Lets See Who Knows Roids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MR BICEPS]

Ive read everything I can on steroids, but I am still confused on one point of maintaing gains when coming off roids. So heres goes my question. First of all I dont need clomid because I take 200mg of test as hormone replacement each week from my doctor.
Okay I am betwen a rock and a hard place when it comes to deciding which steroids are best for keeping gains and why? The only two I use are EQ and Teat ethenate.
At the present time money is tight so I can really only afford one at a time. EQ is rated 8.5 on keeping gains and test ethenate is only rated a 4. Why?????????? I dont understand!!!!!!!!!!
I'm educated and all but I cant seem to figure out as to why this is. I would prefer to just use the ethenate because it increases my sex drive and strength more than eq. But many swear eq gives leaner and better lasting gains.
Does anyone really know for sure what the truth on this topic really is? And which one of these steroids would you take and why? I want guality gains and good defintion. And most of all the ability to maintain a large percentage of my gains minus the reduction of water weight.
Thanks. You guys are great!

[BIG-G]

IF budgets the problem then just go with 500 to 1000 d-bol pills and take about 50-75 5mg pills a day. Or id choose the equipoise or wistrol. NO point in taking a second test product. The eq or winny will play off ur test therapy. (the begining was a joke) BIG-G

[djdjdjddjon]

test you usually keep less gains as compared to eq because with the test a lot of your gains are fluid and water retention/gains, and soft muscle, whereas with eq the muscle growth is of somewhat more quality rather than quantity if you will, the ability to keep either after a cycle i dunno why they rate like that other than what ive mentioend, id rate test enant at 7 and eq at 8, the reason you lose when you come off is because low androgen levels combined with high estrogen or even moderate estrogen and high/moderate cortisol levels are usually present, and being there are no androgens the cortisol and estrogen are left to reign fury, so you defense when discontinuing anything that affects the hpta should be to replace with a synthetic estrogen (nolva, clomid, etc...) to block the now free estrogen receptors so that the stronger binding estradiol and its dervitives/precursors/whatever cannot bind their and exhibit their magnitude of effect, and to combat the cortisol you should maintain a high level of protein, personally i say at least 1.5g/lb body weight, hope this helps a little sorry soo wordy

[sd11]

The reason eq is rated 8.5 and enanthate a 4 is beacause enanthate causes a high degree of water retention. There is a lot more to keeping gains and it doesn't rely on some rating system. You still make quality gains on aas that cause water retention, but if you don't like that puffy look or the post cycle water weight loss you can run something like adex or ldex throughout your cycle. If I was you I would save some money and wait until you can create a solid cycle, if you don't want to go that route I think you would be foolish to pick and eq only cycle over a test only cycle.

[djdjdjddjon]

agreed, adex in a cycle works wonders, but really doesn't determine how much you keep post cycle, you could take dbol in once cycle and eq in another and probably keep nearly the same ammount gained considering your diet, training, nutrition, and post cycle ancillaries were in check...just some food for thought

[EXCESS]

Your doctor prescribes 200mg of test per week??? Damn, thats quite the replacement!!!

[BASK8KACE]

DJ,

Serious question:

If someone were on 800mg per week of testosterone cyp or enan for 12 weeks then dropped back down to 200mg per week, then would the difference in the test levels require some kind of post cycle therapy (clomid) eventhough the person continues to run 200mg per week of testosterone due to a prescription for hormone replacement therapy (HRT) year round?

If the whole point of the clomid therapy is to jumpstart natural testosterone function, then would a person who never stops taking at least 200mg every week of testosterone ever need clomid post-cycle?

If the answer is "no clomid is necessary for those on HRT", then wouldn't this be excellent news for people who have a doctor's presicription for hormone replacement of 200mg per week of test year round? They would never have to worry about losing gains after a cycle!

What are your thoughts on this, DJ?

