Help: Low libido on-cycle

[Calebmuscle]

I'm 4 weeks into a cycle of 1 amp Karachi sust EOD and 400mg EQ. My libido is gone... I can barely get wood, and when I do, I have trouble keeping it. My desire isn't there either. I'm 100% sure that my sust is legit as i am intimately familiar with the product. My EQ is definitely EQ as it was made by a good friend who is an extremely experienced brewer.

I've also been taking 50mg Proviron ED, .25mg A-Dex e3d, and 250iu HCG 2x weekly since the start of the cycle... any ideas on wtf could be wrong here? I have good cycling experience, although I haven't gone over 750mg of test e in the past... any idea wtf is going on here? Is it an estrogen problem?

-caleb

[tboney]

Try upping the dose of your adex to .25 ed. Wait a couple of days and see what happens. Get some bloodwork done.

[Merc.]

Its prolactin ...




Merc.

[peachfuzz]

have you checked your blood pressure lately? are you on any other medications?

hard to tell if its estrogen related or not. your taking a reasonable dose of adex however for some individuals any dose of an AI will wreck their libido.

[peachfuzz]

Its prolactin ...




Merc.

thats what it sounds like being the combination of low libido and ED but is prolactin an issue with the cycle he is on as well as the use of an AI?

[Merc.]

thats what it sounds like being the combination of low libido and ED but is prolactin an issue with the cycle he is on as well as the use of an AI?

Yep .. Steroids lower t-3 and in turn increase prolactin ..

It could possibly be estrogen.. too high or too low can cause problems .. To know for sure we would need to see some bloodwork..




Merc.

[Calebmuscle]

have you checked your blood pressure lately? are you on any other medications?

hard to tell if its estrogen related or not. your taking a reasonable dose of adex however for some individuals any dose of an AI will wreck their libido.

My BP is fine... it is 120/70. I have taken this dose of A-Dex (same pharm brand) .25mg e3d w/750mg of test only + proviron with great sucess.

Yep .. Steroids lower t-3 and in turn increase prolactin ..

It could possibly be estrogen.. too high or too low can cause problems .. To know for sure we would need to see some bloodwork..

Merc.

I can't imagine it being prolactin. The only time that I have ever had a prolactin issue was while I was on nandrolone deca ... my nipples leaked and it was godawful. I just squeezed my nips and nothing came out...

None of the drugs that I am taking currently should effect prolactin levels to any great degree (as far as I know).

Is i best to run an A-Dex blast and then back down to a level of .5mg EOD or something along those lines or immeditely begin at .5mg EOD and boost the proviron to 100mgs ED for while?

-caleb

[Merc.]

My BP is fine... it is 120/70. I have taken this dose of A-Dex (same pharm brand) .25mg e3d w/750mg of test only + proviron with great sucess.



I can't imagine it being prolactin. The only time that I have ever had a prolactin issue was while I was on nandrolone deca ... my nipples leaked and it was godawful. I just squeezed my nips and nothing came out...

None of the drugs that I am taking currently should effect prolactin levels to any great degree (as far as I know).

Is i best to run an A-Dex blast and then back down to a level of .5mg EOD or something along those lines or immeditely begin at .5mg EOD and boost the proviron to 100mgs ED for while?

-caleb

Keep in mind there are valid studies that tend to show that AAS lower t-3 ( depending on its ability to convert to estrogen) ) ... Heres a interesting study on the topic ..


anabolic steroids and its impact on thyroid function
[Article in Portuguese]

Fortunato RS, Rosenthal D, Carvalho DP.

Laboratório de Fisiologia Endócrina, Instituto de Biofísica Carlos Chagas Filho, Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro, RJ.

The use of anabolic steroids to increase physical performance and for aesthetic ends has reached alarming indices in the last three decades. Besides the desired actions, several collateral effects have been described in the literature, such as the development of some types of cancer, gynocomasty, peliosis hepatis, renal insufficiency, virilization, amongst others. The most proeminent effect on human thyroid function is the reduction of thyroxine binding globulin (TBG), with consequent reductions of total serum T3 and T4, depending however on the susceptibility of the drug to aromatization and subsequent transformation into estrogen. In rats, anabolic steroids also act in the peripheral metabolism of thyroid hormones and seem to exert an important proliferative effect on thyroid cells. Thus, the aim of the present paper is to review data on the effect of supraphysiological doses of anabolic steroids on thyroid function, showing the danger that indiscriminate use of these drugs can cause to health.

