Maintaing a lot of mass 24/7...

[TheBerryhillMonster]

So once you reach let's say maybe the 250 lbs mark...
To maintain all the muscle do you have to stay on cycle constantly but change the compounds up along with cruising and blasting?

[powerliftmike]

Yes you will have to be on some testosterone at all times. Especially when you consider the natural aging process (declining testosterone levels ) and lower than normal age-adjusted levels because of past AAS use.

[Big]

depends on your genetic potential, as well as diet. it's hard to use weight as a benchmark without height. if someone was 6'5" maintaining 250lbs wouldn't take a lot.

[TheBerryhillMonster]

Saying you are muscular at lets say 5'10 250 lbs, when do you know that you are ready to be on cycle...forever.

[powerliftmike]

Saying you are muscular at lets say 5'10 250 lbs, when do you know that you are ready to be on cycle...forever.

are you 5'10" 250 lb at a low bf right now? You will know when its time, but lets not forget crusing and blasting or just a 250mg/wk test e/cyp coast is different than what most people consider a "cycle".

Alot of the older and bigger guys just will run test and gh and not fool with much else. Most people "outgrow" orals at some point as well.

[TheBerryhillMonster]

I am not 5'10 250 lbs no, I just felt that would be a point of no return judging from pics and reading a little bit. What do you mean 250mg/wk coast is different than what most people consider a cycle?

[powerliftmike]

What do you mean 250mg/wk coast is different than what most people consider a cycle?

Most people consider a cycle something high dose and lasting 8-12 wks. If you stay on something forever you arent cycling by its very definition either. I was just trying say cycling is different from cruising/coasting/HRT/TRT whatever you want to call it..

[TheBerryhillMonster]

Right, I understand the replacement therapy doses, but what would someone tryting to compete at a pro level "cruise" on? I am just asking for a ball park estimate, I am not wanting to get flamed.

[Immortal Soldier]

Right, I understand the replacement therapy doses, but what would someone tryting to compete at a pro level "cruise" on? I am just asking for a ball park estimate, I am not wanting to get flamed.

Those at the pro level probably don't cruise (ie. extended peroids of just low test dosage) because they constantly have to be improving their body then getting ready for shows, etc. Unlike the average lifter who's life doesn't revolve around bodybuilding, the pros probably stay on year round in a certain format (bulking then pre-contest cutting cycles) in order to achieve their goals. Any amount spent cruising is probably really short and just a bridge to their next cycle.

It all depends on what you consider "pro", I consider pro level Mr. Olympia, Arnold, etc. As well as having your pro card.

[TheBerryhillMonster]

That is what I consider Pro also,
Thank you for clearing this up for me.

[ranging1]

im curious about this to

just what do you guys consider to be a perosns maximum genetic potential?

obviously 250pounds at 9%bf for a guy at 5'10 isnt maintainable naturaly

but lets think less extreme and consider what we think is the borderline of naturaly maintainable after a cycle

ill use myself as example

currently 5'10, bf% est 12, check my log on this forum and be the judge of my bf% est
weight: 225pounds

in my second cycle

main lifts list: deadllift 250kg 4 reps, bench press 170kg 1 rep, squat 220kg 5 reps, dumbell shoulder press 55kg each arm 3 reps, lat pull down 143kg 4 reps, i think thats enough to list

would you guys consider that to be beyond maintainable for the AVERAGE bodybuilder off gear? if so why? if not how much further do u think is naturaly maintainable without needing to use gear again

obviosuly everyone differs but im asking yous to judge based on the average persons genetics, assuming their training and diet are in check

[terraj]

im curious about this to

just what do you guys consider to be a perosns maximum genetic potential?

obviously 250pounds at 9%bf for a guy at 5'10 isnt maintainable naturaly

but lets think less extreme and consider what we think is the borderline of naturaly maintainable after a cycle

ill use myself as example

currently 5'10, bf% est 12, check my log on this forum and be the judge of my bf% est
weight: 225pounds

in my second cycle

main lifts list: deadllift 250kg 4 reps, bench press 170kg 1 rep, squat 220kg 5 reps, dumbell shoulder press 55kg each arm 3 reps, lat pull down 143kg 4 reps, i think thats enough to list

would you guys consider that to be beyond maintainable for the AVERAGE bodybuilder off gear? if so why? if not how much further do u think is naturaly maintainable without needing to use gear again

obviosuly everyone differs but im asking yous to judge based on the average persons genetics, assuming their training and diet are in check

You may not maintain the lifts, but those lift are not needed to maintain the muscle.

