone to gyno so he will be running .5mgs of arimidex eod.
6 ius of GH will also be incorporate non-stop throughout the entire cycle. He would like to increase the GH dosages during each subsequent phase but cannot afford to do so.


FIRST PHASE-
Weeks 1-8: 1 gram of test enanthate per week (RELOAD)
Weeks 1-8: 400 mgs of tren enanthate per week (RELOAD)
Weeks 1-8: 50 mgs of anadrol daily (RELOAD)
Weeks 9-10: (500 mgs of test enathate per week) (DELOAD)

SECOND PHASE-
Weeks 11-19: 1.5 grams of test enathate per week (RELOAD)
Weeks 11-19: 400 mgs of tren enathate per week (RELOAD)
Weeks 11-19: 75 mgs of anadrol daily RELOAD)
Weeks 20-21: ( 750 mgs of test enanthate per week) (DELOAD)

THIRD PHASE-
Weeks 22-30: 2 grams of test enathate per week (RELOAD)
Weeks 22-30: 600 mgs of deca per week (RELOAD)
Weeks 22-30: 50 mgs of d-bol daily (RELOAD)
Weeks 31-32: 1 gram of test enanthate per week (DELOAD)

I HOPE THIS HELPS CLEAR UP SOME THINGS!

Am I reading this right 32wks?

Thats a crazy amount of gear for 32 wks for anyone's standards.

[Ronnie Rowland]

Am I reading this right 32wks?

Thats a crazy amount of gear for 32 wks for anyone's standards.

Yes it is marcus but keep in mind he is getting ready for a big show and he hired me to help get him as big as possible. He's very advanced and has taken much higher dosages (non-stop) in the past. I've actually lowered his dosages. He was stacking large amounts of d-bol and drol together before we began!

[Ronnie Rowland]

i actually feel like I made better progress week 8-10 of my test-e cycle. call me crazy but thats what it seems like. my arms look better at least

You are not crazy. You are very accurate! All of my clients hit a second growth spurt when they deload from weeks 8-10. They also make gains during weeks 3-8 when reloading.

[Ronnie Rowland]

So Ronnie, with you comments about 8 week cycles you are not saying you think all cycles/recommended cycles should be revised to 8 weeks? But you are just putting forth a whole other way to take gear and gain muscle, which is mostly aimed to builders who are on gear a lot of the year? I understand the 8 week load and the 2 week deload concept. But what is the exact gear regimen? When do you quit? When you are not using gear do you still lift weights like you recommend- with fewer sets that is contrary to the way most people lift right now these days? Thanks

Maximum gains are made during weeks 4-8 while reloading with steroids . During the following 2 week deload it's best to keep a base of testosterone in the equation to experince a second growth spurt. This turns into a 10 week cycle. During the next reload you up test dosages and/or add in other compounds for another 8 week reload and then deload for 2 weeks. This turns out to be one extended cycle and gains are much more pronounced.

The concept of using anabolics for 10 weeks and then taking off for 10 weeks is a sure-fire way to lose your gains. You've got to stay on something pretty much year round to keep gains. I am just being honest. You quit using when you want to quit but you won't keep all your gains.

When you quit taking you still lift the same way but some opt to reduce sets by a little because at that point you are simply maintaining. So if you are doing 12 sets for chest you might want to do only 9 sets once you stop using steroids.

[Critical Mass]

how about blast cycle-cruise-blast cycle. (8-6-8 weeks). you will loose some gains when cruising but it looks safer to me.

[Ronnie Rowland]

how about blast cycle-cruise-blast cycle. (8-6-8 weeks). you will loose some gains when cruising but it looks safer to me.

It's certainly an option but it would be best to go with something such as (8R-2D-8R-2D and then take 6 weeks off before returning to another blast. A 20 week cycle is going to work better than an 8 week cycle before taking off 6 weeks.

[ranging1]

& WTf are his credentials? lol, seriously I think he just gets paid to write but may not also be the only authority on the subject. "Dramatically diminish" is to subjective a term w/out data which he doesnt provide. So hes basically just stating an opinion, not fact. Even if he had data its STILL not a fact.

agreed, i really dont like his idea and training protocol, and i know for fact his volume is far to great for me personally, i could never recover from his workouts even on gear BUT his system has seemed to work for alot of people on this board so it does seem to work for some people, it just depends on the individual by the looks of it

I fully agree ranging! Merc is also correct in his statement in one of his post below where he says receptor do not down-regulate. However, I have found that receptors can become saturated to the point the body becomes desensitized.

agreed, their have been studies that show this is one of the main reasons increasing dosages during a cycle is useless becuase their are only limited abilities for recptors to be saturated, after this they have been shown to become desenseatised

