The Dbol Only Debate.

[LeroyB]

I PERSONALLY WOULD NOT RUN A DBOL ONLY CYCLE.
(read the above again before you flame me).
But - I have been researching Dbol and stumbled across quite a bit of information from another site. This site has helped me the most so I want to post up the info and get comments. Please don't start a flame war, this is a topic that obviously has not been "put to rest" by the AAS community at large. So lets talk about it.
Here is the info I found. Sorry I can not link back to the original site obviuosly.

In this study, done in the early 80´s, a very high dose of Dbol (100mgs/day for 6 weeks) decreased plasma testosterone to about 40% of it´s normal value, plasma GH went up about a third, LH dropped to about 80% of it´s original value, and FSH went down about a third also (these are all approximate numbers, for the sake of brevity, but you get the idea). Body fat did not go up significantly and Fat Free Mass went up anywhere between 2-7kgs (3.3kgs average gain). The researchers concluded that Dbol increases Fat Free Mass as well as increasing strength and performance. I can only agree, having found this to be the case for me when I did my first cycle (which was 6 weeks of dbol alone at 25mgs/day), I gained roughly 25lbs and kept nearly ½ of it. Since then, Dbol has always had a special place in my heart.

In order to successfully bridge between cycles (and this means using a low dose of AAS, in this case dbol), you need to recover your natural hormonal levels to pre-cycle levels or to within acceptable parameters, and then you start your next cycle. The idea here is that you won´t lose any gains, but rather a low dose of an AAS will help you maintain them. Typically, you´d use around 10mgs/day of dbol and combine it with an aggressive Post-Cycle Therapy (PCT) course of Nolvadex (and/or Clomid) and HCG. This would give you full androgen replacement from the Dbol and a shot at recovering your natural hormonal levels via the other stuff you are taking. Remember, the 100mg/day dose of dbol in the study we looked at earlier did not suppress Test, LH, or FSH to a degree that would make recovery impossible and certainly not with 1/10th that dose in conjunction with an aggressive PCT.

After testosterone suspension, and various forms of testosterone, this was second Anabolic Steroid ever produced. It’s simply testosterone with a minor alteration (an added 1-2 double carbon bond), and an added 17a-methyl group. This does two things. The added 17a-methyl group serves to allow it to pass through the liver without being totally destroyed, and the 1-2 double bond slows the rate of conversion to estrogen (aromatization). Although conversion to estrogen is going to be less than with testosterone, it’s actually still going to be enough to cause potential side-effects because it converts to a very potent type of estrogen. Dianabol (often just called Dbol for short) is typically only seen in bulking cycles- and then only for the first 4-6 weeks. Common doses are between 20mgs/day for a beginner and double to triple that for an advanced user.

Although Dbol is usually found in pill form it can also be found as an injectable. As with Winstrol, both versions are exactly the same, just suspended in water or oil versus a pill, capsule or as a paper anabolic. Regardless of the form it takes, it is still a 17aa steroid; which means two things, for our purposes. The first is that it has been altered at the 17th Carbon position, in order to resist being inactivated by your liver, and the second is that as a result, your liver enzymes will be elevated as a result of this resistance to inactivation. This is good because it means that the active chemical will make its way into your blood stream- and it’s bad because these elevated enzymes can stress your liver. In reasonable doses, which I believe to be up to 50mgs/day, the main “side effect” is going to be rapid weight gain. Its watery weight sometimes and not typically considered “clean” gains, but it’s definitely going to make you stronger. I’ve seen studies using some pretty high doses of Dianabol, and the subjects didn’t really suffer any intolerable side effects (1).

Often, Dbol is compared to Anadrol 50 and in many ways that comparison is apt. Although Anadrol is derived from Dihydrotestosterone and Dianabol is derived from testosterone, they still share a couple of similarities when we take a look at them from an effects & side effects point of view. Both of them cause a rapid buildup of both strength and weight at equal doses, both produce a bit of a bloated look, both are going to stress your liver to an extent as well as raise your blood pressure. Interestingly, both also bind very weakly to the Androgen Receptor, so many of their effects are thought to be non-receptor mediated, and are attributable to other mechanisms. Although Dbol has only modest aromatase activity (2), I really have to stress that it metabolizes to a very potent estrogen.

