Study: Using HCG for a PCT with human guinea pigs

[Hard.On]

HPGA Normalization Protocol After Androgen Treatment

N Vergel, AL Hodge, MC Scally
Program for Wellness Restoration

Methods
An uncontrolled study of 19 HIV-negative eugonadal
men, ages 23 – 57 years, administered testosterone
cypionate and nandrolone decanoate for 12 weeks,
and then were treated simultaneously with a combined
regimen of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG ) (250
IU/QODx16d), clomiphene citrate (50 mg PO BID x 30d)
and tamoxifen (20 mg PO QD x 45d), to restore the
HPGA.

Results
Mean FFM by DEXA increased from 64.1 to 69.8 kg
(p<.001); percent body fat decreased from 23.6 to 20.9
(p<.01); strength increased significantly from 357.4 lb
to 406.4 lb (p=.02). No significant changes in serum
chemistries and liver function tests were found. HDL-C
decreased from a mean value of 44.3 to 38.0 (p=.02).
Mean values for luteinizing hormone (LH) and total
testosterone (T) were 4.5 and 460, respectively prior
to androgen treatment. At the conclusion of the 12-
week treatment with androgens the mean LH <0.7
(p<.001) and total testosterone was 1568 (p<.001). The
mean values after treatment with the combined
regimen were LH=6.2 and testosterone=458.

Discussion
The use of androgens has been reported to improve
lean body mass, strength, sexual function, and mood
accompanied by side effects caused by continuous
uninterrupted use of these compounds (polycythemia,
testicular atrophy, hypertension, liver dysfunction
[oral androgens] and alopecia.) Androgen-induced
HPGA suppression causes a severe hypogonadal state in
most patients that often require an extensive period of
considerable duration for normalization. This prevents
most if not all individuals from cycling off these
medications due to the adverse impact of this state on
their previously gained LBM and quality of life. The
protocol of hCG-clomiphene-tamoxifen was successful
in restoring the HPGA within 45 days after androgen
cessation. Further controlled studies are needed to
determine if these results can be duplicated in HIVpositive
subjects.[/CENTER]



I just thought some might find this interesting.
Its just a study that I found while researching.

I know lots of BB that tell me to use HCG for PCT (with nolv/clom) and it has done wonders for them. However due to everyone reading swifto's thread. When ever you talk about it in this forum everyone quickly jumps in and says nonono, only during cycle. I dont think that for a 12-16 week cycle HCG is needed during cycle, it would be better to use during PCT.

I believe that doing the best possible PCT is more important then the cycle itself. It is a proper PCT that makes a cycle worth it!


This is only for those doing cycles upto 16 weeks IMO


I am 6 weeks into test prop/Dbol Cycle

I am going to run this for a PCT.


Unless someone can provide me with an actual study with subjects proving me wrong.

[FranciscoG]

There are a few studies that look at hCG usage in the same light.

[FranciscoG]

Private message from a member:

Examination revealed a muscular and fitlooking
man with mild and tender gynaecomastia,
very scant body hair, and reduced testicular
size. Endocrine investigations revealed
severe hypogonadism, with a serum testosterone
of 0.8 nmol/l (normal range 10.0-30.0),
and serum FSH and LH both undetectable.
Prolactin level, and magnetic resonance imaging
of the pituitary and hypothalamus were
normal. Dynamic pituitary function testing
with glucagon, thyrotropin-releasing hormone
(TRH) and LH-releasing hormone showed
normal responses of cortisol, growth hormone
(GH), thyrotropin (TSH), and FSH/LH. A
diagnosis of severe hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism
due to anabolic steroid abuse was
made.
He initially refused to give up anabolic steroids
and was therefore offered Sustanon treatment
with a contract that he in return would
stop other steroids . It was hoped that this might
at least act as a 'damage limitation' strategy
short-term. Sustanon 250 mg intramuscularly
(im) was given every two weeks, and serum
testosterone levels rose into the normal range
(see figure). His libido, potency and hair
growth returned to normal. His cessation of
anabolic steroid misuse was supported by urine
screening tests. After 15 months on Sustanon,
he had given up body-building and was in fulltime
education. He voluntarily stopped treatment,
but serum testosterone fell from 14.0 to
8.5 nmol/l (see figure) and impotence rapidly
returned. To stimulate testicular function he
was given injections of HCG over the next
three months (10 000 units im weekly for one
month, 5000 units weekly for one month, and
2500 units for one month). Within a week of
starting treatment, libido had greatly improved,
and spontaneous nocturnal ejaculations
occurred. Serum testosterone levels and
potency returned to normal over the three
months of treatment (see figure). In 30 months
of subsequent follow-up, the patient remained
clinically and biochemically eugonadal and
symptom-free on no treatment.

