Sperm count and babys???? Help?

**LBP311** · 11-20-2009, 01:08 PM

Would it be easier to get a woman preganunt during a cycle or during pct. Im 2 weeks in my pct 100mg clomid 40 mg nolvadex . I want to have a baby. Will taking more clomid help? Will hcg help? Or can it happen easy on pct.????

**chuckt12345** · 11-20-2009, 01:33 PM

happen easy? im not sure,, but clomid is used for male infertility.

**LBP311** · 11-20-2009, 01:41 PM

hmmmm i just wonder the is more of a chance while on pct then before you ever did the cycle

**chuckt12345** · 11-20-2009, 01:47 PM

id go with YES

**LBP311** · 11-20-2009, 02:10 PM

so before i ever used gear there was a good chance of me getting a woman pregnant, but now that ive done a cycle and am through and on my pct the chance of me getting her pregnant are greater than ever. right?

**chuckt12345** · 11-20-2009, 02:12 PM

not really man. theres no way to answer that. You need to go get checked by doc if you really wanna know if your sperm count is healty, you can even order the kits online

**sweezy** · 11-20-2009, 03:02 PM

my wife and were trying to have a baby so i stop using gear.we tried for a couple years with no luck..I went to a Doctor and he prescribed me Clomid to raise sperm count..I didn't finish the first prescription before she got pregnant.. overall took a month..Get some horny goat weed to that helps...good luck

**BJJ** · 11-20-2009, 04:16 PM

Semen Analysis.

**The Deuce** · 11-20-2009, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by sweezy

my wife and were trying to have a baby so i stop using gear.we tried for a couple years with no luck..I went to a Doctor and he prescribed me Clomid to raise sperm count..I didn't finish the first prescription before she got pregnant.. overall took a month..Get some horny goat weed to that helps...good luck

WHAT WAS YOUR DOSAGE?? J/c????

If this guy doesn't answer.. if he's telling the truth.. look I am on TRT ... and MY WIFE AND I ARE TRYING TO GET PREGO.. She is prescribed CLOMID.. and I believe due to my AAS use my sperm count MAY BE lower than the average bear... is this guy telling the truth.. does clomid RAISE the sperm count.. if it does.. I'll start POPPING 50mgs starting tomorrow in the midst of my 500mgs per week of TEST.. I don't really care.. IF IT RAISES MY SPERM COUNT IM IN.. We want a friggen baby... been trying for 18 months.. they deemed her to be the less fertile one.. hence why she is ON CLOMID.. but.. if my sperm count is DOWN and I can RAISE IT by simply taking some clomid.. which.. come on.. it's friggen clomid I have taken it at least 20 times for PCT'S in the past.. grant it.. I AM in the Middle of TRT right now.. but.. hell it CANT HURT TO TAKE CLOMID Mid-cycle...

Need info on this ASAP.. She just started her 100mgs of CLOMID Therapy for 5 days starting tonight.. she ovulates in 10-14 days... NEED DEFINITIVE ANSWER ON THIS... If this guys info is INACCURATE I'd like to know.. if there is TRUTH BEHIND.. it will NOT hurt me to give it a whirl to try this month and if she doesn't end up pregnant i'll hit the MALE INFERTILITY CLINIC Next month but it's TOO LATE for this month..

That's why I am HOPING Someone has more PROOF of this being accurate or not.. NEVER HEARD OF A MALE BEING PRESCRIBED CLOMID THERAPY FOR LOW SPERM COUNT...

While I wait for an answer from my AWESOME BRO'S... Time to GOOGLE !!

**hankdiesel** · 11-20-2009, 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by The Deuce

WHAT WAS YOUR DOSAGE?? J/c????

If this guy doesn't answer.. if he's telling the truth.. look I am on TRT ... and MY WIFE AND I ARE TRYING TO GET PREGO.. She is prescribed CLOMID.. and I believe due to my AAS use my sperm count MAY BE lower than the average bear... is this guy telling the truth.. does clomid RAISE the sperm count.. if it does.. I'll start POPPING 50mgs starting tomorrow in the midst of my 500mgs per week of TEST.. I don't really care.. IF IT RAISES MY SPERM COUNT IM IN.. We want a friggen baby... been trying for 18 months.. they deemed her to be the less fertile one.. hence why she is ON CLOMID.. but.. if my sperm count is DOWN and I can RAISE IT by simply taking some clomid.. which.. come on.. it's friggen clomid I have taken it at least 20 times for PCT'S in the past.. grant it.. I AM in the Middle of TRT right now.. but.. hell it CANT HURT TO TAKE CLOMID Mid-cycle...

Need info on this ASAP.. She just started her 100mgs of CLOMID Therapy for 5 days starting tonight.. she ovulates in 10-14 days... NEED DEFINITIVE ANSWER ON THIS... If this guys info is INACCURATE I'd like to know.. if there is TRUTH BEHIND.. it will NOT hurt me to give it a whirl to try this month and if she doesn't end up pregnant i'll hit the MALE INFERTILITY CLINIC Next month but it's TOO LATE for this month..

That's why I am HOPING Someone has more PROOF of this being accurate or not.. NEVER HEARD OF A MALE BEING PRESCRIBED CLOMID THERAPY FOR LOW SPERM COUNT...

While I wait for an answer from my AWESOME BRO'S... Time to GOOGLE !!