Think about this- when high amounts of androgenic anabolics steroids such as testosterone enanthate are introduced into the body, maximum receptor site stimualtion occurs during the first 3-8 weeks. After having been on test for around 8 weeks your libido will begin to level out and eventually decline as will your muscle growth as these receptor sites adjust to the exogenous testoserone. It's during this 3-8 week period of enhanced libido that maximum muscle growth occurs! Some of you will make the majority of your gains during weeks 3-6 while others will gain more during week 5-8.

agree, it seems to be the trend for ALOT of anabolic users, not all of course for yous who seem to gain still further in cycles

Fact is, many of us respond in different ways to AAS, the secret is to find out which way is best for you regarding gains vs sides and manipulate the method to your advantage. No matter if I use long esters or short I always respond better in the first half of the cycle and it seems to taper's off in the back half, that is why I prefer shorter cycles linked to a prime, I feel this creates the right environment what suits my body to grow with minimal sides.

have to agree i think shorter cycles are the better trend

Swifto, I understand now what you are saying. I personally, have never heard of anyone making good past 8-10 weeks max but I am not doubting you. There are always going to be a few exceptions!

I will use a cycle that one of my new clients is incorporating in preparing for his next bodybuilding show. During his first consultation with me he complained of not being able to make any substantial gains after around 8 weeks of using test/deca .



Here's the first 3 phases we plan to take him through-

Note: He is prone to gyno so he will be running .5mgs of arimidex eod.
6 ius of GH will also be incorporated non-stop throughout the entire cycle. He would like to increase the GH dosages during each subsequent phase but cannot afford to do so.


FIRST PHASE-
Weeks 1-8: 1 gram of test enanthate per week (RELOAD)
Weeks 1-8: 400 mgs of tren enanthate per week (RELOAD)
Weeks 1-8: 50 mgs of anadrol daily (RELOAD)
Weeks 9-10: (500 mgs of test enathate per week) (DELOAD)

SECOND PHASE-
Weeks 11-19: 1.5 grams of test enathate per week (RELOAD)
Weeks 11-19: 400 mgs of tren enathate per week (RELOAD)
Weeks 11-19: 75 mgs of anadrol daily RELOAD)
Weeks 20-21: ( 750 mgs of test enanthate per week) (DELOAD)

THIRD PHASE-
Weeks 22-30: 2 grams of test enathate per week (RELOAD)
Weeks 22-30: 600 mgs of deca per week (RELOAD)
Weeks 22-30: 50 mgs of d-bol daily (RELOAD)
Weeks 31-32: 1 gram of test enanthate per week (DELOAD)

I HOPE THIS HELPS CLEAR UP SOME THINGS!

okay ronnie i just lost ALOT of faith in ur knowledge, just becuase of ur exceptional use of oral steroids that just isnt nessecary, the high dosages of injectables is clearly due to his a big guy, but omg the orals!!!!!!!!

also if hes comming up to a bodybuilding competion shouldnt u try avoid alot of aramatising steroids ?

and i noticed how u continueally increase the dosages? though this may increase gains this also does open the user to alot of side effects

why not use a high dosage for 8 weeks, followed by a bridge or lower dosage of steroids for 4-8 weeks, and then again 8 week of high dosages again

^^^^^ i just think that be more suitable to allow better growth with less side effects, u may not grow as much as ur cycle but ull avoid alot of the side effects, plus the bridge can give recptors a break from such huge dosages but also allow the user to maintain more of his mass and then become ready for his next high dosage regime IMO

[Ronnie Rowland]

[QUOTE=ranging1;4919872]agreed, i really dont like his idea and training protocol, and i know for fact his volume is far to great for me personally, i could never recover from his workouts even on gear BUT his system has seemed to work for alot of people on this board so it does seem to work for some people, it just depends on the individual by the looks of it PLEASE QUOTE ME CORRECTLY!!!!! YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE NOT READ ABOUT SLINGSHOT TRAINING. THERE ARE NO LIMITS ON HOW FEW SETS ONE CAN PERFORM.

