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  1. #1
    Swifto's Avatar
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    Tamoxifen, Clomid, Toremifene and Rolaxifene. Which for what?

    I'd just like to clear a few things up...

    Below are some facts regarding Tamoxifen , Clomid, Toremifene and Rolaxifene:


    - Tamoxifen is NOT weak at restoring the HPTA, post cycle. Its as effective, perhaps more, than Clomid.

    - Tamoxifen alone will restore HPTA function in around 6 weeks (sometimes less) at 20mg/ED. Thats what the data states. I'm not sure AAS user's should be using 40mg/ED of Tamoxifen. Thats a large dose for males IMHO. A smaller dose of 20mg/ED should be used for more lengthy peroids, rather than larger doses for shorter durations. There is also no evidence that states 40mg/ED is BETTER than 20mg/ED for HPTA restoration.

    - Clomid is made up of 2 isomers:

    Clomiphene is a mixed agonist/antagonist. This is due o the fact that clomiphene is composed of two isomers: enclomiphene (trans-clomiphene) and zuclomiphene (cis-clomiphene). Enclomiphene is an estradiol receptor antagonist. Zuclomiphene is an estradiol receptor agonist. In all likelihood, the net antagonist effect might be due to the composition being 70% trans (enclomiphene) and 30% cis (zuclomiphene). Tamoxifen is more of a strict antiestrogen, decreases the effect of estrogen in the body, and potentiates the action of clomiphene. This combination came about after 100s of clinical experience. - Michael Scally MD

    So Tamoxifen is more of an antagonist, than Clomid is. Its better at blocking the ER than Clomid is. Clomid also seems to exert agonistic effects in parts of the brain that control emotion. That would explain why some turn into women on peroids during there experiences with Clomid.

    Tamoxifen is also made of slightly more isomers, the cis isomer of tamoxifen (inactive one) trans-tamoxifen and trans-4-OHT isomer.


    Few facts...

    - Clomid will double LH at 100mg/ED in 5-7 days and increase FSH by 20-50%. LH rises quickly post cycle, but not that quick.

    - Clomid will raise enodgenous testosterone (total) by 146% after 3 months at 25mg/ED. As shown in this study.

    - Clomid at 100mg/ED will raise endogenous testosterone (total) by 268% after 8 weeks and free testosterone by 1,410% (Thats not a typo). As shown in this study.

    - When Clomid and Tamoxifen where compared in this study. Tamoxifen increased serum testosterone to 142% of baseline in only 10 days. It took 150mg/ED of Clomid to get the same 142% increase. After 6 weeks it raised testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of starting values.

    Another thing to note after the above study is how sensitive the pituitary become to GnRH. The more sensitive the pituitary is to GnRH, the more LH it will produce. Tamoxifen increase pituitary sensitivity to GnRH and Clomid seemed to decrease it.

    - Estrogen will decrease sensitivity to GnRH. It will not increase it. If estrogen were to increase the pituitary to GnRH it calleds "estrogen priming". Priming the pituitary to become more sensitive to GnRH. This happens in females, but not males. There is no evidence to suggest there is E priming in males.

    - Tamoxifen is more an an antiestrogen than Clomid is. Both are SERM's and selective with agonistic/antagonistic effects in "selective" tissues. Both will block the ER in breast tissue. Both are agonists in the liver, which would explain the increase in IGF binding proteins and decrease in plasma IGF.


    So what about Toremifene and Rolaxifene...

    In a recent study done on Tamox, Tore and Rolax comparing HPTA restoration. Tamoxifen can out on top. In 8 weeks, 20mg/ED of Tamoxifen increased LH from 4.54 to 7.73 and Test from 496.59 to 835.06. After two months, 60mg/day of Toremifene increased LH from 4.05 to 5.05 and Test from 496.59 to 709.79.

    The Tore dose is low IMHO though. I've used far more. 120mg/ED for 7-14 days. Followed by 100mg/ED, then down to 60mg/ED over 3-4 weeks.

