AI through whole cycle?

**steelydave11** · 02-26-2010, 04:33 PM

Can someone tell me the ups and downs of using Nolva and arimidex the whole way through a cycle. Some poeple say do it, others say dont. What can happen running these two the whole way through?

**daem** · 02-26-2010, 04:37 PM

Don't use Nolvadex throughout cycle.

You can use arimidex throughout to prevent any estrogen related side effects.

The problem with eliminating estrogen completely is that it is needed to grow...Some guys think that by eliminating it, they are limiting their effectiveness on cycle.

I generally stay away from AI or SERMs now that I don't experience any negative side effects after having gyno surgery and removing the glands.

Keep them on hand in case you need them but no need to run them if you don't have bad side effects.

**PK-V** · 02-26-2010, 04:46 PM

drop the nolva when on

use the nolva if you cant fight gyno with the AI

also

aromasin >arimidex

**steelydave11** · 02-26-2010, 04:52 PM

ok just to clarify, if Im running a cycle over 14 weeks comprised of Test e, Deca and Dbol , the only thing I should take every day while on the cycle is arimidex ? Nothing else for estrogen? Im guessing .25mg ed? Is it a definite that Nolva should be used when the cycle ends or is that up to me?

**Chimera44** · 02-26-2010, 04:56 PM

If youre prone to gyno then use an AI. I would suggest arimidex at .5-1 mg per day because it limits your estrogen to about 50-70% of what it would be (estemated because I dont have the actual info infront of me right now to double check lol, but its around there). This leaves enough estrogen to still get your dick up and repair your tendons and ligements. I wouldnt do it unless you know you need it though. Ya nolva is best for PCT with other drugs. Dosages range between 10mg and 40mg ed, 20 is usualy the magic dose for most guys though.

**steelydave11** · 02-26-2010, 04:58 PM

What worries me is when I hear that the gyno effects in some men can only be reversed surgically. If I do it your way, and wait to see gyno symptoms, am I not risking needing that surgery?

**Chimera44** · 02-26-2010, 05:15 PM

Valid point, usually it starts with a little bit of tenderness in the nipples and then the lump starts to grow, so its not like you will sprout c-cups over night lol. But if you feel tenderness comming on then stop your cycle and hit it hard with 40 mg ed nolva untill side effects subside. Actually I always use low dose AI's on cycle to prevent any estrogen sides so idk why I told you to wait lol.

Anyways, gyno can be fixed without surgery though. Lots of guys do it with letrozole and nolva. They start with .5 mg letro at first and ramp up to 2.5 mg ed (+.5 mg ed). Some stop at lower doseage if thats all the need but either way, they take the letro until 4-7 days after the last traces of the lump is gone and then taper it down and then jump on 20-30mg of nolva to fight the estrogen rebound until estrogen levels return to normal (usually 4 weeks or so). Letro is SUPER powerful shit and at 2.5 mg/day (or sometimes less) it lowers your estrogen 99-100%. Consiquently taking this rout will also kill your sex drive for about 6 weeks or however long the whole process takes, but its way way cheaper than surgery.

**steelydave11** · 02-26-2010, 06:08 PM

Ok, so what you're saying is not to take the Nolva or Letro unless I see gyno symptoms. You're saying that an AI like Arimidex or Liquidex should be taken every day while on cycle? If I do that, do I also take the AI during PCT? Or just the Nolva during PCT?

**Chimera44** · 02-26-2010, 06:38 PM

Nolva is better for PCT and arimidex is better for on cycle. PCT usualy includes nolva and clomid and sometimes HCG (but IMO should always have HCG but thats beside the point). If you do happen to get gyno then you can do what I suggested above with the letro and nolva.

**steelydave11** · 02-26-2010, 06:49 PM

today, a lot of people say HCG should only be used ON cycle. It doesnt seem that theres one opinion that makes more sense than another. Nobody really seems to know the answer. I'll do it your way though initially. Thanks.

**hoagie** · 02-26-2010, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by Chimera44

Anyways, gyno can be fixed without surgery though....

Not true at all....

I cycled heavily for about 3yrs till I developed a small lump under right nip... about a year later, a small (about the size of a bb) lump on the other side....

After another couple of years of cycling, they progressively got bigger and bigger while on.... (they would just about fully dissappear while off). Hurt like a bitch too (only while on though).

But now (about 8 or so years later) it never goes away completely... even when I've been off for over a year. They aren't tender or hurt like while on... but they are definetly still there... with a noticable amount of extra fat around the outside nip area up toward armpit.

Unfortunately I cannot afford surgery or I would get it in a heartbeat... because once I get my bf % down low it gets to be very noticable.

In begining stages yes... you may be able to reduce it to almost nothing... but once it starts, there's no getting rid of it w/ out surgery... and it's sure to keep growing as you continue cycling.

**Chimera44** · 02-26-2010, 08:52 PM

Np, HCG can be used both on and off. HCG only stimulates natural test production, so some guys like to try to keep their natural levels up while on cycle while others just bring it back in the post. It can work either way, you just need to decide whats right for you.