In another thread you said you can take a gram and a half of test with no sides so I assume the 500mg is a cruising dose. Is that right? On another note I got my wife pregnant while on cycle. I'll be starting hrt (doctor prescribed) within the next year and we want to have one more. If we do have problems, I hope this guy is right about the clomid. I've heard hcg helps too.

**The Deuce** · 11-20-2009, 11:33 PM

Yah 500 is my cruise.. I just researched the HELL out of Google on this.. and apparently it is PRESCRIBED for men to increase sperm count and ejaculate volume.. clomid therapy is 25 days at 25mgs-50mgs ED taken in the morning...

But said NOTHING about being on TEST or any other Anabolic .. so I wonder if that matters...

still researching...

someone with some AAS Knowledge and this answer should pop up eventually... I hope...

**sweezy** · 11-21-2009, 06:16 AM

Why would i not be telling the truth ? Anyways..I was cruising for over 2 years without a PCT so I thought I had no chance of making a baby. I got off the Gear and we tried for 2 years with no success...So I went to my Doc and he put me on 50mg / Day of Clomid..I was using 100mg / day though..I was also using Horny Goat weed..some people say its a magic baby making substance..I didn't get to the End of my 1st refill and BAMMMMM...My son was on his way..This is what i did..I took 1 clomid and 2 goat weed pills in the morning and the same before bed..You should be G2G in no time...Keep us posted on your results..

**got fina?** · 11-21-2009, 12:58 PM

Well this mite help you out.

The only two times i ever got a girl pregnant (accidental) was while i was on Clomid.

**SniperDoc** · 11-21-2009, 01:31 PM

Oligospermia (unlabled )
Adult (men) 25 mg per day X 25 days take 5 days off than re-cycle

This is what happened to me.....I was on 750 mg of Sust, 100 mg D-bol, 500 EQ a week. I was on week 6 when my wife (GF at the time) got pregnant. I didn't think i had any swimmers left in me at that point. But I did. I was so sure that i accused her of cheating on me....it was bad. But turns out i have a beautiful little girl, and son. One is 6 and the other 8.

Respectfully
-SniperDoc

**SniperDoc** · 11-21-2009, 01:33 PM

Clomid is prescribed to males....it is called an unlabled prescription. That means the drug was not intended for the specific purpose, but has shown to work in most case studies.

Hope this helps
Repsectfully
-SniperDoc

NS · 11-21-2009, 02:48 PM

errr Deuce do you take HCG at the moment?

**Kratos** · 11-21-2009, 04:01 PM

just raw dog it until it happens
often people don't regain their full sperm count until 6 months post steroids
I'm sure clomid would reduce that figure
but if you're gonna knock her up have some fun with it...who cares if it takes 1 week or one year...once that thing starts crying you're gonna get none.

**The Deuce** · 11-21-2009, 04:23 PM

LOL... Alright.. since she is on the CLOMID THERAPY she just said to me.. WHY SHOULD I BE THE ONLY ONE TAKING IT.. YOU PUMP EVERYTHING ELSE INTO YOUR BODY WHAT THE HELL IS ONE EXTRA TAB A DAY !?!?

So, I guess, LOL... I should start because I CAN'T COME OFF OF THE TEST.... TRT for LIFE. If I do not stay on, guess what DOESN'T Work.. yah.. Test keeps my ED under control. So, HAS ANYONE EVER RAN Clomid.. while still ON TEST?? I have never heard of this myself.. NOLVA yah.. for GYNO symptoms.. but I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF SOMEONE SLAMMING DOWN CLOMID while on 500mgs of TEST per week.. I have 4 weeks until My Blast Bulking cycle.. where I will be upping my test to over 1200mgs and adding the NPP and DBol and Other things to the mix...

So if I have any Hope of Making the BABY it will best be while I am only on 500mgs of TEST EW and 50mgs of PROVIRON ED.. because it doesn't go any lower than that.

As far as the HCG I just Finished up my Hcg Treatment that I go through every 3 months.. I use 5000iu's at 1000iu's a week for 5 weeks.. every 12 weeks.. so I won't repeat this process again for another 10 weeks.. I learned this is the BEST WAY to keep my Testes rockin'... at about the 12 week mark of being on TEST is when My Nuts seem to shrivel right up.. so I put he HCG to me and BANG back to normal for approx. the next 12 weeks.. whether they are operational while not on the HCG is another story altogether.. They just stay "THEIR NORMAL SIZE" during that 12 week span.. weird I am talking bout my Nuts I know..

But Horny Goat Weed.. hmm I thought that was a placebo pill?? Never knew it actually served a real life purpose.

Anyways.. what are the possible sides of taking say 50mgs of Clomid ED while I am on TEST and Proviron and HGH?? Anything at all?? Perfectly safe??

Clomid just isn't something I normally take... I used to use it for PCT. Yah I know it's a SERM. Like NOLVA... But I know NOLVA is the better.. 40mgs is EQUAL to or BETTER Than 150mgs of Clomid I thought.. and that is WHY Nolvadex was considered the better compound out of the two..

Gotta be honest, don't really know much about these compounds because, well, I dont NEED TO... I will NEVER have to come off of Test so PCT is just something that I did.. and followed a regimen laid out for me.. I.E.- 4 weeks of Nolva/Clomid/Aromasin = 40/100/25 ... and that's HOW I always RAN MY Pct's when I needed too...