[fizler]

Those at the pro level probably don't cruise (ie. extended peroids of just low test dosage) because they constantly have to be improving their body then getting ready for shows, etc. Unlike the average lifter who's life doesn't revolve around bodybuilding, the pros probably stay on year round in a certain format (bulking then pre-contest cutting cycles) in order to achieve their goals. Any amount spent cruising is probably really short and just a bridge to their next cycle.

It all depends on what you consider "pro", I consider pro level Mr. Olympia, Arnold, etc. As well as having your pro card.

This ^

Also if you thinking about going on for life think about having blood work done, at least every 6 months, getting a script for some test so you can offset your cost, get a doc you can talk about steroids with.. its not as easy as just pinning yourself weekly if your going to do it right.

The guys I know in the weight range you mention are running more than 500mg/ test-c or e every week. Pros I know are running 1g a week maintenance.

[chuckt12345]

im curious about this to

just what do you guys consider to be a perosns maximum genetic potential?

obviously 250pounds at 9%bf for a guy at 5'10 isnt maintainable naturaly

but lets think less extreme and consider what we think is the borderline of naturaly maintainable after a cycle

ill use myself as example

currently 5'10, bf% est 12, check my log on this forum and be the judge of my bf% est
weight: 225pounds

in my second cycle

main lifts list: deadllift 250kg 4 reps, bench press 170kg 1 rep, squat 220kg 5 reps, dumbell shoulder press 55kg each arm 3 reps, lat pull down 143kg 4 reps, i think thats enough to list

would you guys consider that to be beyond maintainable for the AVERAGE bodybuilder off gear? if so why? if not how much further do u think is naturaly maintainable without needing to use gear again

obviosuly everyone differs but im asking yous to judge based on the average persons genetics, assuming their training and diet are in check

Are you 225lb at your heaviest point during cycle? Then theres no way your gonna maintain that weight off the gear unless you change your diet/training. Unless of course your young and your metabolism is still slowing down. Im thinkin you in or close to your 30's though

[powerliftmike]

Those at the pro level probably don't cruise (ie. extended peroids of just low test dosage) because they constantly have to be improving their body then getting ready for shows, etc.

He was asking about maintaining muscle, thats why i was talking about the cruise. Pros will have a base test and gh all year, and then cycle in "blast" periods of different AAS as talked about earlier

[Immortal Soldier]

He was asking about maintaining muscle, thats why i was talking about the cruise. Pros will have a base test and gh all year, and then cycle in "blast" periods of different AAS as talked about earlier

Yes I know I was agreeing with you, I was just saying that pros do not maintain muscle the same way me and you would maintain muscle. And honestly with the number of shows these guys compete in (not saying its alot but there scattered throughout the year) I find it hard pressed to think they would just cruise on just test and gh for any amount of time especially those that are obbessed with getting better.

Like I said each pro is different, there could be a pro who does cruise and blast and does relatively lower dosages than his competitors, but then there could be another who is balls to walls. It's impossible to tell really the "standard" synthetic hormone methods that all pros use since they are always looking to one up the other and find the Holy Grail of AAS, GH, and IGF usage.

[powerliftmike]

yes every pro will have a different methodology. Ive heard rumors of guys like Pudzianowski (5 time WSM) staying on 7g of test a week. yea 7g.

[MotoLifter]

yes every pro will have a different methodology. Ive heard rumors of guys like Pudzianowski (5 time WSM) staying on 7g of test a week. yea 7g.

holy sh*t!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that is insane!!

im 6'2 1/2" bout 225-230 bout 12% BF and still gaining lean mass off cycle. but at a prety slow rate. wonder when im gonna hit the wall.


Moto

[Immortal Soldier]

yes every pro will have a different methodology. Ive heard rumors of guys like Pudzianowski (5 time WSM) staying on 7g of test a week. yea 7g.

I heard Ronnie did at least 3grams a week, wouldn't surprise me if someone out there went crazy. Alot of European bodybuilders have died from VERY HIGH HGH use which lead to organ failure.

[Vitruvian-Man]

I heard Ronnie did at least 3grams a week, wouldn't surprise me if someone out there went crazy. Alot of European bodybuilders have died from VERY HIGH HGH use which lead to organ failure.

Well this seems obvious to me. And we were discussing something very similar in a thread yesterday (maintaining gains post cycle.)

Me and Chuck were arguing that post cycle almost 75 - 90% of WEIGHT gains made will be lost within 3 months of discontinuing PCT. (as one's body naturally returns to homeostasis / natural test levels.)

Another thing to note: Pro's not only stay on Test/ other compounds exclusively (and not in cruising dosages as previously stated - but rather "mega-doses" by most people's opinions....) but they also cruise on like 20iu (or more!) of GH per day. Not to mention a whole wack-load of other peptides.

It's not like 20iu's of GH just make your feet grow.... Dosages that high can transform your body to something else.