PMID: 18209883 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


So in this study it is basically saying that AAS do decrease t-3 .. They are speaking more about people that are abusing AAS , but none the less it states that there is a relation between taking AAS and thyroid function ..



Also check this one out .... .( this is not the best study for a few diffrent reasons )..


Increased plasma and pituitary prolactin concentrations in adult male rats with selective elevation of FSH levels may be explained by reduced testosterone and increased estradiol production
Y. F. Shi, A. P. Patterson and R. J. Sherins


The roles of testosterone and estradiol in regulating prolactin concentrations were studied in acutely castrated adult male rats receiving subcutaneous Silastic implants of the sex steroids. Testosterone was administered in increasing doses, from subphysiologic to intact levels, both alone and in combination with a small, single dose of estradiol. The study was designed to assess whether a change in the relative rates of sex steroid production could account for an increase in PRL release in the absence of other testicular factors. At very low levels of plasma testosterone, FSH and LH levels were indistinguishable from castrate controls. As plasma testosterone concentration increased, both plasma FSH and LH levels were suppressed progressively to intact levels. When a subphysiologic dose of testosterone was coadministered with a small dose of estradiol, the combined effects produced a midcastrate level of FSH but maintained a normal level of LH similar to the selective increase in FSH concentration observed in men with germinal aplasia. Although Prolactin levels were indistinguishable in intact and castrate controls, [COLOR="darkred"]testosterone replacement by capsule increased prolactin in a dose-related manner so that, at the physiologic level of testosterone, prolactin was elevated two-fold (P less than 0.01),similar to the level achieved with estradiol replacement alone. Pituitary prolactin levels also increased with increasing doses of testosterone but values remained within the range measured in intact controls .When estradiol was coadministered with testosterone, the combination produced different effects depending on the testosterone dose.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS) ......



And this is from UCLA Endocrine Surgery ( They are a well know group of endocronglist at UCLA) - Endocrine Encyclopedia .. See the part I highlighted towards the bottom


Endocrine Encyclopedia
Endocrine Surgery Encyclopedia
T3 (triiodothyronine) test

Definition:
The T3 test measures the amount of T3 hormone in the blood.

Alternative Names: Triiodothyronine; T3 radioimmunoassay

How the test is performed:
Blood is drawn from a vein on the inside of the elbow or the back of the hand. The puncture site is cleaned with antiseptic, and an elastic band is placed around the upper arm to apply pressure and restrict blood flow through the vein. This causes veins below the band to swell with blood.

A needle is inserted into the vein, and the blood is collected in an air-tight vial or a syringe. During the procedure, the band is removed to restore circulation. Once the blood has been collected, the needle is removed, and the puncture site is covered to stop any bleeding.

For an infant or young child, the area is cleansed with antiseptic and punctured with a sharp needle or a lancet. The blood may be collected in a pipette (small glass tube), on a slide, onto a test strip, or into a small container. Cotton or a bandage may be applied to the puncture site if there is any continued bleeding.

How to prepare for the test:
The health care provider may advise you to stop taking drugs that may affect the test (see "special considerations").

For infants and children:

The preparation you can provide for this test depends on your child's age and experience. For specific information regarding how you can prepare your child, see the following topics:

•infant test or procedure preparation (birth to 1 year)
•toddler test or procedure preparation (1 to 3 years)
•preschooler test or procedure preparation (3 to 6 years)
•schoolage test or procedure preparation (6 to 12 years)
•adolescent test or procedure preparation (12 to 18 years)
How the test will feel:
When the needle is inserted to draw blood, some people feel moderate pain, while others feel only a prick or stinging sensation. Afterward, there may be some throbbing.

Why the test is performed:
T3 is measured as part of a thyroid function evaluation. Most of the thyroid hormone made in the thyroid is in the form of T4. The body's cells convert the T4 to T3, which is the more active hormone.

Sometimes it can be useful to measure both T4 and T3 when looking at thyroid function. For example, in some cases of hyperthyroidism, T4 may be normal but T3 will be elevated.

Most of the T4 and T3 in the body is attached to proteins in the blood. These proteins serve as carriers. The T3 test measures both the T3 that is bound to the proteins and the T3 that is "free" floating in the blood. The free fraction is the hormone that is active.

