Juicing for the Health of it

[Seansbeard]

Hi there,

I've been browsing through the forum here for the last couple days after watching a documentary called, Bigger, Faster, Stronger by Christopher Bell.

I thought the film was good and for someone like me who is totally new to steroid use (I have not used steroids ), it was nice to see a balanced argument for steroid use.

Since seeing the film, I have begun to seriously consider hormone therapy. Last year I had some blood work which revealed my total testosterone is in the low-normal range (315). I'm hoping that some of the senior members here can weigh in and share their thoughts on appropriate protocols for testosterone therapy for general health and wellness.

Right now, as a kind of warm up to steroids, I am starting a supplement cycle of ZMA and Tribulus terrestris extract. I am doing an 8 week cycle (4 weeks off) and plan to get tested toward the end of the cycle to see if I can get my numbers up. I may just stick with these supplements if they are effective, but I'm getting the picture though my reading here that supplements simply don't lead to noticeable or significant results.

I have no health issues and never have. All my blood work last year for the standard battery of blood testing (cholesterol, etc...) for a male my age fell within medically acceptable levels. I just want to have more energy and be more manly.

To be clear, my main goal is to have more energy and have more vigor and stamina. I would also welcome some of the possible side effects such as increased body hair and increase in general size and strength. I'm okay if these secondary effects don't occur, but I would welcome any of the moderate increases in male sex characteristics commonly associated with testosterone use and the resultant increase in DHT; aside from those negative effects such as prostate enlargement, of course.

I'm 36 years old. I'm not interested in gaining muscle (a little wouldn't be unwelcome, of course) and I don't lift weights. I do work out; running and hiking and would like to use testosterone to push to new levels with my recreational running. I am not interested in special diets; I eat a normal diet for a male my size and I don't count calories and I'm happy with that.

I have done some preliminary reading and will likely buy the e-book associated with this forum/website. I also will likely explore this journey with my doctor and see if I can get a referral to an endocrinologist; but, to be honest, I have a few concerns about going to a professional. For one it seems clear that injectable Testosterone Enanthate is the standard when it come to testosterone therapy for general health and I don't want to be prescribed patches or gels.

Going to a professional would also be cost prohibitive for me since it's unclear whether my insurance would cover the treatment and, even if it did, I have a fairly sizable deductible. Still I will give it a try before any attempt to self medicate.

If I do decide to go it alone, I certainly intend to do as much research as possible and go about it as safely as I can.

My questions to the community of experienced practitioners here are as follows.

1. What would be an optimal and safest level of testosterone for general health maintenance and greater vigor? I'm talking about testable blood levels here, not how much to take. 600-800?

2. How much Testosterone Enanthate would likely be needed to sustain the above said optimal level throughout a given cycle? And what is roughly standard here when we are talking about general health maintenance? I am about 195 pounds; 5 ft 10 inches tall, if that helps.

I was thinking I would split the most common dosage of 250 mg and go with 125 mg every two weeks during my cycle? It seems like this is about half of what a novice bodybuilder would start with, at about half the frequency. I would be happy to go lower if that meant I could still have a noticeable improvement in energy, stamina and general well being and have a lower risk; is this a situation where I need to try it and see? Safety is big for me here; I really want to minimize testicular atrophy and be able to bounce back to base line as quick as possible after a cycle.

3. For my PCT, I'm simply interested in avoiding the classic effects of estrogen associated with testosterone usage. Things like acne and hair loss from excessive DHT are much less of a concern for me. In fact, I wouldn't mind having a reasonable level of DHT after-effect since I feel it's a positive and a natural part of being a man; of course, I am concerned about the effects of DHT on my prostate, but I'm guessing (please correct me if I'm wrong) that, at 36, this is not a real concern unless I was considering a high dosage. So, knowing that, what is a good, reliable PCT product that will simply help me balance out after my cycle and avoid unwanted breast development?

I really like herbal and natural products, so that would be preferred if there is a reliable product out there that has worked consistently.

4. Lastly, what is an optimal duration for safe but effective use. I understand that a doctor who specializes in testosterone therapy would tailor a dosage and cycle regimen based on my individual test results, but I am looking for a typical range in case I decide to try things on my own.

