Tamoxifen, Clomid, Toremifene and Rolaxifene. Which for what?

[Swifto]

is there any thread from swifto that is not sticky-worthy?

maybe we should move this to the Educational subforum, where important things like this don't get washed off the first page too quickly.

Threads do exist, yes.

I don't write so much anymore, a few per year perhaps.

A lot of threads don't get read at all in the Educaitonal Forum, but it can be moved there.

[AD]

You can see how quickly useful stuffs like this are washed down the page by other meaningless threads. Its such a waste when its not stickied.

[OdinsOtherSon]

^ This. Bump.

I have subscribed to numerous posts from Swifto for exactly this reason.

[OdinsOtherSon]

Can we get this thread stickied?

[Brick]

Nice lost

[Granovich]

can you use all 3 of them
or is it too much ???
which is better
tamox/tore
tamox/clomid
tamox/tore/clomid ?

[shredded]

This should be a sticky, Great post Swifto.

[OdinsOtherSon]

^^ I totally agree.

[vikingblood]

Hi everyone,

So I just read through this post and it was very imformative. I heard a lot of bad things about Clomid, and wanted to find a replacement. I will be doing my first cycle in a few months after I learn somemore and get established here. I have read through the beginner cycle threads a few times and I think I am just going to do the below cycle. My question is can I replace Clomid in this cycle with something or is it not needed? Also I read Test C will increase my RBC, so in turn this should help out with my endurance, correct?


Option 1. Long Ester

Wk 1-10 Testosterone Cypionate = 200mg twice/wk e3.5d
Wk 1-10 Arimidex .25mg eod – monitor and adjust accordingly.
Wk 1- 12.5 hCG = 250iu twice/wk day before test injection.

PCT
Begins wk 13 to wk 17

Clomid 75/50/50/50
Nolva 40/40/20/20

[OdinsOtherSon]

Hi everyone,

So I just read through this post and it was very imformative. I heard a lot of bad things about Clomid, and wanted to find a replacement. I will be doing my first cycle in a few months after I learn somemore and get established here. I have read through the beginner cycle threads a few times and I think I am just going to do the below cycle. My question is can I replace Clomid in this cycle with something or is it not needed? Also I read Test C will increase my RBC, so in turn this should help out with my endurance, correct?


Option 1. Long Ester

Wk 1-10 Testosterone Cypionate = 200mg twice/wk e3.5d
Wk 1-10 Arimidex .25mg eod – monitor and adjust accordingly.
Wk 1- 12.5 hCG = 250iu twice/wk day before test injection.

PCT
Begins wk 13 to wk 17

Clomid 75/50/50/50
Nolva 40/40/20/20

Good move on:

I will be doing my first cycle in a few months after I learn somemore

That demonstrates a LOT of maturity on your part!

We really should see your stats, i.e., weight/height, body fat, years training, dietary protocols and goals to give you a better over all picture. It could be that you simply need to bide your time for a while and get your training and diet dialed in first. Not saying that a cycle is off the table, just that without knowing where you stand now is also important. If you aren't already close to your genetic potential and/or don't know how to feed yourself properly, AAS will yield you nothing or any gains you do make will simply be lost because you do not know how to feed yourself correctly. So, that being said, let's see your weight, height and body fat percentage and also an example of a day's worth of your typical eating patterns.

[harleyrider]

Looking for information as I am new to this. I'm 69 and work out 6 days a week. (cardo/lifting). I am now using androgel at 4 pumps daily. My last T reading was 311 after being on the androgel awhile. Could any one tell me if clomid would help raise my T? If yes how much for how long and with or without the androgel? Thanks. (Swifto)

[vikingblood]

I am a Crossfitter and I fall into the Paleo diet with the exception of milk. I am not a crazy paleo fanatic, I just think it is a easy way to judge good from the bad and it works for me. I dont aspire to be a bodybuilder just stronger and faster. I have been crossfitting for 2 years and before that lifted on and off for 6 years, I have a Crossfit trainer but still cant seem to catch up with the top guys. I feel like I train my butt off but dont make huge leaps in performance like a lot of guys I know and I eat better them for sure. My genetic background is german and Norweign, my father is a big man and he doest really workout and my mother also gets in real good shape when she trys. So I think I have the genetics, just not sure why I havent hit my stride yet. I feel tired and unmotivated a lot, I have been asked before if I have low test. I am a very, very , very passive person, hardly ever mad and everyone thinks I am the nicest guy the know. Now I know that doesnt really link that much to test but I think it hrts my workouts because I cant find the fire to get pumped to walk up to a heavy PR lift and crush it. This may be to much info but anything that youguys can use to help me would be apreciated. I have a video of me doing a workout about 6 months ago so you can see my body comp if need be? Thanks



Wake up at 6

Snack- 6:10

Protien Shake
Apple

Tech-6:30 ( I am a Crossfit trainer, I teach at 630 am)

Lift-7:30

Breakfast-8:30

4 eggs
3 Slices of bacon
1/2 avocado
Bell pepper (raw)
Orange

Snack-10

Protien shake
Apple

Lunch-12

Meat of some sort, around 5-6 oz
Green veggies, etc. Broccli, Brussle's, Spianch (6 cups)
Bell Peppers
Almonds