    - Tore will increase pituitary sensitivity to GnRH, as Tamoxifen did. As discussed above.

    - Rolax is fairly weak at restoring the HPTA. Its best used for treating gyno (Evista) and has the highest affinity for breast tissue out of the current SERMs. So it has its uses.

    There is limited clinical data on both Tore and Rolax, but Tore improves lipid values more potently than most other SERMs and increases bone mineral density very well.

    So what are your thoughts Swifto?

    I dont think it matters what SERM(s) you choose for PCT. But go with either Clomid, Tore or Tamox. Using 2 would be a better choice IMHO. The data states Tamoxifen is better than Clomid in a head to head comparison. The data also states Tamoxifen is better than Toremifene and Rolaxifene in head to head comparisons...But take the doses into account.

    The backbone of my PCT is Tore + Tamox 20mg/ED or Clomid 25mg/ED.

    For gyno Rolax should be your first choice. Then Tamox and Tore. Clomid isnt the mose effective at fighting gyno.

    All SERMs such as Tamoxifen seem to lower plasma IGF and increase IGF binding proteins, imporve lipids and bone mineral density too.

    2nd Gen SERMs (Tore, Rolax) are safer than 1st Gen (Clomid, Tamox).

    I hope this has shed more of a light in SERMs, their actions and uses.

    Decide for youself which you use for what...
    Last edited by Swifto; 03-26-2010 at 02:40 PM.

  2. #2
    tboney's Avatar
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    As always! Great info Swift! Thanks for the effort.

  3. #3
    tboney's Avatar
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    I think I shared with you just how positive my experience with torem has been. I did run it at higher doses than the 60mgs indicated in the above mentioned study.

  4. #4
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    Nice work Swift. Concise, easy to understand and helpful. Thanks man.

    that info is newb gold right there.


    Moto

  5. #5
    Swifto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tboney View Post
    I think I shared with you just how positive my experience with torem has been. I did run it at higher doses than the 60mgs indicated in the above mentioned study.
    I know of no-one that had bad or average experiences with Tore for PCT. EVERYONE loved it and now uses it for PCT. Along with Tamox, Clomid or alone.

    Best SERM bar none.

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    Thanks swifto. Now all we need is our buddy lion to stock toremifene

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post
    I know of no-one that had bad or average experiences with Tore for PCT. EVERYONE loved it and now uses it for PCT. Along with Tamox, Clomid or alone.

    Best SERM bar none.
    ive heard nithing but good stuff about it. wish ar-r carried it.

  8. #8
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    This is great thank you.

  9. #9
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    Thanks Swifto....nice post

  10. #10
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    Another great post swifto..... I'll be using torem durring my next PCT.....

    ~Haz~
    Failure is not and option..... ONLY beyond failure is - Haz

    Think beyond yourselves and remember this forum is for educated members to help advise SAFE usage of AAS, not just tell you what you want to hear
    - Knockout_Power

    NOT DOING SOURCE CHECKS......


  11. #11
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    Thank you sir!!

  12. #12
    Swifto's Avatar
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    bump

  13. #13
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    Bump for swifto

  14. #14
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    thanks for the info

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    DS21 is offline Member
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    Great post! I think your pct knowledge is far better then most but why would you use 2 Serms during your pct and not 1 Serm and 1 AI?

  16. #16
    Swifto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DS21 View Post
    Great post! I think your pct knowledge is far better then most but why would you use 2 Serms during your pct and not 1 Serm and 1 AI?
    I dont advocate the use of an AI during PCT. Think about it. Natural testosterone levels are low post cycle and most estrogen production (70-80%) comes from testosterone aromotasing to estrogen. So estrogen is already low. So why lower it more? Answer: You dont.

    You should be using an AI during PCT only if your using HCG . But even then minimal doses should be used and your better using HCG during the cycle, not in PCT.

  17. #17
    bigpapabuff's Avatar
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    great information on pct and research chemicals, I have always used the old standby clomid and nolva for my pct.