Right now I am considering 8 weeks on and 4 weeks off, for one year. So, one 8 week cycle every three months over the course of a year. This seems like a safe duration, but, again, if I can do less and get results, I'm open to educated suggestions and advice. I simply asked a few people and they said 8 on and 4 off is a good safe bet, but that's all I have to go on right now so obviously I need more research and input from people with experience.

I know that these topics may have been covered, so if I missed a good discussion on this or it's been discussed already and I missed it, I apologize. Please feel free to direct me to those discussions or to other books and resources that would be helpful, I would greatly appreciate your help.

I did spend a good deal of time reading some of the FAQ sections and posts, but I haven't found a real thorough set of protocols for the use of testosterone enanthate for general well being/vigor, more energy and increased stamina for things like recreational running.

I of course admit and apologize up front for being a total beginner here. I have seen a lot of the membership here quickly become impatient with users who present bone headed propositions like, "Hi, I'm 18 and I want to start juicing to grow a beard." I don't want to irritate people who are here to learn about the professional body building and weight lifting aspect of steroid use, but I would propose that we are all here because we would like to change the way we look and feel, no? I hope that my goals can be respected and will attract helpful/useful responses even though they probably aren't the norm here.

I admit that it is out of vanity that I want to take testosterone. I'm not going to pretend otherwise. In addition to having more energy and vigor, I would like to look and feel more manly and I'm comfortable with being open and honest about that. I am full grown at age 36 and feel the time is right to delve into moderate steroid use for health and ego reasons. And I genuinely appreciate any responses and the time and effort if people with real experience can help me.

I would also consider paying for a consultation if there are members here who wish to contact me privately. I would pay a reasonable fee for a few phone consultations to get me started; someone with a nutrition/supplement background who has been doing this for a good amount of time and has a coaching business or at least a decent website. Or perhaps some of you know professionals in the field that, while they may not be doctors, have enough experience and background to act as a mentor for a reasonable cost (comparable to a personal trainer's fees at a gym for example).

Thanks in advance.

[Seansbeard]

I just purchased Brian Clapp's Anabolic Steroids: Ultimate Research Guide, Vol. 1. It looks like lots of good information. I hope there is a bit about HRT and some of the guidelines for people like me. Anyway, I'm glad I got and will work through it over the holiday.

If anyone has the time to respond to all or part of my post, it would mean a lot to me... Thanks

[Twist]

Hi there,

I've been browsing through the forum here for the last couple days after watching a documentary called, Bigger, Faster, Stronger by Christopher Bell.

I thought the film was good and for someone like me who is totally new to steroid use (I have not used steroids ), it was nice to see a balanced argument for steroid use.

Since seeing the film, I have begun to seriously consider hormone therapy. Last year I had some blood work which revealed my total testosterone is in the low-normal range (315). I'm hoping that some of the senior members here can weigh in and share their thoughts on appropriate protocols for testosterone therapy for general health and wellness.

Right now, as a kind of warm up to steroids, I am starting a supplement cycle of ZMA and Tribulus terrestris extract. I am doing an 8 week cycle (4 weeks off) and plan to get tested toward the end of the cycle to see if I can get my numbers up. I may just stick with these supplements if they are effective, but I'm getting the picture though my reading here that supplements simply don't lead to noticeable or significant results.

I have no health issues and never have. All my blood work last year for the standard battery of blood testing (cholesterol, etc...) for a male my age fell within medically acceptable levels. I just want to have more energy and be more manly.

To be clear, my main goal is to have more energy and have more vigor and stamina. I would also welcome some of the possible side effects such as increased body hair and increase in general size and strength. I'm okay if these secondary effects don't occur, but I would welcome any of the moderate increases in male sex characteristics commonly associated with testosterone use and the resultant increase in DHT; aside from those negative effects such as prostate enlargement, of course.

I'm 36 years old. I'm not interested in gaining muscle (a little wouldn't be unwelcome, of course) and I don't lift weights. I do work out; running and hiking and would like to use testosterone to push to new levels with my recreational running. I am not interested in special diets; I eat a normal diet for a male my size and I don't count calories and I'm happy with that.