Ok Back on Track.. It is VERY Important to us that we get PREGNANT Soon.. this is her 3rd Month on Clomid Treatment.. and they (DOC'S) only safely recommend a maximum duration of a 6 month trial... so we HAVE 3 months until she has to discontinue Clomid for 2 years before she can TRY it again. So yah we are on a selected time frame. And if I can BOOST the chances of Conception by adding CLOMID to my daily routine.. then BY THE GRACE OF GOD I am going to do it...

As much as I LOVE practicing, the limited time frame is coming to a close end....

So any and ALL Info about this would be Greatly appreciated bros !!!

-The Deuce

**Kratos** · 11-21-2009, 04:31 PM

Deuce, wtf
you're on 500mg of test ew as well as proviron as hrt?
I'm sry that doesn't make sense. Must be self prescribed, but you shouldn't be doing that man if that's the case.
Clomid isn't going to do jack if you're on hrt.
You need to be on HCG continuiously, like 250iu every 2 days until she gets prego
you need to see a fertility doc dude and see an endo while your at it and get your hrt at the correct dosage. You don't want to have a boom boom boom heart attack before you're 50.

**The Deuce** · 11-21-2009, 04:41 PM

Kratos I love ya.. but.. I need to tell you.. PLEASE DON'T TAKE OFFENSE TO THIS.. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE.. BUT... HONESTLY...

First off,NO ONE has written the book on how much to use steroids ...Steroids is an experience....There isnt nothing more about it...We are all men here and whatever u do you accept FULL RESPONSIBILITY for your actions....We dont need GOD pointing fingers about whats too much and how much you should use...How would you know whats to much? Did you read it in some mickey mouse steroid book? Or do you just gauge it yourself and make it up as u go?...It so bogus to flame those that u feel use to much when your playing dart games too...And facts are no matter how much you use or little u do in the eyes of the outsiders we all are the chemical demons ...A villain at that using a controlled substance act that categorized Anabolic Steroid into the same class as drugs like heroin and cocaine....Its sad but ture....Try telling the outsider that U only use a little bit.....lol..yeah right...

So PLEASE DO NOT JUDGE ME AND DONT THINK I AM BEING A DICKHEAD... I HATE WHEN PEOPLE SAY THERE IS A CERTAIN AMOUNT YOU NEED TO DO !!

Point is.. I DO NOT RESPOND To Anything LESS THAN 500mgs.. don't ask WHY.. I don't know... No clue.. But it's really just an experience bro.. nothing else..

NOTHING HAS EVER BEEN PROVEN ABOUT STEROIDS EVER CAUSING OR LEADING TO A HEART ATTACK.. EVER.. STEROID TOXICITY IS OVERRATED...

IT'S ALL MADE UP SHIT DUDE...

My Blood work shows all.. I am fine.. everything checks out perfect.. I will go into this more if you would like.. but PLEASE BRO I am asking you not to get defensive about the way I worded it.. I will explain more when I get home from the gym.

Basically... it all boils down to FAKE SHIT PEOPLE MAKE UP IN THEIR OWN HEADS ABOUT HOW MUCH IS TOO MUCH.. How do you personally KNOW what is too much??? You DON'T ... No ONE does.. it's ALL A GUESS...

**Kratos** · 11-21-2009, 04:51 PM

deuce, I wasn't flaming you
what you're doing is hardly standard of care medical practice, and if a doc prescribed it would be found negligent...I think it's way too much. And if you aren't going to take my advise on the dosage fine, but don't get all pissy about it.

I was trying to set you str8 on the sperm though
and you need to be on a very low continuous dose of hcg to keep your count up
250IU's eod would be a good spot
seeing a doc to get a count and propper fertility protocol is what I would do in your case but be prepared for him to not share your philosophy on roids.

**Kratos** · 11-21-2009, 05:10 PM

Doping and effects of anabolic androgenic steroids on the heart: histological, ultrastructural, and echocardiographic assessment in strength athletes.
Hassan NA, Salem MF, Sayed MA.

Department of Forensic Medicine, Faculty of Medicine, Tanta University, Egypt. [email protected]

Anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) are used by some athletes to enhance performance despite the health risk they may pose in some persons. This work was carried out to evaluate the possible structural and functional alterations in the heart using two-dimensional, M-mode, tissue Doppler imaging (TDI) and strain rate imaging (SRI) in athletes using supraphysiological doses of AAS. Additionally, the histological and ultrastructural changes in cardiac muscles of adult albino rats after injection of sustanon , as an example of AAS, were studied. Fifteen male bodybuilders using anabolic steroids constituted group 1, five male bodybuilders who are not using anabolic steroids constituted group 2, and five nonathletic males constituted negative control group (group 3). They were investigated by two-dimensional, M-mode, TDI and SRI. This study was performed on 30 adult albino rats. They were divided into two groups. Group I (Control group) (10) was subdivided into negative control, subgroup 1a (5), and subgroup 1b (5), which received 0.8 ml olive oil intramuscular once a week for 8 weeks. Group II (Experimental group) (20) received sustanon 10 mg/kg intramuscularly once a week for 8 weeks. The heart specimens were prepared for light microscopy and transmission electron microscopy. Echocardiographic results showed that bodybuilders who use steroids have smaller left ventricular dimension with thicker walls, impaired diastolic function, as well as higher peak systolic strain rate in steroid -using bodybuilders as compared to the other two groups. Light microscopy examination of cardiac muscle fibers showed focal areas of degeneration with loss of striations and vacuolation in the experimental group. Ultrastructural examination showed disturbance of the banding pattern of the cardiac muscle fiber with disintegration, loss of striations, dehiscent intercalated disc, and interrupted Z-bands. Administration of supraphysiological doses of AAS caused severe deleterious effects in the myocardium both in athletes and in experimental animals. The SRI shows promise in the early detection of systolic dysfunction in those athletes who use steroids.