  18. #18
    dec11 is offline 'everything louder than everything else'
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post
    I'd just like to clear a few things up...

    Below are some facts regarding Tamoxifen , Clomid, Toremifene and Rolaxifene:


    - Tamoxifen is NOT weak at restoring the HPTA, post cycle. Its as effective, perhaps more, than Clomid.

    - Tamoxifen alone will restore HPTA function in around 6 weeks (sometimes less) at 20mg/ED. Thats what the data states. I'm not sure AAS user's should be using 40mg/ED of Tamoxifen. Thats a large dose for males IMHO. A smaller dose of 20mg/ED should be used for more lengthy peroids, rather than larger doses for shorter durations. There is also no evidence that states 40mg/ED is BETTER than 20mg/ED for HPTA restoration.

    - Clomid is made up of 2 isomers:

    Clomiphene is a mixed agonist/antagonist. This is due o the fact that clomiphene is composed of two isomers: enclomiphene (trans-clomiphene) and zuclomiphene (cis-clomiphene). Enclomiphene is an estradiol receptor antagonist. Zuclomiphene is an estradiol receptor agonist. In all likelihood, the net antagonist effect might be due to the composition being 70% trans (enclomiphene) and 30% cis (zuclomiphene). Tamoxifen is more of a strict antiestrogen, decreases the effect of estrogen in the body, and potentiates the action of clomiphene. This combination came about after 100s of clinical experience. - Michael Scally MD

    So Tamoxifen is more of an antagonist, than Clomid is. Its better at blocking the ER than Clomid is. Clomid also seems to exert agonistic effects in parts of the brain that control emotion. That would explain why some turn into women on peroids during there experiences with Clomid.

    Tamoxifen is also made of slightly more isomers, the cis isomer of tamoxifen (inactive one) trans-tamoxifen and trans-4-OHT isomer.


    Few facts...

    - Clomid will double LH at 100mg/ED in 5-7 days and increase FSH by 20-50%. LH rises quickly post cycle, but not that quick.

    - Clomid will raise enodgenous testosterone (total) by 146% after 3 months at 25mg/ED. As shown in this study.

    - Clomid at 100mg/ED will raise endogenous testosterone (total) by 268% after 8 weeks and free testosterone by 1,410% (Thats not a typo). As shown in this study.

    - When Clomid and Tamoxifen where compared in this study. Tamoxifen increased serum testosterone to 142% of baseline in only 10 days. It took 150mg/ED of Clomid to get the same 142% increase. After 6 weeks it raised testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of starting values.

    Another thing to note after the above study is how sensitive the pituitary become to GnRH. The more sensitive the pituitary is to GnRH, the more LH it will produce. Tamoxifen increase pituitary sensitivity to GnRH and Clomid seemed to decrease it.

    - Estrogen will decrease sensitivity to GnRH. It will not increase it. If estrogen were to increase the pituitary to GnRH it calleds "estrogen priming". Priming the pituitary to become more sensitive to GnRH. This happens in females, but not males. There is no evidence to suggest there is E priming in males.

    - Tamoxifen is more an an antiestrogen than Clomid is. Both are SERM's and selective with agonistic/antagonistic effects in "selective" tissues. Both will block the ER in breast tissue. Both are agonists in the liver, which would explain the increase in IGF.


    So what about Toremifene and Rolaxifene...

    In a recent study done on Tamox, Tore and Rolax comparing HPTA restoration. Tamoxifen can out on top. In 8 weeks, 20mg/ED of Tamoxifen increased LH from 4.54 to 7.73 and Test from 496.59 to 835.06. After two months, 60mg/day of Toremifene increased LH from 4.05 to 5.05 and Test from 496.59 to 709.79.

    The Tore dose is low IMHO though. I've used far more. 120mg/ED for 7-14 days. Followed by 100mg/ED, then down to 60mg/ED over 3-4 weeks.

    - Tore will increase pituitary sensitivity to GnRH, as Tamoxifen did. As discussed above.