Originally posted by EXCESS
Your doctor prescribes 200mg of test per week??? Damn, thats quite the replacement!!!

Excess,

Doctors can prescribe 200mg every two weeks (bi-weekly) up to 200mg every week (weekly) for HRT (hormone replacement therapy). Many doctors choose to give thier patients weekly shots of 200mg partially due to trying to keep the patient's hormone levels more constant.

In the normally functioning male, the body goes through a circadian rhythm of producing approximately 10mg of testosterone every day. That 10mg (in simple terms) is at its maximum strength in the morning and graually falls to it's low point in the evening. It is replenished during sleep, and the cycle (circadian rhythm) starts again. (I'm putting it very simply).

Using long acting esters of testosterone (cypionate or enanthate) for HRT, does not mimic the natural circadian rhythm. Instead there is a much longer cycle: By taking a shot of testosterone every two weeks the maximum concentration of the testosterone will be be in the body approximately 6 days after the shot and will gradually fall to it's low point by the end of the 14th day. As I said, doctors try to keep the hormone levels more constant by giving thier patients testosterone shots every week. That way, the body will not go through the exaggerated increase and decrease of testsosterone during bi-weekly shots (bi-weekly = every other week)

It's a fact that shots of 200mg per week of testosterone is more than twice what a normal body will manufacture. So those who get 200 every other week (or 100 every week) are getting the "normal" amount.

[JohnnyB]

Originally posted by EXCESS
Your doctor prescribes 200mg of test per week??? Damn, thats quite the replacement!!!

I only get 100mg a week

JohnnyB

[BASK8KACE]

I was just reading through barbells79's post (long and informative thread) on long cycles. I think they are debating some of what I asked over there, but I'm still interested in getting DJ's opinion on what I asked above.

Other people might want to read BB79's post (get some food and beverages near your computer, because you'll probably be sitting and reading for quite a while):

http://anabolicreview.com/vbulletin/...threadid=26298

[MR BICEPS]

So EQ does not promote more of a lean fat free muscle gain in the end? You think your losing more size because of water retension on the test, right?
If EQ does nothing by itself like some claim then test would be the way to go it would seem. However I dont understand why EQ by itself wont work. It should because its moderately to highly anabolic???????????
Why want EQ by itself work????????? Also I am now concerned if I need clomid post cycle seeing I stay on test replacement year round?
Thanks for the responses guys! I never take d-bol or winstrol due to bloodpressure trouble with d-bol and joint trouble with winny.
Would love to hear more responses concerning this issue. THANKS

[JohnnyB]

Man that threads been going for awhile now, it a good one though

JohnnyB

[BASK8KACE]

When you hear people say Equipoise (EQ) won't work by itself, you need to take that with a grain of salt. Many people taking steroids are looking to grow very quickly, so anything that is slower than what they want is considered "not working."

EQ does work by itself. Several people have run EQ-only cycles with success. In 10-12 weeks of EQ-only taken at around 200-400mg per week, you can expect to see about 6-7 lbs of hard, long-lasting muscle (up to 10lbs if you're naturally a fast grower). Since EQ takes such a long time to start doing its magic in your body (it kicks in around 5 weeks), some people prefer to run EQ for cycles longer than the traditional 10-12 weeks.

You'll often hear people talk about running EQ with testosterone for a couple of reasons:
1. Synergy: The combined effects of using EQ and test gives you fast muscle (testosterone) and longer lasting, hard muscle with less water retention (Equipoise).
2. Test is a good base: Since your natrual testosterone production will be shut down while running EQ and other AS, testosterone is generally a good idea to run as a base to any cycle--even if it's just enough testosterone to just keep your test levels up so you can do what you need to when you want to in bed.

Best of luck with your cycle!

[lwb357]

everthing i read from you always seems very well thought out and thought provoking.

[BASK8KACE]

Originally posted by lwb357
bas8kace everthing i read from you always seems very well thought out and thought provoking.