The use of Dianabol is currently popular for jumpstarting a bulking cycle, and thus seeing immediate results from the outset of the cycle. For this reason it’s often stacked with longer acting injectables such as Testosterone Cypionate or Enanthate, and Deca-Durabolin. The rationale here with this is that the Dbol will give the user a rapid buildup of weight and strength, and those gains can be compounded when the injectables begin to produce results. This is typically done for the first 2-6 weeks of a cycle, with 4 weeks being the most typical time span.

In this study, done in the early 80´s, a very high dose of Dbol (100mgs/day for 6 weeks) decreased plasma testosterone to about 40% of it´s normal value, plasma GH went up about a third, LH dropped to about 80% of it´s original value, and FSH went down about a third also (these are all approximate numbers, for the sake of brevity, but you get the idea). Body fat did not go up significantly and Fat Free Mass went up anywhere between 2-7kgs (3.3kgs average gain). The researchers concluded that Dbol increases Fat Free Mass as well as increasing strength and performance. I can only agree, having found this to be the case for me when I did my first cycle (which was 6 weeks of dbol alone at 25mgs/day), I gained roughly 25lbs and kept nearly ½ of it. Since then, Dbol has always had a special place in my heart.

Dianabol Side Effects
As with many other 17aa steroids, Dianabol is also a very weak binder to the Androgen Receptor, so most of it´s effects are thought to be non-receptor mediated, and are attributable to other mechanisms (i.e. protein synthesis as indicated by the production of muscle tissue with very high levels of nitrogen, etc... which was indicated in the 100mg/day study). This also means it only has a modest aromatase activity (2).

How strong is Dbol? Well...on a mg for mg basis, most people agree that it´s stronger than A50...but the reason most people don´t get the same gains off of Dbol is that almost nobody takes equivalent doses (I mean...I´ve heard of people taking 150mgs of A50, but not Dbol, even though the dbol would probably provide more solid gains and be less toxic, I suspect).

So how do we incorporate this stuff into our AAS regimen? Clearly, the inclusion of Dbol at any point in a cycle would contribute to gains, however, I´d speculate that Dbol is most regularly used for 2 reasons:

At the start of a cycle to "Kick Start" gains
As a "Bridge" between cycles, to maintain gains
Lets examine these two uses.

Dianabol Cycle
In order to kick start a dianabol cycle, usually what you do is incorporate a fast acting oral like dianabol (or anadrol) and combine it with long acting injectables (such as Deca or Eq with some Testosterone). The reasoning here is that the oral (Dbol in this case) will give almost immediate results, while the injectable takes time to produce results. The end result is that you start seeing results within the first week of your cycle and continue up until the end with the injectables. This entails taking anywhere from 25-50mgs of dbol (although as little as 20mgs or as much as 100mgs have been reported) for 3-6 weeks at the start of a cycle (average time for a "Kick Start" is 4 weeks, though), and then ceasing their use as the injectables start to produce results.

In order to successfully bridge between cycles (and this means using a low dose of AAS, in this case dbol), you need to recover your natural hormonal levels to pre-cycle levels or to within acceptable parameters, and then you start your next cycle. The idea here is that you won´t lose any gains, but rather a low dose of an AAS will help you maintain them. Typically, you´d use around 10mgs/day of dbol and combine it with an aggressive Post-Cycle Therapy (PCT) course of Nolvadex (and/or Clomid) and HCG. This would give you full androgen replacement from the Dbol and a shot at recovering your natural hormonal levels via the other stuff you are taking. Remember, the 100mg/day dose of dbol in the study we looked at earlier did not suppress Test, LH, or FSH to a degree that would make recovery impossible and certainly not with 1/10th that dose in conjunction with an aggressive PCT.