    - Rolax is fairly weak at restoring the HPTA. Its best used for treating gyno (Evista) and has the highest affinity for breast tissue out of the current SERMs. So it has its uses.

    There is limited clinical data on both Tore and Rolax, but Tore increases lipid values more potently than most other SERMs and increases bone mineral density very well.

    So what are your thoughts Swifto?

    I dont think it matters what SERM(s) you choose for PCT. But go with either Clomid, Tore or Tamox. Using 2 would be a better choice IMHO. The data states Tamoxifen is better than Clomid in a head to head comparison. The data also states Tamoxifen is better than Toremifene and Rolaxifene in head to head comparisons...But take the doses into account.

    The backbone of my PCT is Tore + Tamox 20mg/ED or Clomid 25mg/ED.

    For gyno Rolax should be your first choice. Then Tamox and Tore. Clomid isnt the mose effective at fighting gyno.

    All SERMs seem to increase IGF, imporve lipids and bone mineral density.

    2nd Gen SERMs (Tore, Rolax) are safer than 1st Gen (Clomid, Tamox).

    I hope this has shed more of a light in SERMs, their actions, uses and decide for youself what you use which for...
    nice post swifto, would you advocate keeping clomid at 100/50/50/50 and tamox 20/20/20/20/20/20 rather than the old school 40/20/20/20? cheers

  19. #19
    scotimus's Avatar
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    ^^^^^^^
    yes if we were to run both clomi and tamox like is so often suggested,would this be better

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post
    I dont advocate the use of an AI during PCT. Think about it. Natural testosterone levels are low post cycle and most estrogen production (70-80%) comes from testosterone aromotasing to estrogen. So estrogen is already low. So why lower it more? Answer: You dont.

    You should be using an AI during PCT only if your using HCG. But even then minimal doses should be used and your better using HCG during the cycle, not in PCT.
    Maybe you can help me with this. When I post cycle, if I don't use an AI, I get really depressed. If I use one, I don't. I've always thought it was due to a high amount of estrogen in my body. I do understand that most estrogen is aromatized from testosterone, like you stated but don't understand why this happens, when I use 2 Serms and no AI? Thanks

  21. #21
    Swifto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by declan11 View Post
    nice post swifto, would you advocate keeping clomid at 100/50/50/50 and tamox 20/20/20/20/20/20 rather than the old school 40/20/20/20? cheers
    Yes.

    I think longer durations of Tamox at 20mg/ED would be benificial. Not 40mg/ED. Its a high dose for males and the data doesnt state thats a better dose than 20mg/ED at raising endogenous T.

    I'd go with Tore 120/100/100/60/60 with Tamox 20mg/ED all the way through. Both sensitise the pituitary to GnRH, so more LH will be produced.

    I like Clomid at 25mg/ED too. If I were to use Clomid (which I'm sure I will) I'd go with 50-100mg/ED for the first 5-7 days, followed by 50mg/ED or 25mg/ED for 5-6 weeks.

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    dec11 is offline 'everything louder than everything else'
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post
    Yes.

    I think longer durations of Tamox at 20mg/ED would be benificial. Not 40mg/ED. Its a high dose for males and the data doesnt state thats a better dose than 20mg/ED at raising endogenous T.

    I'd go with Tore 120/100/100/60/60 with Tamox 20mg/ED all the way through. Both sensitise the pituitary to GnRH, so more LH will be produced.

    I like Clomid at 25mg/ED too. If I were to use Clomid (which I'm sure I will) I'd go with 50-100mg/ED for the first 5-7 days, followed by 50mg/ED or 25mg/ED for 5-6 weeks.
    yeah, i'll give tht protocol a blast, hitting pct on fri, although its just clomid and nolva, i'll try :

    clomid 50/50/50/50
    nolva 20/20/20/20/20/20

    and report back.

    whats your views on adding in zma from the start of pct? i usually start it after for a test support. cheers

  23. #23
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    i also will use this more modern protocol after i cycle. which ends in june. ill be waiting to hear back from you declan11

  24. #24
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    nice little gift for the new year. good work.