Just my 0.02.. but yah, cool convo boys

[Bossman]

All you ever hear about "pro" cycles and dosages are rumors. There's good reason, they don't want anyone to know. In this thread I've read some cruise on "1 gram" of test per week, one well known powerlifter "7 grams" of test per week and GH cruising of "20iu Ed".

The only people that really know are the pro's and their trainers. Someone go hire a pro trainer and share the info with us.

[ranging1]

You may not maintain the lifts, but those lift are not needed to maintain the muscle.

hmm yea that i dont mind, wasnt expecting to

Are you 225lb at your heaviest point during cycle? Then theres no way your gonna maintain that weight off the gear unless you change your diet/training. Unless of course your young and your metabolism is still slowing down. Im thinkin you in or close to your 30's though

no ive still got 8 weeks left of my cycle, but dammit i didnt wanna here i wont be able to maintain it , but im only 19 years old so will that help allow me to maintain it?

holy sh*t!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that is insane!!

im 6'2 1/2" bout 225-230 bout 12% BF and still gaining lean mass off cycle. but at a prety slow rate. wonder when im gonna hit the wall.

Moto

lol dw about walls, thats what gear for hehehe

All you ever hear about "pro" cycles and dosages are rumors. There's good reason, they don't want anyone to know. In this thread I've read some cruise on "1 gram" of test per week, one well known powerlifter "7 grams" of test per week and GH cruising of "20iu Ed".

The only people that really know are the pro's and their trainers. Someone go hire a pro trainer and share the info with us.

to bad we dont have any pro trainers in aus, we dont even have bodybuilding competions for steroid users lol

everythings natural dammit

[fizler]

to bad we dont have any pro trainers in aus, we dont even have bodybuilding competions for steroid users lol

everythings natural dammit

I would be willing to guess that most card holding pros run multi grams a week when not on a cycle or something. However that being said most are usually on some type of mass cycle with many many grams of test alone and plenty of other compounds. I've also heard of pros using 20Ius a day but I can't imagine the bill!

[Bossman]

to bad we dont have any pro trainers in aus, we dont even have bodybuilding competions for steroid users lol

everythings natural dammit

Don't you have the Australian Pro?

http://www.australia-bodybuilding.co...liaproshow.htm

These aren't natural guys.

[Bossman]

to bad we dont have any pro trainers in aus, we dont even have bodybuilding competions for steroid users lol

everythings natural dammit

Don't you have the Australian Pro?

http://www.australia-bodybuilding.co...liaproshow.htm

These aren't natural guys.

[dec11]

yes every pro will have a different methodology. Ive heard rumors of guys like Pudzianowski (5 time WSM) staying on 7g of test a week. yea 7g.

fookin hell!!!! and id been dreaming of competing strongman, ah well back to plifting it is lol

[Kdub]

All you ever hear about "pro" cycles and dosages are rumors. There's good reason, they don't want anyone to know. In this thread I've read some cruise on "1 gram" of test per week, one well known powerlifter "7 grams" of test per week and GH cruising of "20iu Ed".

The only people that really know are the pro's and their trainers. Someone go hire a pro trainer and share the info with us.

I trained with pros down under back in 96'. Back then, top guys like Matarazzo and Dillet were using 2,000+ mgs per day.

IGF-1 just came out when I was there and one guy in Melbourne, gained 50 lbs of muscle in 30 days and wound up in the hospital with a heart attack. His bodybuilding days were over. During that month, two of his teeth fell out when brushing and he grew a gap between his teeth like Arnold. This guy started the IGF-1 at a lean weight of 120 kg and wound up close to 145 kgs.

My time there altered my thinking of becoming a pro even though my body accepted "high" levels of test extremely well.

[ranging1]

Don't you have the Australian Pro?

http://www.australia-bodybuilding.co...liaproshow.htm

These aren't natural guys.

u sure their not natural????

haha jokes, thanks man didnt actually realise we had this, but im guessing i never heard of it coz this competion is 3000miles from my city in austrlia lol

i think thats our only comp then......

[Immortal Soldier]

I trained with pros down under back in 96'. Back then, top guys like Matarazzo and Dillet were using 2,000+ mgs per day.

IGF-1 just came out when I was there and one guy in Melbourne, gained 50 lbs of muscle in 30 days and wound up in the hospital with a heart attack. His bodybuilding days were over. During that month, two of his teeth fell out when brushing and he grew a gap between his teeth like Arnold. This guy started the IGF-1 at a lean weight of 120 kg and wound up close to 145 kgs.

My time there altered my thinking of becoming a pro even though my body accepted "high" levels of test extremely well.

Is IGF-1 even legit?

I been hearing some many conflicting opinions about it about how its useless or not worth it. Like IGF-LRG or whatever its called has been called junk by some vets on this board.

