dbol question

[mulisa268]

So my trainer mentioned to me today that he wants me to start dbol next Monday and hes aware that I started 500mg of Test E a week 3 weeks ago... Hes content that it wont effect me in any way for the worst, but im worried about it being a late start. Would adding dbol into my cycle 3 weeks in kill me, or should I wait until my next cycle?

[TITANIUM]

So my trainer mentioned to me today that he wants me to start dbol next Monday and hes aware that I started 500mg of Test E a week 3 weeks ago... Hes content that it wont effect me in any way for the worst, but im worried about it being a late start. Would adding dbol into my cycle 3 weeks in kill me, or should I wait until my next cycle?

I ran it mid cycle, more towards the end once.

Works fine for that run.

4 wks max.

Best

T

[jordann]

Agreed with Titanium.

You'll really start to see and feel the effects of the E about 4 weeks in, so throwing in some dbol at 20-30mg ED will have you blow up with your strength through the roof.

[mulisa268]

perfect! thank you... Recommended dosage?

6 ft tall
193lbs
20% bf
and taking 500mg a week of test E split 250mon 250thurs as mentioned before

awesome! thanks for the advice Jordann & Titanium... much appreciated!

[jordann]

Not to bust your balls but you should cut down your BF% to around 12%. It's much harder for individuals with higher bodyfat percentages to make solid gains while on test.

But, to answer your question: 20-30mg ED spaced 3-4 hours apart.

[mulisa268]

ok, i had read that earlier, but my trainer had suggested the cycle for me said for this cycle, i may not see too much of the gains, but mentioned it will help cut body fat faster? opinion?

also, ive been reading about dbol, but im still trying to learn the sides from dbol... I know the sides are worse than a straight test cycle, but a little clarity would be awesome also

[jordann]

Basically with a higher body fat percentage the sides will be a little more pronounced. You'll will notice some fat loss with test, as protein synthesis will be remarkably higher. Make sure you're taking in enough protein. Since you're working with a trainer I imagine he/she has you on a good diet, training regimen, etc.

Dbol has a high affinity to bind to the estrogen receptor. It's very potent and very effective. I find doses under 40mg will give you good strength and size but limit side effects. That's not to say you won't experience them, because you most likely will. Most people experience acne, hair growth, testicular atrophy, etc.

Do you have any nolva on hand incase of gyno? What does your PCT look like?

[jordann]

Basically with a higher body fat percentage the sides will be a little more pronounced. You'll will notice some fat loss with test, as protein synthesis will be remarkably higher. Make sure you're taking in enough protein. Since you're working with a trainer I imagine he/she has you on a good diet, training regimen, etc.

Dbol has a high affinity to bind to the estrogen receptor. It's very potent and very effective. I find doses under 40mg will give you good strength and size but limit side effects. That's not to say you won't experience them, because you most likely will. Most people experience acne, hair growth, testicular atrophy, etc.

Do you have any nolva on hand incase of gyno? What does your PCT look like?

[mulisa268]

My diet is in check, been lacking right now, but Hes arranged me with a diet hes done for years for his bodybuilding shows... I have it on paper, and atm Im really lazy to type it out... BUT, it consists of a lot of protein, 6 meals a day... Chicken, tuna with mustard, fish, almonds, greens, protein shakes and porage on the occasional day, and half a bagel to provide me with carbs...

As for my PCT, I have clomid which I was gonna use for just my Test E cycle, but now with dbol coming into effect, I may have to alter this a tad... as for nolva, when I get my dbol next monday, he will have the nolva also for me. But for PCT, how am I going to have to adjust it? should I use both clomid and nolvadex over a period of time? or sub something else/

Also, my trainer has not gone over my pCT doses yet, but we were going to go over it when the time came. What are some recommendations?

EDIT: also, just to add, for my workout routine, I dont know if You guys have ever come across Fizogen? well he has me following their Get Blitzed routine, but with some of his variations for some weekly muscle confusion

[jordann]

Keep the nolva on hand incase you experience some estro sides like sore nipples. To be honest you should be fine.

This is kind of a long read but it's definitely worth it.

Clomid, Nolvadex and testosterone Stimulation
By William Llewellyn


Editors Note: I am extremely pleased to have Bill Llewellyn contributing an article for us this week. For those who are unaware, he is the author of Anabolics 2000 and Anabolics 2002 and is one of the bodybuilding world's foremost experts on androgens and anabolics. He is also the President of Molecular Nutrition, one of the most ********** companies in this business. Along with Avant Labs and ErgoPharm, Molecular Nutrition is one of the few companies dedicated to putting forth only those products backed by legitimate research, rather than excessive hype and other such B.S. Two products, in particular, that deserve to be more well-known are Viritase, a potent anti-estrogen, and Boldione, a boldenone precursor. To find out more about these, and the rest of their products, I reccomend that you head over to their website -- but only after you have finsished reading big Mf'r and spent all of your money on our products, of course


Now, on to the article:




Introduction


I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone-stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.





Clomid and Nolvadex


I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). lh - leutenizing hormone - output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.

Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.


Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH


But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary lh - leutenizing hormone - in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more lh - leutenizing hormone - will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more lh - leutenizing hormone - was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and lh - leutenizing hormone - levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.



The Estrogen Clomid


The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [sex hormone binding globulin ] levels; this increase was not observed after Tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," …a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".

Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of lh - leutenizing hormone - from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on lh - leutenizing hormone - response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.



Conclusion


To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - , and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of lh - leutenizing hormone - stimulation.

Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in sex hormone binding globulin levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gynecomastia and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.

In next month's follow-up article I will be discussing the role anti-estrogens play in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Most specifically, I will be detailing what a proper post-cycle ancillary drug program looks like, and explain why anti-estrogens alone are not effective during this window of time.


References:

1. Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, Tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (1978) 320-7

2. Disparate effect of Clomiphene and Tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro. Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS. Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30

3. The effect of Clomiphene citrate on sex hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men. Adamopoulos, Kapolla et al. Int J Androl 4 (1981) 639-45

[mulisa268]

thanks for that! I have read the profiles provided for both clomid and Nolvadex, and see how nolvadex is the more recommended PCT... But if thats the case, why do people still see Chlomid as the Superior? I guess Im still a little cloudy on their benefits and disadvantages as well as which can be the better and with what dosages