I have done some preliminary reading and will likely buy the e-book associated with this forum/website. I also will likely explore this journey with my doctor and see if I can get a referral to an endocrinologist; but, to be honest, I have a few concerns about going to a professional. For one it seems clear that injectable Testosterone Enanthate is the standard when it come to testosterone therapy for general health and I don't want to be prescribed patches or gels.

Going to a professional would also be cost prohibitive for me since it's unclear whether my insurance would cover the treatment and, even if it did, I have a fairly sizable deductible. Still I will give it a try before any attempt to self medicate.

If I do decide to go it alone, I certainly intend to do as much research as possible and go about it as safely as I can.

My questions to the community of experienced practitioners here are as follows.

1. What would be an optimal and safest level of testosterone for general health maintenance and greater vigor? I'm talking about testable blood levels here, not how much to take. 600-800?

2. How much Testosterone Enanthate would likely be needed to sustain the above said optimal level throughout a given cycle? And what is roughly standard here when we are talking about general health maintenance? I am about 195 pounds; 5 ft 10 inches tall, if that helps.

I was thinking I would split the most common dosage of 250 mg and go with 125 mg every two weeks during my cycle? It seems like this is about half of what a novice bodybuilder would start with, at about half the frequency. I would be happy to go lower if that meant I could still have a noticeable improvement in energy, stamina and general well being and have a lower risk; is this a situation where I need to try it and see? Safety is big for me here; I really want to minimize testicular atrophy and be able to bounce back to base line as quick as possible after a cycle.

3. For my PCT, I'm simply interested in avoiding the classic effects of estrogen associated with testosterone usage. Things like acne and hair loss from excessive DHT are much less of a concern for me. In fact, I wouldn't mind having a reasonable level of DHT after-effect since I feel it's a positive and a natural part of being a man; of course, I am concerned about the effects of DHT on my prostate, but I'm guessing (please correct me if I'm wrong) that, at 36, this is not a real concern unless I was considering a high dosage. So, knowing that, what is a good, reliable PCT product that will simply help me balance out after my cycle and avoid unwanted breast development?

I really like herbal and natural products, so that would be preferred if there is a reliable product out there that has worked consistently.

4. Lastly, what is an optimal duration for safe but effective use. I understand that a doctor who specializes in testosterone therapy would tailor a dosage and cycle regimen based on my individual test results, but I am looking for a typical range in case I decide to try things on my own.

Right now I am considering 8 weeks on and 4 weeks off, for one year. So, one 8 week cycle every three months over the course of a year. This seems like a safe duration, but, again, if I can do less and get results, I'm open to educated suggestions and advice. I simply asked a few people and they said 8 on and 4 off is a good safe bet, but that's all I have to go on right now so obviously I need more research and input from people with experience.

I know that these topics may have been covered, so if I missed a good discussion on this or it's been discussed already and I missed it, I apologize. Please feel free to direct me to those discussions or to other books and resources that would be helpful, I would greatly appreciate your help.

I did spend a good deal of time reading some of the FAQ sections and posts, but I haven't found a real thorough set of protocols for the use of testosterone enanthate for general well being/vigor, more energy and increased stamina for things like recreational running.

I of course admit and apologize up front for being a total beginner here. I have seen a lot of the membership here quickly become impatient with users who present bone headed propositions like, "Hi, I'm 18 and I want to start juicing to grow a beard." I don't want to irritate people who are here to learn about the professional body building and weight lifting aspect of steroid use, but I would propose that we are all here because we would like to change the way we look and feel, no? I hope that my goals can be respected and will attract helpful/useful responses even though they probably aren't the norm here.

I admit that it is out of vanity that I want to take testosterone. I'm not going to pretend otherwise. In addition to having more energy and vigor, I would like to look and feel more manly and I'm comfortable with being open and honest about that. I am full grown at age 36 and feel the time is right to delve into moderate steroid use for health and ego reasons. And I genuinely appreciate any responses and the time and effort if people with real experience can help me.

I would also consider paying for a consultation if there are members here who wish to contact me privately. I would pay a reasonable fee for a few phone consultations to get me started; someone with a nutrition/supplement background who has been doing this for a good amount of time and has a coaching business or at least a decent website. Or perhaps some of you know professionals in the field that, while they may not be doctors, have enough experience and background to act as a mentor for a reasonable cost (comparable to a personal trainer's fees at a gym for example).