I'll translate for you
myocardium is the middle muscular layer aka the heart muscle
So, not only do high doses of steroids boost your blood pressure, give you thicker ventricular walls...but there are very large changes in the acutal cellular structure and integrity of the muscle fibers.

If you say there is no evidence the type of doses you are using for hrt will not be harmful, I hate to be the one to inform you, that you're wrong. There is piles of evidence, for not only physical problems but mental problems as well.

**Kratos** · 11-21-2009, 05:12 PM

And I'm just warning you, not flaming, not telling you what to do.
Just pointing out that you are introducing risk factors for problems...it's up to you if that's accepable or not.

**sweezy** · 11-21-2009, 06:15 PM

I don't understand what your saying Kratos..Are you telling everybody that AAS is bad ?

**Kratos** · 11-21-2009, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by sweezy

I don't understand what your saying Kratos..Are you telling everybody that AAS is bad ?

Well, they aren't vitamins, there is use for people who need it...and that's good

Then there is abuse...which all of us are guilty of who run cycles. And it isn't good for you, but we do it anyway. We accept a minimal amount of risk that we find acceptable for our vanity. Kinda like someone who goes under the knife for cosmetic surgery...it isn't good for them, but they look better and they probably won't have any problems.

Then there is negligent abuse with disregard for your health. I find duece's hrt regiment to fall in this catagory. But, I was just expressing concern, and if he's not worried then neither am I. Maybe he'll take the warning and slow his roll on the dosage.

**The Deuce** · 11-21-2009, 07:26 PM

See you know I respect you.. and I take everything you say brother to heart.. ok bad choice of word for topic... but... I am prescribed 400mgs EW...

Why, because at 250mgs EW my Total Test level was at 432ng/ml I think that is how it is worded, so he jumped me temporarily to 400mgs EW (Cyp 2ml's 200mg/ml per week) which at that dose gave me a total test of 874ng/ml... HIGH SIDE NORMAL according to him.. and so it sits..

Yes I took it upon myself to go ahead and jump me to 500mgs EW.. that when he did my blood work at that gave me a total test of 1101ng/ml.. and he was wondering why and I told him because I mistakenly did too much and was administering 500mgs per week instead of the prescribed 400...

So I do not think my DOCTOR is overprescribing me... I think he is doing what is medically correct and I am the idiot for jumping it that extra 100mgs per week.. In my head it's so I can make continuous gains whilst cruising .. so i don't have to implement an oral during cruising time.. like dbol at a mild 20mgs ED.

Do you think I am wrong?? Obviously ... but now that you know the results.. IS HE WRONG??

Should he have kept me at 250mg per week level??

I guess I was a little presumptious in my post.. I just kind of took offense when you said I was doing too much.. I didn't personally think that I was.. and yes I know there are STUDIES stating that bro, but there are also STUDIES disproving the study you posted, I'll spend some time hunting for it.. I know I have read it and it totally contradicts every statement in that one...

There are going to be arguments for both sides.. of course there are.. as there are with anything and everything... My basis falls upon what my personal physician says. And what I know through studying.. If my AAS use kills me, or gives me a heart attack and i survive, ok.. cool. I am a grown man and it's my life. I have been up to this point with my use, QUITE MILD. In fact I have only been taking 500mgs EW for the past 16 weeks. (Typical LONG cycle length) So it's not like I have been running 500mgs EW for 5 years wiithout a break or dip in intensity. It isn't like I am 30% BF and eat like a COW. Ok well I eat COW, just NOT an abundance of shit food.

Enough about that, let's save the rest for another thread/another topic...

Back to making babies...

YOU THINK I WILL SERVE A BETTER CHANCE JUMPING ON HCG at 250iu's DAILY or what was it.. EOD?? If that's the case.. I will have to wait until next month to start this process... I was thinking of implementing it anyways.. since I am going to start a total re-work of my AAS use... Once again.. another topic.. another thread...

**sweezy** · 11-21-2009, 08:57 PM

Kratos can you ellaborate on the Heart attack part ? I didn't quite understand it..

**The Deuce** · 11-21-2009, 09:34 PM

And KRATOS.. you are talking about structural heart changes in ONLY 8 WEEKS of AAS use.. Umm last time I checked.. everyone of us have done a cycle lasting LONGER IN DURATION that 8 weeks, and definitely I can probably bet my life on it, at an extremely higher dosing than that of the control group.

Yes we KNOW AAS will most LIKELY cause health problems later on in life.. this is a fact. BUT, THERE is also another side to it all.. where as you think my HRT is negligent abuse.. I have already stated that it has been 16 weeks of a 500mg per week Testosterone level..

Now, as far as my health is concerned.. I have premium health insurance. I am a hypochondriac.. anything that I think is WRONG with me, i automatically assume the worst.. I have had numerous EKG's done, stress tests on my heart, CT scans w/ and w/o contrast on my brain looking for tumors.. I have had an MRI done also. I have had chest x-rays to determine certain things and an ULTRASOUND of my heart.

EVERYTHING is NORMAL.. and this is after Multiple Years of Steroid use . My blood pressure.. while ON 500mgs per week is 121/72... Well into PERFECT... and once again.. after years of steroid USE.. or ABUSE.. however you want to rate it.