  25. #25
    corsa5000 is offline Associate Member
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    lower longer doses of tamox for me pct from now on then

  26. #26
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    bump. great post and would like to see if anyone else is running pct like this with any input

  27. #27
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    Thank you

  28. #28
    elfin1mf is offline Associate Member
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    I bookmarked this thread because it is AWESOME. Swifto you are the best man!

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    elfin1mf is offline Associate Member
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    Are you sure that all the information in the original post is backed by the two studies you linked? From what I can see, not all the info came from these 2 articles. Am I just missing something?

  30. #30
    Swifto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elfin1mf View Post
    Are you sure that all the information in the original post is backed by the two studies you linked? From what I can see, not all the info came from these 2 articles. Am I just missing something?
    100mg/ED Clomid raised total T by 268%. Here: http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/...tract/12/4/258

    The majority of the information is backed up. Did you have a questions specifically about one of the claims as I may be able to address is further.

  31. #31
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    nice,thanks

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    thanks a lot man
    i thought rolax is useless before this.....

  33. #33
    PetrX is offline Associate Member
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    So it would be better to use Tamoxifen or Clomid for PCT??

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by PetrX View Post
    So it would be better to use Tamoxifen or Clomid for PCT??
    Good question...

    I think the combination of both is the best IMHO. They both do different but similar things. The combination is tried and tested over years and years.

    From looking at the comparitive study, Tamoxifen is best. But I am yet tp read anything on Tamox that raises endo. T as mush as 268%. I'm not saying its not possible, it probably is, but I havent come across anything.

    I always use Tamoxifen now, then combine it with low dose Clomid (25mg/ED) or Toremifene. My next PCT in the coming weeks will be Tamox/Tore.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post
    Good question...

    I think the combination of both is the best IMHO. They both do different but similar things. The combination is tried and tested over years and years.

    From looking at the comparitive study, Tamoxifen is best. But I am yet tp read anything on Tamox that raises endo. T as mush as 268%. I'm not saying its not possible, it probably is, but I havent come across anything.

    I always use Tamoxifen now, then combine it with low dose Clomid (25mg/ED) or Toremifene. My next PCT in the coming weeks will be Tamox/Tore.
    Awesome very helpful. thank you !!!!!

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    I always wondered about proper use of serms to prevent gyno. It is true that the more estrogen you have in your body, the better you can use the other hormones correct? So a good serm might actually improve gains over an AI on cycle?

    What do you mean about tamox raising endo?

  37. #37
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    Very good information here. I remember seeing a study that concluded that from 5mg to 20mg NOLVA raised test levels by the same amount which proves that the duration rather than the dose is most important. Nolvadex is actually 30mgs of tamoxifen tho so I wouldn't skimp out on the dosage to save money I would still use 20mg but no need for more than this. I too use tamox and clomid and feel it helps restore me quicker than either alone.
    Last edited by Dog-Slime; 03-08-2010 at 08:39 PM.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by elfin1mf View Post
    I always wondered about proper use of serms to prevent gyno. It is true that the more estrogen you have in your body, the better you can use the other hormones correct? So a good serm might actually improve gains over an AI on cycle?

    What do you mean about tamox raising endo?
    Some estrogne is needed for gains, yes. But on cycle it should be kept in normal ranges, not be allowed to get out of range and cause a host of side effects.

    Low dose AI when "on".

  39. #39
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    low dose AI for sure, i like to use exmestane for an Ai while on cycle.

  40. #40
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    most do, but I have seen studies which show that Extreme low dose letro is good as well. after 1 week of use, 20mcg daily will lower 30% etradiol and even higher amounts of estrone (many believe men will benefit to get rid of estrone moreso than estradiol). Of course, for some reason everyone uses much higher doses, likely because they would have to dilute their solutions or weigh out crushed pills on a scale.

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