okay ronnie i just lost ALOT of faith in ur knowledge, just becuase of ur exceptional use of oral steroids that just isnt nessecary, the high dosages of injectables is clearly due to his a big guy, but omg the orals!!!!!!!!ORALS ARE WHAT THIS PARTICULAR COMPETITOR LIKES. PEOPLE HAVE HEARD ME SAY BEFORE THAT I AM NOT A BIG FAN OF ORALS FOR MEN BUT I HAVE TO WORK WITH DIFFERENT PERSONALITIES. SOME OF MY CLIENTS HAVE NEVER USED AN ORAL AND PROBABLY NEVER WILL. ALSO, THE D-BOL TO BE USED IN HIS CYCLE IS 50 MGS OF INJECTABLE PER DAY NOT THE ORAL VERSION. SO YOU HAVE LOST FAITH IN ME BECAUSE I TELL YOU THE TRUTH??? THIS TYPE OF MENTALITY IS WHY TOP-LEVEL COMPETITORS ARE NOT TELLING THE PUBLIC HOW MUCH THEY TAKE!!! THEY ARE NOT GOING TO ENDORSE SOMETHING ONLY TO HAVE IT THROWN BACK IN THEIR FACE.[/B]
also if hes comming up to a bodybuilding competion shouldnt u try avoid alot of aramatising steroids ? NO BECAUSE # 1 HE'S OFF-SEASON. # 2 WHEN PRE-CONTEST COMES AROUND WE WILL JUST INCREASE ANTI-ES TO LOWER AROMATIZATION. I PERSONALLY WOULD NOT TAKE ANADROL BUT HE NEEDS IT TO MAINTAIN STRENGTH WHEN CUTTING.

and i noticed how u continueally increase the dosages? though this may increase gains this also does open the user to alot of side effects IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE PERSON. SIDE EFECTS ARE DIFFERENT FOR EVERYONE SO EACH PERSON MUST DO WHAT WORKS FOR THEM IN REGARDS TO THE AMOUNTS THEY USE AND FOR HOW LONG THEY USE. THIS GUY HAS BEEN AT THIS FOR YEARS AND HAS STALLED IN MAKING FORWARD PROGRESS. ONCE THE SHOW IS OVER HE WILL LET HIS RECEPETORS CLEAR OUT AND THEN ONCE HE DECIDES TO START BACK HE WILL USE A SMALL DOSAGE SUCH AS 500 MGS OF TEST AND 400 MGS OF DECA PER WEEK. HE WILL THEN INCREASE THINGS AS NEEDED WITH EACH RELOAD. KEEP IN MIND THIS VERY AGGRESIVE APPROACH IS NOT RECOMMENDED FOR SOME RECREATIONAL USERS/GYM RAT. BUT, FOR THOSE WANTING TO PUSH THE ENVELOPE IT WORKS MAJIC.
why not use a high dosage for 8 weeks, followed by a bridge or lower dosage of steroids for 4-8 weeks, and then again 8 week of high dosages again I HAVE SEVERAL RECREATIONAL TRAINERS DOING 8 WEEK CYCLES FOLLOWED BY 10 WEEKS OF BRIDGING WITH 300-500 MGS OF TEST (DEPENDING ON THEIR REPSONSE TO THE DRUGS , DIET, ETC) ^^^^^ i just think that be more suitable to allow better growth with less side effects, u may not grow as much as ur cycle but ull avoid alot of the side effects, plus the bridge can give recptors a break from such huge dosages but also allow the user to maintain more of his mass and then become ready for his next high dosage regime THIS IS WHAT THE DELOAD IS FOR BUT YOU CAN BRIDGE DURING ANY RELOAD AS WELL.[/QUOTE]

[spooledup]

This seems to apply to me. I don't think I've ever made gains past weeks 8-10, even after upping the dosage. Seems like weeks 3-6 is where I do the growing.

[audis4]

^^not sure why everyone is giving ronnie such a tough time about his cycle training advice.

Sure maybe not everyone could handle the side effects from these compound but the guy he is training is obviously on a higher level and know how his body responds to these compounds.

I have done some high doses for long periods of time to see how my body reacts and I know what works well for me as a competitive powerlifter.

[Ronnie Rowland]

^^not sure why everyone is giving ronnie such a tough time about his cycle training advice.

Sure maybe not everyone could handle the side effects from these compound but the guy he is training is obviously on a higher level and know how his body responds to these compounds.

I have done some high doses for long periods of time to see how my body reacts and I know what works well for me as a competitive powerlifter.

It's because some people fear what they do not know audis. I've seen natural trainers wrongly judge steroid users for the exact same reason.

[Hatchman33]

each to their own...

Personally 8 weeks of a longer ester unless it was a high dose shortburst cycle wouldnt be aby god for me,
as Swifty stated longer esters dont do nowt for me till week 6-9 either...............

That is why it is good to get test prop or a fast acting test that will get you instant results till the slow esters kick in 6 to 9 weeks down the road.

[Narkissos]

There is no set rule on how long a cycle should be, you need to try various cycle lengths to see which one you respond better to, over many years Ive tried many different dosages and cycle lengths and for me I know which I prefer for sides vs gains.

Agreed.