joints and muscles

[goodguy]

Hi. I've done research on the effect of steroids on body collagen levels especially pertaining to joint degredation wear and tear. I spent the whole day visting forums, medical sites and the such like, and continually saw this one posting which i am sure you will all recognise immediatly as it must have been copied and pasted into every training related forum on the web. And it goes a little something like this :-

" Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

Primobolan , @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing."

Unfortnatly there is nothing to coroborate this posting and the author has disappeared, refusing to answer any emails or explain his " scientific findings ".
My worry is that: forum after form website after website is full of people refering to this posting and stating they are going to add deca or equipoise to their stack to protect their joints.
Unfortunalty painful joints only disappear while on deca and return very swiftly when the course is ceased showing that deca only has a masking effect

The closest i came to any evidence between test and collagen is this: http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v1.../5600357a.html
which states test has no effect on collagen, and this: http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=3235477
which also states that test does not affect collagen synthesis.

When on a cycle the body produces more estrogen and cortisol. My question is this if test does not affect collagen, is it the higher levels of cortisol which the body produces. Most studies show that estrogen actually increases collagen production.

Thanks in advance for your help. John.

[elpropiotorvic]

I found this .. Will try to find more it interests me as well http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...m&ordinalpos=1

[elpropiotorvic]

I don't think it provides much

[goodguy]

Hi. Thanks for the update.

It's all a very confusing issue. Many people state their joints killed when on an equipoise cycle, if it boosts collagen then why? One guy posted that he had joint problems, went on a deca and sustanon cycle, joints never bothered him again, but a lot of bodybuilders maintain that the pain only goes away as long as the deca cycle lasts??

Some believe any and all steroids will weaken collagen, look at the number of pro bodybuilders with torn muscles and tendons. Yet those who go onto hormone replacement therapy from the doctor report increases in collagen and joint health. I guess they don't take anything like the levels of test pros take which might be a factor. My theory was if test and estrogen are good for collagen, could it be the higher level of cortisol that is the culprit?

Finally there's an intresting comment from a gym buddy of mine who states
that only growth hormone is the real and scientifically proven booster of collagen and joint health, and says if you have a bad joint, lets say elbows for example, you can rub the growth hormone directly onto the joint to give relief rather than injecting it and letting it go off anywhere in the entire body it feels like, not that he's tried it himself just something he's heard.

Is this possible, or will the growth hormone be destroyed by skin enzymes, much like test is affected by the 5 alpha reductase enzyme?

I find it all interesting and would love some feedback

Thanks in advance. John.

[lovbyts]

The part about rubbing the growth hormone on the skin instead of injecting it I'm 99.999% sure would be a 100% waste or time and money.

If you are going to invest into HGH just inject it like intended and put some bengay on the sore joint until it's better.

[goodguy]

Hi. Is there any way to make the growth hormone have a more localised effect rather than just going anywhere it feels like.