Do I think I will have heart attack at an early age.. yep.. probably... but I am an aspiring BODYBUILDER. I will do whatever it takes to get there.. if that means dumping 2 grams of Test per week, 10iu's of GH daily and multiple other compounds to get there.. then so be it brother... You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. You trying to say RONNIE COLEMAN used LESS than 500mgs of Test per week during his cruise phase.. probably not.. can't be 100 percent certain... but probably not. OF COURSE, I am nowhere near a PROFESSIONAL Bodybuilders Build yet.. but I will get there..

Point is.. My doctor.. who is actually quite knowledgeable with HRT, Yes he is an ENDOCRINOLOGIST .. knows where a Man of my age should be running a baseline total test range.. and for some odd reason.. 250mgs wasn't cutting it..

Maybe it was from my PAST Anabolic steroid use and i built up an immunity to it ... who knows but for whatever reason.. 400mgs Every single week put me where he wanted me to be.. so that is WHAT I am prescribed... point friggen blank bro.. but yet.. you call my HRT regimen negligent and said MY DOCTOR was NOT EDUCATED ENOUGH.. I wish, you could read this and respond... I am kind of curious as to what you response is going to be.. You know I honor your opinion. But Kratos, you aren't a doctor... Yes You know a lot about AAS. I am quite sure that you know more than I do. But can you explain to me how or why I would be responding.. or for this matter NOT RESPONDING to the amount of Exogenous Testosterone going into my body?? That's what I am curious about..

Obviously I don't want to die, and i understand your cause for concern, but i honestly believe my doc knows what he is doing and there is ONE THING that never lies.. and that is BLOODWORK. Plain and simple bro.

I could understand a worry if I said, YAH I am cruising at 2500mgs EW and blasting at 5000mgs ... JUST SO I CAN GET HUGE !!! But that isn't the case at all.. I am going above doctor order prescription by 100mgs which, yah.. isn't right.. i should in all aspects stick to my prescription ordered dose during my cruise phase... and when I do my BLAST Phase, always return to the 400mgs Every week.. and Maybe after this, I will.. I am due for my 250mg shot tonight and am holding off until tomorrow in hopes that you respond because i truly want to hear your opinion on this....

-The Deuce

**sweezy** · 11-21-2009, 10:19 PM

I have seen guys on other boards that have used steroids for 30 years and sometimes years without coming off..I mean some of these pros that we see today must have serious heart problems then..How do you guage what is too much ?

**The Deuce** · 11-21-2009, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by sweezy

I have seen guys on other boards that have used steroids for 30 years and sometimes years without coming off..I mean some of these pros that we see today must have serious heart problems then..How do you guage what is too much ?

BRO, THAT IS THE POINT OF MY RANT... THERE IS NO WAY TO EVER JUDGE WHAT IS TOO MUCH... LIKE I SAID IN MY PREVIOUS POSTS... I HAVE USED EXTREME AMOUNTS OF AAS LIKE A RETARD AND STUFF, BUT LIKE I ALSO SAID.. EVERYTHING HAS BEEN DONE.. I AM 100 PERCENT OF SOUND MIND AND BODY...

This is my point... I will probably lead a full and happy LIFE and.. and USE an EXORBITANT Amount of AAS in my Lifetime.. I personally believe that there is NO SUCH THING as TOO MUCH... but, I also think you NEED the experience Under the belt before you start slamming heavy doses of AAS.

I would never tell someone for their first cycle.. YAH GO AHEAD.. Slam 2500mgs per week.. it's all good.. NOTHING WILL HAPPEN !! You are all set.

But I also HATE when someone says.. "You NEED to 500mgs of Test E or C for 12 weeks for your 1st CYCLE.."

Ummm says WHO?? You.. almighty steroid God...

I see nothing wrong with a Test/Deca /Dbol cycle for a 1st timer...

I see nothing wrong with a TEST/EQ/VAR cycle for a first time run..

AND

I see nothing wrong with someone like me who has years of use under his belt being permanently ON.. and using Mega Doses at times. Steroids are an EXPERIMENT on YOUR body to bring it to whatever LEVEL you want to achieve.. You seriously think today's PROFESSIONAL BB-ers said.. Oh I better be careful and only do a 500mg per week cycle for 12 weeks, then PCT off, then wait time on + pct= time off... Then do it again

Uhhh NO I call Bullshit.

The problem with me posting this is some retarded newbie is going to see it and go OHHH SEE SOMEONE DOESN'T THINK AAS ARE HARMFUL.. Yah Ill go to do a gram per week of 3 different compounds and stack 4 orals at once for 6 weeks !!! Yah !!

No that isn't my point.. with EXPERIENCE comes NEW things you must do to break plateaus...

ANYONE WHO TELLS YOU SUCH AND SUCH AMOUNT IS TOO MUCH DOES NOT HAVE THE RIGHT NOR THE KNOWLEDGE TO BACK IT UP .. Because.. there is no solid concrete proof of what actually is .. TOO MUCH.

**sweezy** · 11-22-2009, 07:05 AM

I usually don't go too extreme with the doses but i must say i'm guilty of running gear longer than the norm..And now that my wifey is PG with my son , i am going to do my first cruise and blast. I think with a lot of the old timers still alive no one can really say this or that is bad for you...

**The Deuce** · 11-22-2009, 07:26 AM

Look at all those BB-ers from the 70's..and 80's... some yes have had heart attack, yes some of died, and some ARE STILL ALIVE...

Bt ready for the shocker!?!?!