Thanks, bro.

[Rickson]

No clomid isn't necessary if one is not going to ever plan to recover natural test such as in HRT patients. You should also have no problem becoming catabolic. Any "gains" lost should come from water weight as long as diet, workout routine, and rest stay solid.

[MR BICEPS]

BASK8KASE what you had to say makes sense. I would have to agree 100 percent with what you just said! I felt that way all along but needed some reinforcement. Thanks

[TTTT]

"the cortisol and estrogen are left to reign fury" as quoted by djdjdjddjon. I believe that is about the best statement I have ever heard! Very well put....

[MR BICEPS]

Hey DJDJDJDDJON I wonder what could help with the lowering estrogen and cortisol levels post cycle. Ever read or heard about anything? Thanks

[lwb357]

Originally posted by MR BICEPS
Hey DJDJDJDDJON I wonder what could help with the lowering estrogen and cortisol levels post cycle. Ever read or heard about anything? Thanks

read everything you can about clomid and proviron, but what rickson said about HRT above should apply. you won't have those problems if you continue the HRT. i know you didn't ask me, so when DJDJDJDDJON answers you will have something to compare to, but i do have some experience with HRT.

[djdjdjddjon]

well i had a big response typed up to this, but my boss came by and closed it, so lets try again:

as far as blocking cortisol, i remember reading something in anabolic review 96' about a drug that either blocks cortisol by binding to it or actually binding to the receptor it uses and making it ineffective, cant really recall its name though (anyone?, something exotic that you dont hear too often)...

and bask8, always a pleasure chatting with you, as far as this question, its difficult because i dont know a whole lot about hrt, but lets look at the facts:

for our exmaple were using 200mg/week of test cypionate, definately enough test to affect the hpta and result in negative feedback to the loop, so it might not shut down natural test completely, but it definately has a notable effect, now as far as clomid:

the answer is no, people on hrt DO NOT need clomid, i mean lets think about this, the point of clomid is a synthetic 'weaker' estrogen, that has a high binding affinity to estrogen receptors but DOES NOT exhibit estrogenic side affects, THUS resulting in a positive feedback to the hpta and stimulating the production of testosterone, well if your taking something to POSITIVELY affect the hpta (clomid), but at the same time your taking something that sends NEGATIVE feedback (test cyp 200mg/week), then you are basically negating the whole purpose of the clomid, its simple, negative plus a positive = 0 benefit, unless you consider full balls and a thick load a benefit (i do)...nevertheless, people on hrt do not need clomid, its just uneccessary (jmho)...hope this helps a bit, anymore questions/discussion please, this is great...take care guys!

[BASK8KACE]

DJ,

Thanks for the reply. I was talking in terms of someone on 800mg per week who drops back to 200mg per week as a bridge to the next cycle. For example a person on HRT will always take 200mg of test per week so between major cycles, you're agreeing that clomid would still not be necessary because of the base of 200mg of test?

Here's another example of what I'm talking about:

(Cycle 1) Test/EQ at 400mg each taken every week, weeks 1-12
(Bridge) Testosterone Cyp or Enan at 200mg ew, weeks 13-25
(Cycle 2) Testosterone only at 800mg ew, weeks 26 -38
(Bridge) Testosterone Cyp or Enan at 200mg ew, weeks 39-51
Etcetera....

[djdjdjddjon]

yes not necessary, your never giving the hpta a rest, therefore anything to help recover it is uneccesary, regardless of dose 800 or 200 it is still not getting a rest, the only thing i would be worried about is sides, a drop from 800 to 200 is a quick drop, and could cause some peaks/troughs in the test levels, which will definatley yield some sides especially in sensitive individuals...so back to the point, the sole purpose of clomid (in most cases excluding it as an anti-e) is to recover the hpta, your hpta will not recover while taking even 200mg/week exogenous testosterone, so once again, if your not using it for anti e purposes, its hpta recovery purpose is basically deleted...