Thanks in advance.

1. as far as feeling goes, I (personally and many of my friends too) feel the effects when in the high700 to 800 range. I keep my levels at 800 and I feel great!

2. this all depends on the person. I have to take 100mgs of cypionate on monday and thursday to keep my levels at a stable 800. that is 200mgs per week.

3. you may want to run an ai like arimidex throughout your cycle. just have it on hand in case of tender nipples then take it eod for a week until cycle is over. once gyno or tenderness is gone you may be able to lower the dose substantially

4. Testosterone replacement therapy is for life bud. If you have low test levels to begin with there is a chance they will never come back to where they are now. for example my blood levels are as follows:
age 17 400 region (never saw bloodwork and didn't know what to look for but that's what the doc said I think)
age 18 300
age 20 252
age 21 50's
as you can see my levels dropped and now I am on trt for life. but between 18 and 21 I ran maybe 3 cycles and that is all I have done in my life. Except for one cycle I only injected 100mgs of long ester once per week. so seriously don't expect to bounce back. Not likely at your age anyway.

blood tests are done monthly for a while until your levels get stable they cost about $80 and if you have a script from an endo, but no insurance, that's about how much you will pay for your testosterone also.

don't pm people cuz you want opinions from different experienced people. Plus a website doesn't mean shit. Also you shouldn't be embarrassed about posting this in anyway nor should anyone flame you. This is what the drug is meant to do. Hope it all works out for you.

[elpropiotorvic]

I don't know much about hrt but I know that zma and tribulus don't increase t, tribulus helps with libido .. But not with t

[Vegas67]

Sansbeard. I been on HRT for 3 years now...before that I was bodybuilding with fairly high cycles of just about everything. Having never done test, you are going to experience an elevated heart beat if you go above say 350mg a week...based on my experience. I am 42 and 6' 200 with around 9% bodyfat...so not much differnt than you. I also am taking HGH at low doses 5 days aweek along with 200mg of test cyp. I feel great and will keep going for life.

[Seansbeard]

Thanks for the responses so far. I am a little discouraged to hear that HRT is for life. I need to really explore this before I make that jump. Is it typical that once you cycle, your natural levels do not return?

Twist, you said your base line dropped to the 50s. Do you feel it would have returned in time or do you think that the few cycles you did in your early twenties burned out your body's ability to produce testosterone ?

What can I do to ensure a bounce back? If anything?

I don't know much about hrt but I know that zma and tribulus don't increase t, tribulus helps with libido .. But not with t

I take you are not impressed with the ZMA research that showed moderate gains in college athletes who took ZMA? I have read that it's a testosterone potentiator; meaning it allows the body to produce more Luteinizing Hormone, leading to moderate increases in testosterone. Are you saying this is false or are you saying that these gains are too low to be considered meaningful?

Part of the popularity of ZMA, so I've read, is that it has a peer reviewed clinical trail showing its efficacy. I'm curious what people here think about ZMA.

Thanks again.

[zaggahamma]

welcome...

so do you have any symptoms of low T...

i was youre age when starting and NEVER had the same concern about hrt being for life...why would i want to stop?

your title says it all

[Twist]

Twist, you said your base line dropped to the 50s. Do you feel it would have returned in time or do you think that the few cycles you did in your early twenties burned out your body's ability to produce testosterone ?

What can I do to ensure a bounce back? If anything?

Bounce back...? you don't have a good baseline to bounce back to. Bouncing back is for people who have it. If you don't have it you don't have it, and it gets worse as you get older.

Mine would not have ever returned to normal levels because I did not have normal to begin with...
I hope you see what I am saying.

are you hoping that you will take a cycle and magically once you are off you will jump up to the 600 range for some reason? I hope your not thinking that, cuz it's not gonna happen. Love your levels or change them for life.

[Seansbeard]

welcome...

so do you have any symptoms of low T...

i was youre age when starting and NEVER had the same concern about hrt being for life...why would i want to stop?

your title says it all

Thanks for the welcome. I have never had symptoms of low testosterone , except for generally being on the weak side. Of course, for me this has always been a source of insecurity; I'm sure that a good argument could be made for HRT simply based on my personal desire to make changes in this area.