People Who Never used AAS from the 50's,60's,70's and 80's guess what !!... some yes have had heart attack, yes some of died, and some ARE STILL ALIVE...

So how can ANYONE say that it was the AAS from the bodybuilders of Yesteryear that gave them Heart attacks or Death... NO ONE CAN!!

And back then, they didnt know what we know now.. that yah there are risks.. it wasn't uncommon to have some slamming a bottle,bottle and a half, two bottles per week...Come on... Dorian YATES is a perfect example.. Yet he's fine.. Arnold.. yah he had a heart attack but NOW is The Guvnuh of Californ-I-A !! Ok maybe it was a quadruple bypass.. but my point..

Steroids are safe to use ...They are not the vital organ destroyers that Most might have you believe.Because facts are Most people that use them never had a problem using them or long after......But yet people lack the scientific facts and the self experience facts but yet they still cry steroids kills....This shows me how i DO NOT want to be like them.

**Kratos** · 11-22-2009, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by The Deuce

Why, because at 250mgs EW my Total Test level was at 432ng/ml I think that is how it is worded, so he jumped me temporarily to 400mgs EW (Cyp 2ml's 200mg/ml per week) which at that dose gave me a total test of 874ng/ml... HIGH SIDE NORMAL according to him.. and so it sits..

Yes I took it upon myself to go ahead and jump me to 500mgs EW.. that when he did my blood work at that gave me a total test of 1101ng/ml.. and he was wondering why and I told him because I mistakenly did too much and was administering 500mgs per week instead of the prescribed 400...

So I do not think my DOCTOR is overprescribing me... I think he is doing what is medically correct and I am the idiot for jumping it that extra 100mgs per week.. In my head it's so I can make continuous gains whilst cruising .. so i don't have to implement an oral during cruising time.. like dbol at a mild 20mgs ED.

Do you think I am wrong?? Obviously ... but now that you know the results.. IS HE WRONG??

Should he have kept me at 250mg per week level??

Back to making babies...

...

I don't have enough information to make an assessment on weather he is right or wrong.

Usually with hrt the target range is somewhere between 300-700
depends on a lot of other facters, free test, estradiol, DHT, SHBG
but if you're younger, he may like you on the high side
you're under a doctors care, so you aren't being careless, and you're informing your doc of everything you are doing...some people self prescribe and I thought you fell into that catagory, sry I assumed. If I were you I would drop into the range he wants you in...high dose trt might not yeild more muscle mass in the long run and best to do as your doc says.

A couple quick things
I'm suprized he isn't concerned why it takes so much to regulate your test levels. Aka, where is it all going? For example, hopefully he's watching your liver enzymes, as increased metabolism of test can be a sign of liver stress. Testosterone itself can cause liver cysts and benign tumors (which almost always cease upon discontinuation) so it's a valid concern that you might just want to touch with him on next time you see him. 250mg should be enough for 2 weeks in most men. 500mg to bring you where you are is an awful lot, which is why I was concerned. But your doc is an endo, so I'm guessing he has an idea what's going on.

But back to your baby problem
you need gonadotropins online to produce sperm.
so some type of continuous hcg regiment will most likely be needed until she gets pregnant. And, since you're seeing an endo, you should maybe talk with him about an hcg/hmg protocol. Hmg mimics folicle stimulating hormone and can also help you get your count up. As far as clomid, it's useless to you as it will have a negligible effect on your LH levels, because you're on hrt.

**Kratos** · 11-22-2009, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by The Deuce

But I also HATE when someone says.. "You NEED to 500mgs of Test E or C for 12 weeks for your 1st CYCLE.."

Ummm says WHO?? You.. almighty steroid God...

I see nothing wrong with a Test/Deca /Dbol cycle for a 1st timer...

I see nothing wrong with a TEST/EQ/VAR cycle for a first time run..

.

I stay out of fist cycle threads because I agree with you there.
I don't think test alone is all that great of a cycle.

**Kratos** · 11-22-2009, 12:15 PM

as for the op, finish your pct with the nolva and clomid
you don't need anything else to bring your boys back online most likely except time

a few weeks post pct you may want to do another 1 week cycle of clomid, but don't stay on continuous

**got fina?** · 11-22-2009, 03:14 PM

I never understood why people ask for others opinion, and when told what they dont wanna here, they start an argument.

**The Deuce** · 11-22-2009, 10:20 PM

Yah, he was a little concerned as I am his only patient.. and at a mere 27 years old.. his youngest patient on hrt. I explained and was honest about my AAS Past and that I was nowhere near completion of using. He of course advised against .. as will 99 percent of doctors.. but when i arrived to him i had a total test of 82ng/ml.. yah something drastic HAD to be done...

I took your advice, and well am taking his advice also and returning to the prescribed amount of 400mgs ew for the time being. I don't know if he has plans on reducing or not. I do not have another consultation with him until April.. So I am bound to this prescription dose until then..

Now Kratos you got me all freaked out about liver cysts and shit.. haha.. thanks.. because last bloodwork shown elevated liver enzymes but they weren't within a range of anything concerning.

He, the Endo, is puzzled as to why my body would need that much testosterone to get me to a high end normal range.. he believes it could have a lot to do with the fact that I had been a heavy AAS user prior to seeing him. I even laid out for him, every cycle, every dosage and every post cycle therapy ... and yet .. he has dealt with many a people he says with a far more extensive list as compared to mine and 200-250mgs Weekly always normalized them..