[BASK8KACE]

DJ,

Thank you for clearing that up. I always enjoy getting good, dependable information from knowledgeable people like you.

Best to you.

[MR BICEPS]

Since the body is used to having 200mg of test per week would this mean a person on HRT would need to use more test during their cycle to benefit? I wonder if the body becomes immune to the stuff?

[BASK8KACE]

There have been debates on whether the body develops a tolerance to AS. The jury is still out on that. My vote is no it does not develop a tolerance. But as the body gets bigger, gains are less noticable and harder to come by--so some people might take visual cues as "evidence" of a increased tolerance. From my perspective, a 10lb gain on a 165lb person is much more noticable than 10lbs on a 200lb person; however, that does not mean the testosterone is any less effective or that a tolerance has been built up in the heavier person. NOTE: this is my opinion, not a fact.

Anyway, if your body built up a tolerance to testosterone, then I think that:
(1) studies for HRT would have revealed it; and
(2) doctors would be advised to raise doses after a certain amount of years of HRT.

Since neither #1 nor #2 has occurred, I doubt that you have to worry about it. 200mg of testosterone per week is already enough to grow on, so if you add anything more to it, your body will respond.

[BASK8KACE]

One more thing...
If it were a matter of tolerence and not natural limits that limit a person's growth, then I believe that:
(1) all we would need to do is continue to take higher doses for continuous growth at the same rates as the previously effective lower doses.
(2) If #1 were true, then we'd already see men competing at 500lbs. in bodybuilding contests.

In other words, I don't think tolerance is as big a factor as some people believe when it comes to AS.

[mmaximus25]

MR BICEPS:
Don’t mean to pop in at the end, I like the reads from bask8kace and Dj... It was stated above and I just want to reiterate the androgens are about 10%, training about 10% but nutrition is at 80% when is comes to keeping your gains. Test is a higher anabolic than EQ.... just when people state androgenic vs. anabolic.. Test has a higher androgenic effect over the anabolic effort. EQ is called an anabolic only because its anabolic effort is higher than the androgenic effect.
You should be able to grow on anything graphed to your body composition, (ex. tests done of deca state 2g per lb of body weight is the minimum dosage. there is a dose like that for every androgen but it will be specific to you)
So there's nothing wrong with EQ alone if taken properly, It is the individual goals that dictate the usage... If it’s the bed room issue and you’re on eq alone, When I'm on deca alone and need an outstanding performance in the sack I'll shoot 25 or 40mg of d-bol reforvit in my quads and go to town... (not the pill never done that before nookie)
but then again I usually take deca with d-bol more times than none

[iron4life79]

this has been a pretty informative thread on its own.

nice work guys............some interesting and debatable info here too.


peace bb79

[mmaximus25]

my 2 cents
If you want to make gains / keep your gains, you must raise your anabolic rate by providing the proper nutrition for protein synthesis... With out a proper nutrition base you will not keep any gains, I haven't lost anything but fat and water for 2-1/2 yrs. you should worry more about your diet than your gear... Gears easy, getting the right grams of good food is where most every one makes the mistake. But blame it on the gear right....Nah EQ 10-16wks with the right food your gonna win, Test 10-16wk with the right food your gonna win, you can win on everything just how fast do you want to win. how discipline how much patience and knowledge.. I personally wouldn't look at any graph of gains kept, reason being... that is general statement not specific to one person and not explained when is come to what type of gains made vs. kept. One last thing...
because of the water retention with test and your muscle fibers being so large and joints more comfortable can press heavier weight breaking more fibers for a higher anabolic effort (assuming the protein intake is sufficent)...
****I love propionate****
I'm done thanks...good read... Dj & B8K

[Tock]