Conditions that increase the levels of the carrier proteins -- such as pregnancy and liver disease -- will falsely raise the T3 level. In these cases, it is useful to measure either the free T3 level or to perform the RT3U test, which gives a measure of the amount of carrier protein.

T4 and T3 are important hormones in the regulation of metabolism. The exact mechanisms are not understood, but it is known that T4 increases the concentrations of numerous enzymes involved in the production of energy in the body.

Normal Values:
100 to 200 ng/dL (nanograms per deciliter)

What abnormal results mean:

Greater-than-normal levels may indicate:

•hyperthyroidism (for example, Graves' disease)
•T3 thyrotoxicosis (rare)
•thyroid cancer (rare)
Lower-than-normal levels may indicate:

•chronic illness
•hypothyroidism (for example, Hashimoto's disease)
•starvation
Additional conditions under which the test may be performed:

•painless (silent) thyroiditis
•thyrotoxic periodic paralysis
•toxic nodular goiter
What the risks are:
The only risks of the test is those minor risks associated with having blood drawn.


Special considerations:
Drugs that can increase T3 measurements include clofibrate, estrogens, methadone, and oral contraceptives.

Drugs that can decrease T3 measurements include anabolic steroids, androgens, antithyroid drugs (for example, propylthiouracil), lithium, phenytoin, and propranolol.......




Link to that website ..
http://www.endocrinesurgery.ucla.edu/about.html

Medical studies are not the end all be all , but there is some interesting info on this topic .. As I said in my other post .. The only way for you to know for sure is get some blood work run ..



Merc.

[tboney]

Keep in mind there are valid studies that tend to show that all AAS lower t-3 ... Heres a interesting study on the topic ..


anabolic steroids and its impact on thyroid function
[Article in Portuguese]

Fortunato RS, Rosenthal D, Carvalho DP.

Laboratório de Fisiologia Endócrina, Instituto de Biofísica Carlos Chagas Filho, Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro, RJ.

The use of anabolic steroids to increase physical performance and for aesthetic ends has reached alarming indices in the last three decades. Besides the desired actions, several collateral effects have been described in the literature, such as the development of some types of cancer, gynocomasty, peliosis hepatis, renal insufficiency, virilization, amongst others. The most proeminent effect on human thyroid function is the reduction of thyroxine binding globulin (TBG), with consequent reductions of total serum T3 and T4, depending however on the susceptibility of the drug to aromatization and subsequent transformation into estrogen. In rats, anabolic steroids also act in the peripheral metabolism of thyroid hormones and seem to exert an important proliferative effect on thyroid cells. Thus, the aim of the present paper is to review data on the effect of supraphysiological doses of anabolic steroids on thyroid function, showing the danger that indiscriminate use of these drugs can cause to health.

PMID: 18209883 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


So in this study it is basically saying that AAS do decrease t-3 .. They are speaking more about people that are abusing AAS , but none the less it states that there is a relation between taking AAS and thyroid function ..



Also check this one out .. Remember high prolactin is well known for its ability to KILL sex drive..

Increased plasma and pituitary prolactin concentrations in adult male rats with selective elevation of FSH levels may be explained by reduced testosterone and increased estradiol production
Y. F. Shi, A. P. Patterson and R. J. Sherins


The roles of testosterone and estradiol in regulating prolactin concentrations were studied in acutely castrated adult male rats receiving subcutaneous Silastic implants of the sex steroids. Testosterone was administered in increasing doses, from subphysiologic to intact levels, both alone and in combination with a small, single dose of estradiol. The study was designed to assess whether a change in the relative rates of sex steroid production could account for an increase in PRL release in the absence of other testicular factors. At very low levels of plasma testosterone, FSH and LH levels were indistinguishable from castrate controls. As plasma testosterone concentration increased, both plasma FSH and LH levels were suppressed progressively to intact levels. When a subphysiologic dose of testosterone was coadministered with a small dose of estradiol, the combined effects produced a midcastrate level of FSH but maintained a normal level of LH similar to the selective increase in FSH concentration observed in men with germinal aplasia. Although Prolactin levels were indistinguishable in intact and castrate controls, testosterone replacement by capsule increased prolactin in a dose-related manner so that, at the physiologic level of testosterone, prolactin was elevated two-fold (P less than 0.01), similar to the level achieved with estradiol replacement alone. Pituitary prolactin levels also increased with increasing doses of testosterone but values remained within the range measured in intact controls. When estradiol was coadministered with testosterone, the combination produced different effects depending on the testosterone dose.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS) ......