**Chimera44** · 02-26-2010, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by hoagie

Not true at all....

I cycled heavily for about 3yrs till I developed a small lump under right nip... about a year later, a small (about the size of a bb) lump on the other side....

After another couple of years of cycling, they progressively got bigger and bigger while on.... (they would just about fully dissappear while off). Hurt like a bitch too (only while on though).

But now (about 8 or so years later) it never goes away completely... even when I've been off for over a year. They aren't tender or hurt like while on... but they are definetly still there... with a noticable amount of extra fat around the outside nip area up toward armpit.

Unfortunately I cannot afford surgery or I would get it in a heartbeat... because once I get my bf % down low it gets to be very noticable.

In begining stages yes... you may be able to reduce it to almost nothing... but once it starts, there's no getting rid of it w/ out surgery... and it's sure to keep growing as you continue cycling.

Yes it can, guys have been doing it for years now, and science even proved it in a study with mice. It wont just go away on its own, you have to use powerful AI's to totaly eliminate estrogen for a while for it to go away.

**Ashop** · 02-26-2010, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by steelydave11

Can someone tell me the ups and downs of using Nolva and arimidex the whole way through a cycle. Some poeple say do it, others say dont. What can happen running these two the whole way through?

I woulsd use an Ai like ARIMIDEX during your cycle and NOLVA for PCT.
AI's will preven estrogen from ever having a chance to give you the typical side effects such as gyno.

**hoagie** · 02-26-2010, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by Chimera44

Yes it can, guys have been doing it for years now, and science even proved it in a study with mice. It wont just go away on its own, you have to use powerful AI's to totaly eliminate estrogen for a while for it to go away.

Bud... believe me i've tried. I've been doin this fun stuff since I was 23.... I'm 35 now.

I don't care what studies on mice say... I've had more studies than I can count on myself. I took an entire year off + anastrozole.... still there.

No matter how low estrogen you go... the glandular tissue that has developed will never go away. The swelling and pain will... but tissue does not just dissapear.

**On edit....

I wish arimidex or letro was available when i 1st started... all i had was nolva and clomid around. My 1st year or 2 of cycling didn't give me any sign of gyno.... it was only until I experimented w/ very large doses that I got the 1st little "bb's" beneath the nips.

**Chimera44** · 02-27-2010, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by hoagie

Bud... believe me i've tried. I've been doin this fun stuff since I was 23.... I'm 35 now.

I don't care what studies on mice say... I've had more studies than I can count on myself. I took an entire year off + anastrozole.... still there.

No matter how low estrogen you go... the glandular tissue that has developed will never go away. The swelling and pain will... but tissue does not just dissapear.

**On edit....

I wish arimidex or letro was available when i 1st started... all i had was nolva and clomid around. My 1st year or 2 of cycling didn't give me any sign of gyno.... it was only until I experimented w/ very large doses that I got the 1st little "bb's" beneath the nips.

Im really sry to hear that man, that sucks. I took care of mine without surgery, and Iv read tons of posts that say they have taken care of theirs the same way. Maybe there are other factors you might be over looking that makes you not as responsive.

**AlphaGenetics** · 02-27-2010, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by daem

Don't use Nolvadex throughout cycle.

You can use arimidex throughout to prevent any estrogen related side effects.

The problem with eliminating estrogen completely is that it is needed to grow...Some guys think that by eliminating it, they are limiting their effectiveness on cycle.

I generally stay away from AI or SERMs now that I don't experience any negative side effects after having gyno surgery and removing the glands.

Keep them on hand in case you need them but no need to run them if you don't have bad side effects.

Your lucky. I had glands removed and gyno symptoms just came back after 6 weeks into a prop cycle.

**AlphaGenetics** · 02-27-2010, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by hoagie

Bud... believe me i've tried. I've been doin this fun stuff since I was 23.... I'm 35 now.

I don't care what studies on mice say... I've had more studies than I can count on myself. I took an entire year off + anastrozole.... still there.

No matter how low estrogen you go... the glandular tissue that has developed will never go away. The swelling and pain will... but tissue does not just dissapear.

**On edit....

I wish arimidex or letro was available when i 1st started... all i had was nolva and clomid around. My 1st year or 2 of cycling didn't give me any sign of gyno.... it was only until I experimented w/ very large doses that I got the 1st little "bb's" beneath the nips.

Agreed

**hankdiesel** · 02-27-2010, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by steelydave11

ok just to clarify, if Im running a cycle over 14 weeks comprised of Test e, Deca and Dbol, the only thing I should take every day while on the cycle is arimidex? Nothing else for estrogen? Im guessing .25mg ed? Is it a definite that Nolva should be used when the cycle ends or is that up to me?

.5mg eod works wonders for me

**biggerguns** · 02-27-2010, 05:04 PM

Im taking nolva 5mg ED along with testE cycle. Im only gaining at the rate of a pound a week but its clean weight and i dont get bloated, gyno symptoms, or bad side effects. Just very little shoulder acne. Maybe its hindering my gains but i'd rather be safe than sorry. Besides my slingshot cycle is 27 weeks, Hopefully 27pds in the end with this HGgrade test.