Do you have any thoughts as to why I would need that much exogenous testosterone to claim normal levels??

Now, I know this isn't my thread, and kinda hijacked it.. and i extend my apologies to the OP..

But you think for as long as I WANT to try and have a child, while on hrt, I should either.. supplement HCG in on my own or better yet ask my doc if it is something he is willing to prescribe to me to allow my the possibility of conception??

Or, is it possible.. even at this stage, since she is on the fertility med, that just maybe.. ONE of my swimmers will make it to it's destination?? Or is that so highly unf easible due to what I have been putting into my body??

If it's HCG THAT will help me.. then HCG it is... I... WE... Want a son... or.. a healthy baby.. boy or girl.. so at this point.. i am going to do whatever it is in my power to make this happen.. but i can not abandon my HRT because well.. things don't work if i dont take my medicine...

Thanks for the help Kratos.. much appreciated...

**Kratos** · 11-23-2009, 11:30 AM

I'm not trying to scare you dude...but you can see the high level of hrt needed is confusing your doc a bit too. It's probably nothing. Maybe you just naturally metabolize things quickly. Honestly I assumed you put yourself on the HRT, most people on here are dumb asses and do unexplainable things. Didn't mean to play steroid God, but it is strange.

The only thing I would be worried about that might warrent a dialogue with your doc is weather you should have liver tests done for needing so much test. Liver cysts wouldn't be causing this but there are liver conditions that do, and some pretty dangerous ones. I've studied science, not medicine, I'm not an MD so I could be way off on this...but for example if it were me one thing I would want to eliminate would be HCC, b

Altered androgen metabolism eventually leads hepatocellular carcinoma to an impaired hormone responsiveness.
Granata OM, Carruba G, Montalto G, Miele M, Bellavia V, Modica G, Blomquist CH, Castagnetta LA.

Unit of Experimental Oncology & Palermo Branch of IST-Genoa, Department of Clinical Oncology, M. Ascoli Cancer Hospital Center, ARNAS., Civico, Palermo, Italy.

Sex steroid hormones are thought, among several other risk factors, to play a role in liver malignancies. For example, from epidemiological studies in hepatocellular carcinoma (HCC), a clear disadvantage for male sex is evident. In addition, elevated levels of serum testosterone (T) and increased T to Estradiol (E(2)) ratio have been reported to predict an increased risk of HCC for male cirrhotic patients. On the other hand, palliative treatment of liver cancer patients with anti-hormones has been widely used in the past. However, the molecular mechanism(s) underlying sex steroid action on either normal or transformed liver cells, have not yet been fully clarified, nor endocrine discriminants have been satisfactorily assessed for an adequate characterization of liver cancer tissues. In this paper, we report studies on hormonal status of human liver tissues and cells, especially focusing on androgens, to better define endocrine end-points of interest for HCC. A consistent evidence from ex vivo or in vitro systems strongly suggests that high affinity binding sites of androgens are expressed at sufficient concentrations to induce a biological response in either normal or phenotipically transformed hepatocytes; in the latter, however, high heterogeneity and/or more scattering concentrations were encountered. Further, experimental data seem to suggest that lack of response to androgens may be due to a rapid metabolic conversion of steroids by neoplastic tissues and cells. Cancer hepatocytes privilege in fact 5beta more than 5alpha metabolic pathway of androgens. This may eventually lead biologically active androgens to be transformed into less active derivatives, as it occurs for T which is massively converted (>90% at 6 h) thus hindering the whole mechanism of action of androgens. Copyright 2002 Elsevier Science Ireland Ltd.

At minimum I think you should think of having a hepatitis B blood test if there is any chance at all you have it...aka you weren't vaccinated and you're sexually active with someone who may have the virus. It's a large risk factor for HCC and is probably a pretty inexpensive test.

Your doc should be able to stear you in the right direction if it's prudent to do any testing better then I can. Don't freak out, or insist on tests if he thinks they are needless, just ask him what he thinks.

As for fertility, I can answer with reasonable certainty that HCG is what you need. Most likely your sperm count is low as a result of the HRT. No, if your count is low that doesn't always mean you can get one by the goalie. It's not just about 1 sperm reaching the egg, you need a lot of them to get there...spem have an enzyme to break down the egg membrane (aka crack the egg shell), if only one gets there, he won't be knocking loud enough on the door. Don't go wild with the HCG dose, you don't want to desensitize the lydig cells; you may need to be on contiuious HCG for awhile to get her preggers. The object is a sustained good sperm count, rather than 1 shot of turbo sperm. You may want to have test done for count and motility at some point.

**The Deuce** · 11-23-2009, 04:23 PM

I will definitely bring that up to him, but I was very much so vaccinated for HEP B.. and I have been tested for everything.. HEP C.. STD's and jesus.. everything. My Liver seems all set.. but I guess you can never tell until it's at the point of failure right??

Now IF I had Liver cysts would I feel it?? Notice anything at all? Liver Pain? Yellowing of the skin or eyeballs? Anything at all ?? Or is it one of those things seen only in an ultrasound for them to notice it and see it??

Ok. I did go ahead and take your advice and drop back to doctor prescribed dosing.. Instead of doing 250mgs Last night .. I did my 200mg. and in 3.5days I'll do another 200mgs. It'll take something like 4 weeks or so to normalize out to that dose as the 500mgs I had previously be using to clear and to just have the regular prescribed 400mgs going on.