And this is from UCLA Endocrine Surgery ( They are a well know group of endocronglist at UCLA) - Endocrine Encyclopedia .. See the part I highlighted towards the bottom


Endocrine Encyclopedia
Endocrine Surgery Encyclopedia
T3 (triiodothyronine) test

Definition:
The T3 test measures the amount of T3 hormone in the blood.

Alternative Names: Triiodothyronine; T3 radioimmunoassay

How the test is performed:
Blood is drawn from a vein on the inside of the elbow or the back of the hand. The puncture site is cleaned with antiseptic, and an elastic band is placed around the upper arm to apply pressure and restrict blood flow through the vein. This causes veins below the band to swell with blood.

A needle is inserted into the vein, and the blood is collected in an air-tight vial or a syringe. During the procedure, the band is removed to restore circulation. Once the blood has been collected, the needle is removed, and the puncture site is covered to stop any bleeding.

For an infant or young child, the area is cleansed with antiseptic and punctured with a sharp needle or a lancet. The blood may be collected in a pipette (small glass tube), on a slide, onto a test strip, or into a small container. Cotton or a bandage may be applied to the puncture site if there is any continued bleeding.

How to prepare for the test:
The health care provider may advise you to stop taking drugs that may affect the test (see "special considerations").

For infants and children:

The preparation you can provide for this test depends on your child's age and experience. For specific information regarding how you can prepare your child, see the following topics:

•infant test or procedure preparation (birth to 1 year)
•toddler test or procedure preparation (1 to 3 years)
•preschooler test or procedure preparation (3 to 6 years)
•schoolage test or procedure preparation (6 to 12 years)
•adolescent test or procedure preparation (12 to 18 years)
How the test will feel:
When the needle is inserted to draw blood, some people feel moderate pain, while others feel only a prick or stinging sensation. Afterward, there may be some throbbing.

Why the test is performed:
T3 is measured as part of a thyroid function evaluation. Most of the thyroid hormone made in the thyroid is in the form of T4. The body's cells convert the T4 to T3, which is the more active hormone.

Sometimes it can be useful to measure both T4 and T3 when looking at thyroid function. For example, in some cases of hyperthyroidism, T4 may be normal but T3 will be elevated.

Most of the T4 and T3 in the body is attached to proteins in the blood. These proteins serve as carriers. The T3 test measures both the T3 that is bound to the proteins and the T3 that is "free" floating in the blood. The free fraction is the hormone that is active.

Conditions that increase the levels of the carrier proteins -- such as pregnancy and liver disease -- will falsely raise the T3 level. In these cases, it is useful to measure either the free T3 level or to perform the RT3U test, which gives a measure of the amount of carrier protein.

T4 and T3 are important hormones in the regulation of metabolism. The exact mechanisms are not understood, but it is known that T4 increases the concentrations of numerous enzymes involved in the production of energy in the body.

Normal Values:
100 to 200 ng/dL (nanograms per deciliter)

What abnormal results mean:

Greater-than-normal levels may indicate:

•hyperthyroidism (for example, Graves' disease)
•T3 thyrotoxicosis (rare)
•thyroid cancer (rare)
Lower-than-normal levels may indicate:

•chronic illness
•hypothyroidism (for example, Hashimoto's disease)
•starvation
Additional conditions under which the test may be performed:

•painless (silent) thyroiditis
•thyrotoxic periodic paralysis
•toxic nodular goiter
What the risks are:
The only risks of the test is those minor risks associated with having blood drawn.


Special considerations:
Drugs that can increase T3 measurements include clofibrate, estrogens, methadone, and oral contraceptives.

Drugs that can decrease T3 measurements include anabolic steroids, androgens, antithyroid drugs (for example, propylthiouracil), lithium, phenytoin, and propranolol.......




Link to that website ..
http://www.endocrinesurgery.ucla.edu/about.html

Medical studies are not the end all be all , but there is some interesting info on this topic .. As I said in my other post .. The only way for you to know for sure is get some blood work run ..



Merc.

So Merc., should we be considering caber or pram in our cycles?? Even those cycles that dont contain 19 nors??

[marcus300]

Ive got to say, it looks like a estrogen problem to me but to be 100% sure you need bloodwork which will give you a better idea what the issue is, it could be to high or to low! its all guess work and you need a blood panel taken to answer your question.

[Merc.]

So Merc., should we be considering caber or pram in our cycles?? Even those cycles that dont contain 19 nors??