My brother on the other hand is huge with a thick full beard. He is taller and bigger boned and has major body hair; I've always been a bit envious. My theory is that I'm the runt of the litter, so that's my motivation. I do have a kid, so I'm pretty sure things are working on a basic level and I have a normal sex drive... When I was in high school, I smoked and was depressed with a poor appetite. During my freshmen year in college, my doctor told me to gain weight because I was too thin and that it could affect my health. I feel like that may have contributed to my 'lack of manliness' or at least reinforced a genetic/individual tendency.

Thanks to regular exercise and quitting smoking 13 years ago, I feel stronger and healthier and have pretty stable energy and mood. But it has always been an idea in the back of my head that testosterone could make up for what I naturally lack.

My initial idea was to cycle for a year as detailed in my above post and then, after allowing the effects to influence my body, quit. Kind of like inducing a second growth spurt. I realize now, though some reading, that it may not work out the way I've dreamed it up; gains in secondary sex characteristics and well being will likely return to what they were if I'm no longer taking hormones and they could even fall below what they are now. Obviously delving into HRT is a complex undertaking and requires more research on my part. I'm not at all saying that HRT is a negative choice; I just have to find out more about what HRT really entails and if it makes real sense in my situation.

I understand of course that there is no magic bullet in life and that the grass is always greener. That's why I'm here, to get a realistic idea of what the risks and rewards are. For example, I may want to have more kids someday, so that is something I have to look into too.

[Seansbeard]

Bounce back...? you don't have a good baseline to bounce back to. Bouncing back is for people who have it. If you don't have it you don't have it, and it gets worse as you get older.

Mine would not have ever returned to normal levels because I did not have normal to begin with...
I hope you see what I am saying.

are you hoping that you will take a cycle and magically once you are off you will jump up to the 600 range for some reason? I hope your not thinking that, cuz it's not gonna happen. Love your levels or change them for life.

Thanks for the reality check. I'm going to do more research and keep reading here until I get a really clear idea if this is what I want and if my ideas match up wit the reality of HRT. I really appreciate the sobering response. Thank you.

[zaggahamma]

Thanks for the welcome. I have never had symptoms of low testosterone , except for generally being on the weak side. Of course, for me this has always been a source of insecurity; I'm sure that a good argument could be made for HRT simply based on my personal desire to make changes in this area.

My brother on the other hand is huge with a thick full beard. He is taller and bigger boned and has major body hair; I've always been a bit envious. My theory is that I'm the runt of the litter, so that's my motivation. I do have a kid, so I'm pretty sure things are working on a basic level and I have a normal sex drive... When I was in high school, I smoked and was depressed with a poor appetite. During my freshmen year in college, my doctor told me to gain weight because I was too thin and that it could affect my health. I feel like that may have contributed to my 'lack of manliness' or at least reinforced a genetic/individual tendency.

Thanks to regular exercise and quitting smoking 13 years ago, I feel stronger and healthier and have pretty stable energy and mood. But it has always been an idea in the back of my head that testosterone could make up for what I naturally lack.

My initial idea was to cycle for a year as detailed in my above post and then, after allowing the effects to influence my body, quit. Kind of like inducing a second growth spurt. I realize now, though some reading, that it may not work out the way I've dreamed it up; gains in secondary sex characteristics and well being will likely return to what they were if I'm no longer taking hormones and they could even fall below what they are now. Obviously delving into HRT is a complex undertaking and requires more research on my part. I'm not at all saying that HRT is a negative choice; I just have to find out more about what HRT really entails and if it makes real sense in my situation.

I understand of course that there is no magic bullet in life and that the grass is always greener. That's why I'm here, to get a realistic idea of what the risks and rewards are. For example, I may want to have more kids someday, so that is something I have to look into too.

excellent attitude and outlook....i too, wonder how long i may have been low T and possibly could have benefited from a therapy...i obviously did with an early life cycle (albeit misguided and misplanned)...but after starting trt, i have experienced nothing short of a miracle and dont have to look back and have heard others say the same
wish you the best and look forward to your future posts when you get all your questions answered