"Serious question:
If someone were on 800mg per week of testosterone cyp or enan for 12 weeks then dropped back down to 200mg per week, then would the difference in the test levels require some kind of post cycle therapy (clomid) eventhough the person continues to run 200mg per week of testosterone due to a prescription for hormone replacement therapy (HRT) year round?"
===========================

Um, I'm on HRT (200 mg test/week) and my doc has me run the stuff 10 weeks, cycle off for 4 using HCG, then back on. Says my system needs the rest, that's all I know about it . . .
Am thinking of doing a bit more, though, in the near future . . .
--Tock

[BASK8KACE]

Tock,

Your doctor is one of the few that I have heard does that. I've spoken to a lot of HRT patients (who were open enough to discuss it). They are all on 200mg every week year round. I've also spoken to my doctor about it when I was trying to learn about testosterone and how it affects the body. He prescribes it year round too.

Is there anyone else out there on HRT who takes the doses in cycles like Tock? If so, how does your doctor prescribe the cycles and what reasons did s/he give?

[Rickson]

I wouldn't see the value in giving your body a "break" if you are not naturally producing enough testosterone. I have been on HRT for about two years now and do occassionally take HCG for cosmetic purposes. Next time you go to your doc ask him his thought process and share it with us since new views are always interesting.

[BASK8KACE]

Rickson, I just noticed you're a VET now, congrats!

I need to start posting my butt off cause you joined the board 2 months after I did. I'm forever spending time reading, but rarely posting. I might have to change that.

[lwb357]

Originally posted by BASK8KACE
Tock,

Your doctor is one of the few that I have heard does that. I've spoken to a lot of HRT patients (who were open enough to discuss it). They are all on 200mg every week year round. I've also spoken to my doctor about it when I was trying to learn about testosterone and how it affects the body. He prescribes it year round too.

actually, depending on where you live and how conservative your doctor is, some doctors refuse to go above 200 mg every two weeks. this regime only seems to make things worse because of a roller coaster effect of highs and lows between shots.

[BASK8KACE]

Originally posted by lwb357
actually, depending on where you live and how conservative your doctor is, some doctors refuse to go above 200 mg every two weeks. this regime only seems to make things worse because of a roller coaster effect of highs and lows between shots.

That's true. Furthermore, that rollercoaster effect can throw some people into fits of anxiety, depression, etcetera.

[JohnnyB]

Originally posted by lwb357
actually, depending on where you live and how conservative your doctor is, some doctors refuse to go above 200 mg every two weeks. this regime only seems to make things worse because of a roller coaster effect of highs and lows between shots.

That's what I'm on but I spilt it into 100mg a week.

I read on the insert in the test depot, it says "50-400mg should be administered every two to four weeks" So 200mg a week is the max for HRT.

JohnnyB

[djdjdjddjon]

Originally posted by BASK8KACE
Rickson, I just noticed you're a VET now, congrats!

I need to start posting my butt off cause you joined the board 2 months after I did. I'm forever spending time reading, but rarely posting. I might have to change that.

hahah, yah hes been vet for a while now, i was wondering too, i been posting and spending as much time as i can for a while and i joined before, i dont get no vet status, lol...j/k congrats rickson, always a great guy with dependable/accurate information...

[maxx]

Originally posted by BIG-G
IF budgets the problem then just go with 500 to 1000 d-bol pills and take about 50-75 5mg pills a day. Or id choose the equipoise or wistrol. NO point in taking a second test product. The eq or winny will play off ur test therapy. (the begining was a joke) BIG-G

oh yeah, order a liver too, if u are gonna do the dbol for a long time.

[BUYLONGTERM]

What a great thread!!! I have a buddy who strickly believes in low dose cycles and going 24 weeks. He has been doing this for close to 20 years and has never run into any problems. His health is perfect. I always tell him that makes me nervous. I am so far into week 12 of a low dose EQ test Cycle which I will run at least 16-18 weeks. I just ran out of EQ, so I'm going to add some winny for the next 4-6 weeks. So far no sides and I feel great.