All in all, this is a very good drug, and a potent tool for quick gains or retaining gains...when used properly and safely.

References:

Serakovskii S, Mats´koviak I., Effect of methanedienone (methandrostenolone) on energy processes and carbohydrate metabolism in rat liver cells, Farmakol Toksikol 1981 Mar-Apr;44(2):213-7
Brain Res. 1998 May 11;792(2):271-6.
Chemfinder. Copyright 2004 CambridgeSoft Corporation. Cambridge, MA, USA.
Br Med J. 1975 May 31;2(5969):471-3.
Anabolic Steroids - Steroid .com
http://www.*****************.com
Clin Sci (Lond). 1981 Apr;60(4):457-61
Steroids. 1984 Dec;44(6):485-95.
Vrach Delo. 1983 Nov;(11):34-6. Russian
Acta Med Acad Sci Hung. 1975;32(1):27-34
4 Nesterin MF, Budik VM, Narodetskaia RV, Solov´eva GI, Stoianova VG., Effect of methandrostenolone on liver morphology and enzymatic activity, Farmakol Toksikol 1980 Sep-Oct;43(5):597-601

Comments.
Because it looks like to me that you most certainly CAN run a Dbol only cycle and get and keep gains off of it.

[.EA.]

Again, it would vary from person to person. Age, diet, length of a person's gym history and so on.


Then again, if you run anything at high doses, you're going to get gains off it.

[LeroyB]

Well in the first quote it is noted that:

when I did my first cycle (which was 6 weeks of dbol alone at 25mgs/day), I gained roughly 25lbs and kept nearly ½ of it.

[Bossman]

Well in the first quote it is noted that:
Quote:
when I did my first cycle (which was 6 weeks of dbol alone at 25mgs/day), I gained roughly 25lbs and kept nearly ½ of it.


Do you really think he gained 12-1/2 lbs of lean mass in 6 weeks? On 25mgs of Dbol alone? I highly doubt it. The only time I see someone gaining real mass in a short period of time is when they rebound after a long calorie deficit diet. But, the muscle gained was muscle they already had before the diet.

When you take away the fat, and water, 12 lbs of solid muscle gain in a year is very good.

I do think you can gain from a dbol only cycle. Ive seen many do it. As long as they follow a very good PCT, eat and train properly it can be done. But you're not going to put on 12 lbs of lean mass in 6 weeks with 25mgs of dbol, no way.

[anabolic1979]

if its someones first cycle and they eat properly, train properly sure

[gymnerd]

dbol only will give gains for sure. It wont be as good as if you stacked it with test though. I remember 10years ago or so my gym partner was juicing heavy his first few cycles were dbol only with no pct and he got big and strong off it. We obviously know better now that there are better ways. If I was going to run dbol only I would run a lower dose 25-30mg tops and run it longer 6-8wks (which is fine with the lower dose).

I think the only reason people loose alot of their gains from dbol only is they run it too heavy and not long enough 4wks is not long enough to build alot of muscle but its plenty of time to blow you up with water. Back then no one was running 80mg ED of dbol like I see now no one I knew anyways but they would all run it for alot longer than 4wks too.

[LeroyB]

dbol only will give gains for sure. It wont be as good as if you stacked it with test though. I remember 10years ago or so my gym partner was juicing heavy his first few cycles were dbol only with no pct and he got big and strong off it. We obviously know better now that there are better ways. If I was going to run dbol only I would run a lower dose 25-30mg tops and run it longer 6-8wks (which is fine with the lower dose).

I think the only reason people loose alot of their gains from dbol only is they run it too heavy and not long enough 4wks is not long enough to build alot of muscle but its plenty of time to blow you up with water. Back then no one was running 80mg ED of dbol like I see now no one I knew anyways but they would all run it for alot longer than 4wks too.

This is EXACTLY what I thought and thats why I was doing some digging.

[MotoLifter]

When you take away the fat, and water, 12 lbs of solid muscle gain in a year is very good.