Now, in association with all this. I do have a Bulking cycle planned that I need to institute and utilize because of the competition season approaching next year and I need to start packing on serious mass. I HAVE TO BE IN LIGHT-HEAVYWEIGHT. At least for next year.. maybe in the next couple of years I'll hit the HEAVIES but right now I have to be a Light-Heavyweight, and a BIG LIGHT-HEAVY ... although I guess I could hit Middleweight and be a MONSTER MIDDLEWEIGHT but that's not the plan. I like to stick to plans

As far as Pregnancy is concerned.. no matter what dose of Testosterone I am running HCG in theory will bring my SPERM COUNT and all things necessary for producing a child back on line.. whether it was 100mgs EW or 2000mgs EW .. in theory.. right??

I mean YES a baby is important to both of us.. very important. But also equally important is my future career as a bodybuilder. AS far as I knew..according to my bloodwork.. ALL SYSTEMS ARE FULLY OPERATIONAL AND WITHIN NORMAL RANGES. The only thing to note was the SLIGHT Elevation in Liver Enzyme which the ENDO attributed to of course the HRT ...

Now, I am trying to understand all of this, I should probably PM you but maybe this info will be helpful to someone else that is why I am continuing it in OP's Thread.

So, Trying to understand.. 1)HRT has possibly maybe my sperm count LOW. 2)I should consider the possibility of Liver Cysts and/or a condition called HCC. 3) Implement an HCG protocol 250iu's 2 times per week, pretty much indefinitely or until I have conceived my child 4) Ask the endo about resiliance and metabolizing of Testosterone in my body and if that's the case that is why at 27 I require MORE than any of his other patients have ever received

Do I pretty much got this covered?? Regardless still.. My wife also needs to take CLOMID therapy because of her infertile-ness... so we aren't totally out of the woods, and since she is technically going to be ovulating in the next 9-12 days.. we can pretty much count this cycle null and void because I do NOT have the Hcg to start the treatment protocol for myself...

We have 4 daughters, we just want a son. We were playing on trying and seeing how God hand us the next child if it went our way and we got our boy we would call it quits but if for some reason we got a Girl.. we would try ONE MORE TIME.. Which would give us 6 kids.. haha, yep that's a lot..

But My PASSION lies in Bodybuilding and in due to that I'M afraid AAS supplementation has become a necessity and an official part of my life...

**Kratos** · 11-24-2009, 10:45 AM

Yes, your sperm count is likely low from the hrt. Test feedback to the pituitary is telling your body no need for more test, so LH and FSH production is inhibited (your body's signal from the brain to produce test, sperm, and other hormones). HCG mimics LH and is usually enough to bring up natural test production and in most cases sperm too.

Basically I'm just saying ask your doc if you should think about doing more in depth liver tests due to how much test you're metabolizing. Something like "Yo doc, you think I should be worried about how much test I'm needing to inject. Should I possibly be concerned about my liver?"
Not trying to fear monger and say you have this or that, just that you and your doc should talk about it.
I'm not saying you have liver cysts, and often they do come with pain. They're a pain in the ass to diagnose though as are most liver conditions.
And I'm hoping HCC is not something you have to even think about, HCC basiclly means liver cell cancer. That's a pretty nasty form of cancer. Steroid use does increase the risk of this particular cancer and test can feed the cancer.

ABSTRACT
Serum samples of 9691 male adults had been collected and frozen for a
prospective study of hepatocellular carcinoma in Taiwan. After an average
follow-up period of 4.6 years, testosterone levels in the stored serum were
measured by radioimmunoassay using commercial kits for 35 cases of
newly developed hepatocellular carcinoma, 63 hepatitis B surface antigennegative
and 77 hepatitis B surface antigen-positive matched controls.
Elevated testosterone levels were found to be associated with an increased
risk of hepatocellular carcinoma. The association remained significant
after the adjustment for effects of other hepatocellular carcinoma risk
factors, including hepatitis B surface antigen carrier status, positivity of
serum antibody to hepatitis C virus, cigarette smoking, alcohol drinking,
past liver disease history, and dietary habits. The multivariate-adjusted
relative risk of hepatocellular carcinoma for men with testosterone levels
in the upper fertile was 4.1 (95% confidence interval = 1.3-13.2) com
pared with those having levels in the middle or lower tertiles (P = 0.016).
The results consistent with those observed in animal experiments support
the hypothesis that testosterone plays a role in the etiology of human
hepatocellular carcinoma.

There are several studies like this that say, weather you have hep B or not, you're more at risk for liver cancer with higher test levels. And some are more specific to say high test along with low estrogen levels. And it is likely not to show on a standard liver pannel.

I wouldn't say you are likely to have any liver problems though. Just encouraging good communication with your doctor.

As far as her ovulating, you should bang her anyway cause it's fun. Throw a shot in there and who knows. You may have enough sperm to get it done.

Hcg should work no matter how much test you are shooting or if you decide to go on cycle.

From what I've read about HCG there is no point ever to go over 500IU a day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH. 250IU's per day is a safer maximum, and giving it time to work.

There are a number of ways you could do it.
I'd go with more frequent lower injections for maximum results.
For example maybe 250IU eod.
And you could always have your swimmers tested to see what kind of ammo you're shooting.

I want to be clear that you shouldn't be overly worried about any liver problems, just that it would be a point of interest to talk to your doctor about, and if he thinks further testing would be prudent or a waste of medical resources.

Good luck with all your kids.

--"Don Corleone, I am honored and grateful that you have invited me to your home on the wedding day of your daughter. And may their first child be a masculine child."