Snack-3
Protien shake
BCAA powder

Crossfit-530

Dinner-730
Meat- 6 OZ
Veggie, or sweet potatos
Nuts

Snack-9:30
Protien shake

Bed-10:00

My stats:
Age 26
Height 6 ft.
Wieght 198
BF 12-15%
Squat 325
Deadlift 355
Bench 305
Press 205
Clean 245
Jerk 245
Snatch 185
Mile run 6:30
400M run 1:25

Goals
Weight 185-190
BF 8-10
Squat 400
Dealift 485
Bench 350
Press 230
Clean 300
Jerk 350
Snatch 250
Mile run 6:00
400m Run 1:10

[OdinsOtherSon]

FYI: You may get more response by starting your own thread...perhaps in the nutrition forum.

I'm no nutrition expert, and I don't know how often you workout or what your typical workouts consist of but if you're able to maintain those workout stats on the diet you posted, that's amazing. For the energy you should be expending to to maintain that capability vs the caloric intake you've posted its gonna be difficult for you to make any headway. That might account for your inability to "find the fire" in your workouts. You need to calculate your TDEE (total daily energy expenditure) based on LBM (lean body mass) X 15, as follows: Body weight = 198. LBM 198* .85 = 168lbs. 168lbs is you lean body mass. 168*15 = 2520 cal. This is your maintenance calorie needs. I see you want to lose weight, yet gain strength....that's gonna be tough. You need fuel to move those extra pounds of iron. Plus throw the cardio in on top...I personally think this is going to be next to impossible. This reinforces my theory that your lack of calories is the prime culprit in your "lack of fire" statement. But, post it up in the nutrition forum and maybe we can get >>405<< or gbrice to chime in. They're the expert.

My $0.02

[vikingblood]

Thanks I will do that, I really apreciate all the help here. All you guys on here are awesome and a plaeasure to talk to. Keep up the great work, people need to know how to stay fit and hopefully save our future generations of kids from being overweight. Thanks again!

[Lemonada8]

can you use all 3 of them
or is it too much ???
which is better
tamox/tore
tamox/clomid
tamox/tore/clomid ?

IMO, Clomid and Tamox is the best combo for PCT.
Tamox and Tore are basically the same thing, with Tore being a 2nd generation so it doesnt have the antagonistic properties as much at other sites ( osteoclasts, and the liver for instance).. they do the same thing at the pituitary gland. The combo would be safer than doubling up on Tamox b/c of the more selectiveness of Tore.
If you are prone to anxiety with clomid ( due to the effect at the amygadala) then using Tamox/tore would work; yet IMO u should still use clomid.
If HCG is not used on cycle, then clomid is a MUST!
Using all 3 would be overkill, or you would be taking the proper doses but you would have to take 1/2 of the dose of each.. which then the selectiveness becomes less of an issue.

my PCT recommendation would be:
Clomid - 100mg Ed week 1: 50mg ED week 2-3: (Optional) 25mg ED week 4
Tamox - 40mg ED week 1, 20mg ED week 2-6
** HCG on cycle is a MUST, 250iu 2x a week for the whole cycle up untill the first day of *TAKING* pct meds.. so keep using it in the downtime after last shot and before PCT starts.

If the anxiety is a real bad issue w/ the clomid: lower the doses by 25mg... but the first week of clomid at 100mg ED is key.

If yall wanna discuss the physiology behind this, just ask... but for a quick sake..
Clomid increases LH pulsatile release amplitude - however with extended usage, can dampen the response to LHRH which lessens the LH released ( think of it as the "turbo" in a racing game, that you only have a certain amount to use; but with clomid, if you keep trying to use it, the response will go down * so in the racing game, the big burst of speed at the start, but if u keep doing it, it will slow you down)
Tamox increases the frequency of the LH pulses and actually increases the response to LHRH which helps recovery, hence why its used for 6 weeks..

[Lemonada8]

Thats a very good question.

SERMs such as Rolaxifene, can exert apoptosis in androgen-responsive human cells (prostate). But do so in an androgen independant manner (neither up regulation/down regulation of the AR).
.

Going deeper w/ the prostate thing.. the prostate has estrogen recpetors also, 2 types.. One type increases proliferation and one increases apoptosis. It isnt always DHT that causes prostate growth, it can be excess estrogen also, the stimulation of the proliferative ER essentially 'overtakes' the apoptosis regulation from the other estrogen receptor.

More info here: http://molpharm.aspetjournals.org/co...54/1/105.short

"raloxifene displayed an ERα-selective antagonist potency, in agreement with its ERα-selective affinity. "

and more on the receptor types
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/277/5331/1508.short
" ERα and ERβ were shown to signal in opposite ways when complexed with the natural hormone estradiol from an AP1 site: with ERα, 17β-estradiol activated transcription, whereas with ERβ, 17β-estradiol inhibited transcription. Moreover, the antiestrogens tamoxifen, raloxifene, and Imperial Chemical Industries 164384 were potent transcriptional activators with ERβ at an AP1 site."