100% agreed. lean, permanant, muscle.


Moto

[bifda]

diet in check, train hard, low dose for 4-6 weeks works imho.

ive done 3 dbol only cycles over 2 years and everytime ive gained more, got stronger and its been easier each time to break my PB lifts.

no pct, back pumps were not too bad ,got sweats at night and no gyno!!

in fact i found i respond the same at 25mgs as 40 mgs daily, my last cycle was 20 mgs daily 5mgs every 4 hours.

the main reason for taking the dbol was to break my rut on the bench. for some reason i was stuck at 225 for 10-12 reps, after 5 weeks at 30 mgs a day i went upto 315 for 10 NO BULL. i was over the f*uckin moon benched 405 for 1RM.
i lose size and strength of course when im not on the cycle for months,but i can still bench 315 for reps.

now i know stacked with test would soooo much better ,but i know my test is high and atm im gaining everytime i use the bol and i recover fully too.
no probs in the sack, very aggressive naturally and balls never change.

im actually going to get bloods done this time, before, during and after.
if im right and the tests confirm my thoughts ill post them up here, but if they are bad and im not recovering ill tuck my tail and F*uck off lol.

2 years, no probs and lots of gains, dbol only aint such a bad cycle if its done properly and with some half decent genetics.

flame away lol

[LeroyB]

Yea in some respects I think its a good introduction cycle. Its easy, no pins, and works, BUT because of that it probably pulls a lot of "kids" into the game and they probably shouldn't be in it. That is one reason I would not promote the dbol only cycle. But I think this thread has properly identified that you can do a dbol only cycle and get gain and keep them.
(I personally get bloat like a mofo from dbol!)
Keep on posting experience and comments thanks.

[BigIce]

It says that most of it´s effects are thought to be non-receptor mediated. (protein synthesis and...)

And that a low dose of 20mg or so have produced gains quite like a higher 40mg dose.

Also if it is used for longer at a lower dose it is not as bad on the liver.

Then why not run it at something like 10mg a day while on a test cycle, 8-12 weeks maybe.
Not just in the kickstart

Now Im just asking here, because I don´t know.

[gymnerd]

It says that most of it´s effects are thought to be non-receptor mediated. (protein synthesis and...)

And that a low dose of 20mg or so have produced gains quite like a higher 40mg dose.

Also if it is used for longer at a lower dose it is not as bad on the liver.

Then why not run it at something like 10mg a day while on a test cycle, 8-12 weeks maybe.
Not just in the kickstart

Now Im just asking here, because I don´t know.

10mg isn't going to give you much if anything at all. I usually dont get anything untill about 20mg, 25-30 is a nice zone for me 50 is just too high. I really believe in using oral sparingly and let most of the gains come from injectables.

If you are already injecting I usually suggest just run a low dose at the beginning or the end with something like winni just dont get greedy. Dbol 25-30mg ed or drol at 50mg ed is enough to give nice consistent gains for the first few wks until the injectables kick in which are better muscle builders in the long run either way.

[El Corvino]

When you take away the fat, and water, 12 lbs of solid muscle gain in a year is very good.

I never reached my natural peak. Before AAS I would work out for 6 months, not see good enough results and quit for a few months, then work out, then quit. Since starting I AAS, I am currently in my 2nd cycle and have gained 27 lbs of lean muscle and lost 7.5lbs of fat in the last 9 months. I did not loose much during PCT and this time around I will be doing IGF during PCT to gain even more and retain as much muscle as possible.

I think for a fully developed body builder, 12 lbs of solid muscle every year is very good. For most of the people on this site, most of that should be attainable from 1 cycle.

If anyone wants to flame or call BS, I get calipered every week and can post my charts... though I kinda hope someone takes my side because I don't want to scan and crap.

[BigIce]

10mg isn't going to give you much if anything at all. I usually dont get anything untill about 20mg, 25-30 is a nice zone for me 50 is just too high. I really believe in using oral sparingly and let most of the gains come from injectables.