[stevey_6t9]

its an interesting study...but when you think about it swiftos pct thread makes sense.

pct is a time to use your bodys OWN GnRH to stimulate LH and the leydigs to get back to work.

Id hate to get back to normal using hcg during pct only to find out that when i finish pct and the hcg, my body has to then kickstart its own production without relying on that synthetic hormone, which may take months and result in loss of gains.

[AlphaGenetics]

Ive heard bad stories about hcg from many studies. I guess all the bb's using it now are in fact guinne pigs.

[Hard.On]

its an interesting study...but when you think about it swiftos pct thread makes sense.

pct is a time to use your bodys OWN GnRH to stimulate LH and the leydigs to get back to work.

Id hate to get back to normal using hcg during pct only to find out that when i finish pct and the hcg, my body has to then kickstart its own production without relying on that synthetic hormone, which may take months and result in loss of gains.

Im not saying what swiftos thread states is wrong.

I just want to show that some things have more then one use and can be more effective in different situations. ONE thing I can't say enough is that every single person is different

[Hard.On]

Private message from a member:

Examination revealed a muscular and fitlooking
man with mild and tender gynaecomastia,
very scant body hair, and reduced testicular
size. Endocrine investigations revealed
severe hypogonadism, with a serum testosterone
of 0.8 nmol/l (normal range 10.0-30.0),
and serum FSH and LH both undetectable.
Prolactin level, and magnetic resonance imaging
of the pituitary and hypothalamus were
normal. Dynamic pituitary function testing
with glucagon, thyrotropin-releasing hormone
(TRH) and LH-releasing hormone showed
normal responses of cortisol, growth hormone
(GH), thyrotropin (TSH), and FSH/LH. A
diagnosis of severe hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism
due to anabolic steroid abuse was
made.
He initially refused to give up anabolic steroids
and was therefore offered Sustanon treatment
with a contract that he in return would
stop other steroids . It was hoped that this might
at least act as a 'damage limitation' strategy
short-term. Sustanon 250 mg intramuscularly
(im) was given every two weeks, and serum
testosterone levels rose into the normal range
(see figure). His libido, potency and hair
growth returned to normal. His cessation of
anabolic steroid misuse was supported by urine
screening tests. After 15 months on Sustanon,
he had given up body-building and was in fulltime
education. He voluntarily stopped treatment,
but serum testosterone fell from 14.0 to
8.5 nmol/l (see figure) and impotence rapidly
returned. To stimulate testicular function he
was given injections of HCG over the next
three months (10 000 units im weekly for one
month, 5000 units weekly for one month, and
2500 units for one month). Within a week of
starting treatment, libido had greatly improved,
and spontaneous nocturnal ejaculations
occurred. Serum testosterone levels and
potency returned to normal over the three
months of treatment (see figure). In 30 months
of subsequent follow-up, the patient remained
clinically and biochemically eugonadal and
symptom-free on no treatment.

Ahh yes, Thank you,
That is a very impressive study

[Hard.On]

Ive heard bad stories about hcg from many studies. I guess all the bb's using it now are in fact guinne pigs.

Ill be the next one

[TITANIUM]

Special thanks to twotimer and doc for this thread.

Interesting studies.

I can tell you that, for myself, I have ran HCG both ways.

I found that during I have normal libido and ejaculations.

Slight testicular atrophy.

I have ran it at the end and during cycle.

Also during and through PCT.

Running it basically during the cycle straight through PCT worked best.

This is JUST as applied to myself, and not for everyone.

Recovered better this way, may be relevant to my age.



Best

T

[Hard.On]

Special thanks to twotimer and doc for this thread.

Interesting studies.

I can tell you that, for myself, I have ran HCG both ways.

I found that during I have normal libido and ejaculations.

Slight testicular atrophy.

I have ran it at the end and during cycle.

Also during and through PCT.

Running it basically during the cycle straight through PCT worked best.

This is JUST as applied to myself, and not for everyone.

Recovered better this way, may be relevant to my age.



Best

T

Thanks T,
I remember reading that in another thread you posted in.

I also think running it before the end of a cycle into PCT is a really good idea as well.

[TITANIUM]

Thanks T,
I remember reading that in another thread you posted in.

I also think running it before the end of a cycle into PCT is a really good idea as well.

It's just what worked best for myself.

Us old guys recover alot slower, if at all, then the younger crowd on here.

I am right on the edge of TRT myself.

Best

T

[FranciscoG]

Ill be the next one

From what I seen and read I am starting to lean toward:

1) Using hCG on cycle at 500IU to 1000IU EOD (or three times a week) for a maximum of 8 week.