Yo Tboney.. From the studies it appears estrogen plays a pretty big role in the whole process of thyroid hormones begin reduced... Which probably explains why a lot of people taking test with a proper dose ( which can vary from person to person) of a AI are not showing increased prolactin levles on thier blood work ..

Due to that I would say most could just control estrogen ( to avoid decreased thyroid hormone levels ) .. Caber could be considered , but I would get some blood work done ( that also included checking , estrogen and prolactin levels ) so you would know for sure...


Merc.

[peachfuzz]

Thanks Merc

[Calebmuscle]

Thanks for the info guys. I was hoping to avoid the on-cycle hormone panel bc I live in NY where it is illegal to get bloodwork from anywhere other than an in-state doc (meaning online labs don't do bloodwork for residents here).

-caleb

[Merc.]

Thanks for the info guys. I was hoping to avoid the on-cycle hormone panel bc I live in NY where it is illegal to get bloodwork from anywhere other than an in-state doc (meaning online labs don't do bloodwork for residents here).

-caleb

Check out the link I posted in this thread below .. It is to a lab you walk into ( and you dont need a Dr script- they provide one for you - or insurance ).. They have really good prices for blood work ..

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...light=lab+test

Only problem is they dont have any locations in NY ( as of right now) ... But On their website they have a locator and if you scroll over NY it says coming soon .. So I dont know how long coming soon means , but it might be really soon ... Maybe you can give one of their offices a call and see if they have any info on some locations opening in NY... Just trying to give you some possible suggestions to may save you some $$$$



Merc.

[charliemurphy229]

Some very good info here, thanks for the link merc, that may come in handy. I hate the libido issues after cycle, i keep some cialis on hand just in case.

[Calebmuscle]

Check out the link I posted in this thread below .. It is to a lab you walk into ( and you dont need a Dr script- they provide one for you - or insurance ).. They have really good prices for blood work ..

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...light=lab+test

Only problem is they dont have any locations in NY ( as of right now) ... But On their website they have a locator and if you scroll over NY it says coming soon .. So I dont know how long coming soon means , but it might be really soon ... Maybe you can give one of their offices a call and see if they have any info on some locations opening in NY... Just trying to give you some possible suggestions to may save you some $$$$



Merc.

Thanks for the info Merc. I checked the place out, but they still aren't in NY. I used to have a lab called Private Labs Testing that helped me out, but they went under (probably for writing out scripts to NY, RI, NJ customers).

I'm actually beginning to think that either there was a bad batch of Karachi sustanon , or I got a really, really good fake bc the funny thing is this... I am an experienced cycler, but have never used anything but UGL and occassionally Iranians. I've had friends who are very good with HG gear and my Sust is from an extremely good source. Guys who EXCLUSIVELY use Karachi Sust tell me that I have a legitimate product from a legitimate source. I'm about 210lbs right now and I am on a recomp diet of 3k-3500kcals per day and I'm not getting stronger or bigger (I would've at least expected something from 850mg of sust per week bc I am not starving, although I am eating basically my maintenance cals).

Another note... maybe it is in my head, maybe not... I added 1/4cc of test prop (25mg) to my Sustanon injection this morning and I have been crawling out of my skin to **** something all morning. I'm not really sure if the prop could act that fast, I just find it odd.

I attached the pic of my sustanon... as you can see, it has the correct ampule BN stamp print, the amp is the correct size/shape and all ampules are filled to slightly over 1ml as expected with this brand.

-caleb

[tboney]

Yo Tboney.. From the studies it appears estrogen plays a pretty big role in the whole process of thyroid hormones begin reduced... Which probably explains why a lot of people taking test with a proper dose ( which can vary from person to person) of a AI are not showing increased prolactin levles on thier blood work ..

Due to that I would say most could just control estrogen ( to avoid decreased thyroid hormone levels ) .. Caber could be considered , but I would get some blood work done ( that also included checking , estrogen and prolactin levels ) so you would know for sure...


Merc.

Thanks bro. Let me ask you this, I have graves disease, had a radio-iodine ablation of my thyroid years ago. I have been on thyroid replacement for years. Will aas' affect the exogenous thyroid levels. I know they can alter endogenous thyroid hormone levels but what about artificial thyroid hormone levels.

[Calebmuscle]

picture......

[dec11]

^^^^on tht sust myself at the mo and last cycle was the same test e, g2g