If you are already injecting I usually suggest just run a low dose at the beginning or the end with something like winni just dont get greedy. Dbol 25-30mg ed or drol at 50mg ed is enough to give nice consistent gains for the first few wks until the injectables kick in which are better muscle builders in the long run either way.

for sure, test is the way to go imo.

I am just wondering if the protein synthesis property of the dbol would be a nice addition to a cycle for the long run.

I know this is off topic, Im sorry for that, this one just got me thinking.

I got great strength gains from 30mg a day but thats as high as I would go.

[graeme87]

dbol is a strong steroid and will add size and strength no doubt. A lot of the gains are water bloat bu7t there is muscle too.

For a first cycle i think it would work but I don't think the gains from a dbol only cycle would be worth it. To go on a 4-6 weeks cycle then 4 weeks PCT then take time off before next cycle it's not really worth it.

[Swifto]

I did Dbol with an AI for about 3-4 weeks. Put on around 4-5lbs, strength went up a fair amount.

I did experience lack of labido and energy though. So adding a small amount of Testosterone is advised.

[art]

Guys, don't you think that gaining some fat and water retention is caused not by DBol but by bulking diet?
Or there's something about DBol that makes you necessarily gain fat and retain water?

[corsa5000]

Guys, don't you think that gaining some fat and water retention is caused not by DBol but by bulking diet?
Or there's something about DBol that makes you necessarily gain fat and retain water?

no a bulking diet is not directly responsible for the water bloat on dbol, thats just the drug

[Bossman]

Since starting I AAS, I am currently in my 2nd cycle and have gained 27 lbs of lean muscle and lost 7.5lbs of fat in the last 9 months.

Yep, I don't believe it.

I think for a fully developed body builder, 12 lbs of solid muscle every year is very good. For most of the people on this site, most of that should be attainable from 1 cycle.
I

Actually, 5+ lbs is a good gain for a fully developed bodybuilder.

[TITANIUM]

Interesting read.

Best

T

[gymnerd]

I did Dbol with an AI for about 3-4 weeks. Put on around 4-5lbs, strength went up a fair amount.

I did experience lack of labido and energy though. So adding a small amount of Testosterone is advised.

Would you compair dbol + AI to anavar? I heard it put that way a couple of times.

[dec11]

my only exp of it on its own was that it ended up a waste of time and money

[Swifto]

Would you compair dbol + AI to anavar? I heard it put that way a couple of times.

Never used Var.

[nancy_axel]

dBol = loads of water weight which is sure to dissappoint once you get off of it. dBol gives excellant pumps and great gains but in all honestly, should be combined with something like deba and an aromatase inhibitor so that you get long-term, sustainable gains. best of luck.

[Critical Mass]

Dbol bloats me less than test e. Diet plays a big part in it too.
Is a dbol only cycle optimal. NO. Can it be done. SURE.

[bifda]

old thread but i thought id update.

when i finished my cycle of dbol 20mgs ed in the first week of november i could bench 315 pounds for 10-12 reps.
i was ill the end of november (flu) and did not go back to the gym till this monday.
i benched 315 for 8 reps and 337 for a few.

so it seems it varies from person to person, i could not rep that weight before i cycled with dbol and have kept most of the strenght.

im not condoning this especially to the younger members, but dbol only can work, dependant on goals.

i will get bloodwork done to make sure im recovering, ill keep this thread updated.

bif.

check post #9 for more info.

[LeroyB]

Thanks for the information - and update. Good info here.

[El Corvino]

Essentially you can run anything by itself... that is not a debate. Its just more optimal to run it with other things (like test as a base).

So to say you CAN NOT run it by itself is simply wrong. Its just not optimal, and in the world of AAS, most people are looking for the best stack and the way to get the best gains.

There, thread solved.

[Crest]

its all parrot talk, i kept gains from my first cycle which was dbol only, plus it's easier to recover from than a lot of other steroids. its easily my favorite roid i say crack on if that's what you want to do.