[powerliftmike]

Is IGF-1 even legit?

I been hearing some many conflicting opinions about it about how its useless or not worth it. Like IGF-LRG or whatever its called has been called junk by some vets on this board.

IGF-1 is very big factor in growth, but the IGF we can take-- LR3-igf-1-- is junk. You will get some leaning, thats about all. It had high hopes as did SARMs S4 when they both came into the spotlight but overall both have been dismal failures.

The best recipe for growth and utilizing endogenous production of IGF-1, is testesterone/GH/slin stack. We just cant take IGF directly for a whole host of reasons, mainly its extremely short half-life

[*Thiago*]

Ok so this leads to a noob question,

So in short are you guys saying that the body will go back to what it can naturally sustain, which I guess in short could be you natural plateau ... is this true ?



Ex lifter trains for 5-6 years and reaches 200lb at 6ft 9% BF

Cycles a few times gets to 235, off cycles hovers 220

If he DOES NOT cycle again he will eventually drop back down to 200lb ????



If this is true then NO muscle gained on gear is actually kept, I find that hard to believe ... in theory shouldn't the lifter be able to maintain lets say 215lb naturally by diet as the muscle tissue is already stretched/created ???

[ranging1]

yes thats what were sayign u will eventually return to ur natural level

just think of it this way, if you couldnt gain it naturally?, how can u maintain it naturally?

if it required u a large amount of steroids ot gain the mass, then how can you keep the mass when your supporting it when onyl a natural amount of testrone which is significantly lower

[*Thiago*]

What about Barry Bonds ??

Is he going back to his Pirate days lmao -

[Bossman]

Ok so this leads to a noob question,

So in short are you guys saying that the body will go back to what it can naturally sustain, which I guess in short could be you natural plateau ... is this true ?



Ex lifter trains for 5-6 years and reaches 200lb at 6ft 9% BF

Cycles a few times gets to 235, off cycles hovers 220

If he DOES NOT cycle again he will eventually drop back down to 200lb ????



If this is true then NO muscle gained on gear is actually kept, I find that hard to believe ... in theory shouldn't the lifter be able to maintain lets say 215lb naturally by diet as the muscle tissue is already stretched/created ???

If you're around the gym enough and know the guys that use gear, you would see this quite often. You can't keep supernatural levels of muscle without gear.

[Hazard]

I've gone over 225lbs a bunch of times while on cycle..... If I run my pct..... then take 3 months off...... i'll be back to around 225lbs again.

I'm on HGH now tho.... hoping to push 250 with this cycle and stay on HGH while recovering.....

~Haz~

[Hazard]

Regarding pro dosages..... take this for what it's worth.....

I asked a pro if a dosage of 4grams of test a week is in the ball park of what one might take...... he asked me if I wanted to have a heart attack. He said it's way too much and it's more like half that.....

I asked another pro the same question..... he said he knows guys that have gone to 3 grams a week and knows of one guy who ran 5 grams a week but he looked terrible. He said 5 grams a week is WAAAYYYYY too much.

Will we ever truely know......? Nope.....

~Haz~

[chuckt12345]

Ok so this leads to a noob question,

So in short are you guys saying that the body will go back to what it can naturally sustain, which I guess in short could be you natural plateau ... is this true ?



Ex lifter trains for 5-6 years and reaches 200lb at 6ft 9% BF

Cycles a few times gets to 235, off cycles hovers 220

If he DOES NOT cycle again he will eventually drop back down to 200lb ????



If this is true then NO muscle gained on gear is actually kept, I find that hard to believe ... in theory shouldn't the lifter be able to maintain lets say 215lb naturally by diet as the muscle tissue is already stretched/created ???

Depends on diet,, yea if you raise your caloric intake and keep it liek that you will maintain some weight

[dec11]

Depends on diet,, yea if you raise your caloric intake and keep it liek that you will maintain some weight

cant believe no one else pointed this out

[Immortal Soldier]

IGF-1 is very big factor in growth, but the IGF we can take-- LR3-igf-1-- is junk. You will get some leaning, thats about all. It had high hopes as did SARMs S4 when they both came into the spotlight but overall both have been dismal failures.

The best recipe for growth and utilizing endogenous production of IGF-1, is testesterone/GH/slin stack. We just cant take IGF directly for a whole host of reasons, mainly its extremely short half-life

The whole "increased" chance of cancer and tumor growth turns me WAY off from IGF.

Fvck that shit, if I am gonna kill myself its gonna be from steroids clogging my heart

[Hazard]

cant believe no one else pointed this out

obviously caloric intake plays a huge role..... but there is a point to where you just can't eat anymore. 4000 calories may not be "insane" for some people but I gotta force food down my gullet to go over that.

~Haz~