2) Post last shot of aas use hCG more aggressively for a period 3 weeks. 1500 IU 3 times a week or so.

3) HMG is a great addition while aas are in your system.

4) Use of tomax to avoid gyno.

[dec11]

hasnt hcg been proven as suppressive?

[Hard.On]

hasnt hcg been proven as suppressive?

The only study I have read that states that info was from
K Purvis in 1977
hCG suppression of LH receptors and responsiveness of testicular tissue to hCG

But thats it
It was a study on male rats, and it was pretty crap

[Swifto]

HPGA Normalization Protocol After Androgen Treatment

N Vergel, AL Hodge, MC Scally
Program for Wellness Restoration

Methods
An uncontrolled study of 19 HIV-negative eugonadal
men, ages 23 – 57 years, administered testosterone
cypionate and nandrolone decanoate for 12 weeks,
and then were treated simultaneously with a combined
regimen of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG ) (250
IU/QODx16d), clomiphene citrate (50 mg PO BID x 30d)
and tamoxifen (20 mg PO QD x 45d), to restore the
HPGA.

Results
Mean FFM by DEXA increased from 64.1 to 69.8 kg
(p<.001); percent body fat decreased from 23.6 to 20.9
(p<.01); strength increased significantly from 357.4 lb
to 406.4 lb (p=.02). No significant changes in serum
chemistries and liver function tests were found. HDL-C
decreased from a mean value of 44.3 to 38.0 (p=.02).
Mean values for luteinizing hormone (LH) and total
testosterone (T) were 4.5 and 460, respectively prior
to androgen treatment. At the conclusion of the 12-
week treatment with androgens the mean LH <0.7
(p<.001) and total testosterone was 1568 (p<.001). The
mean values after treatment with the combined
regimen were LH=6.2 and testosterone=458.

Discussion
The use of androgens has been reported to improve
lean body mass, strength, sexual function, and mood
accompanied by side effects caused by continuous
uninterrupted use of these compounds (polycythemia,
testicular atrophy, hypertension, liver dysfunction
[oral androgens] and alopecia.) Androgen-induced
HPGA suppression causes a severe hypogonadal state in
most patients that often require an extensive period of
considerable duration for normalization. This prevents
most if not all individuals from cycling off these
medications due to the adverse impact of this state on
their previously gained LBM and quality of life. The
protocol of hCG-clomiphene-tamoxifen was successful
in restoring the HPGA within 45 days after androgen
cessation. Further controlled studies are needed to
determine if these results can be duplicated in HIVpositive
subjects.[/CENTER]



I just thought some might find this interesting.
Its just a study that I found while researching.

I know lots of BB that tell me to use HCG for PCT (with nolv/clom) and it has done wonders for them. However due to everyone reading swifto's thread. When ever you talk about it in this forum everyone quickly jumps in and says nonono, only during cycle. I dont think that for a 12-16 week cycle HCG is needed during cycle, it would be better to use during PCT.

I believe that doing the best possible PCT is more important then the cycle itself. It is a proper PCT that makes a cycle worth it!


This is only for those doing cycles upto 16 weeks IMO


I am 6 weeks into test prop/Dbol Cycle

I am going to run this for a PCT.


Unless someone can provide me with an actual study with subjects proving me wrong.

I have seen this study before.

I have never stated HCG cannot be used during PCT. The use of HCG during PCT is when the testis have atrophied and become dormant due to little/no endogenous stimulation (testicular dysfunction). Therfore, using SERMs even at high doses isnt enough stimulation to get the testis up and running again, thats where HCG comes in.

But if one has used HCG on cycle, throughout or at precise points, the testis are online and firing. So HCG during PCT isnt needed. There already waiting for endo. LH and FSH. Once endo. LH and FSH levels rise, the testis will secrete testosterone (leydig cells) and sperm (steroli/germ cells).

This study is intresting becasue it shows that endo. LH rose after using HCG. Undoubtedly this was becuase of the use of SERMs (Clomid/Tamox). Endo. LH may have risen further if HCG hadnt been used, but I'm speculating. It showed an increase even in the presence of HCG.

Im not saying what swiftos thread states is wrong.

I just want to show that some things have more then one use and can be more effective in different situations. ONE thing I can't say enough is that every single person is different

Good.

[Swifto]

From what I seen and read I am starting to lean toward:

1) Using hCG on cycle at 500IU to 1000IU EOD (or three times a week) for a maximum of 8 week.

2) Post last shot of aas use hCG more aggressively for a period 3 weeks. 1500 IU 3 times a week or so.

3) HMG is a great addition while aas are in your system.

4) Use of tomax to avoid gyno.

Nice layout.

I've recently not used HCG on cycle and just run it at the end of the cycle (final 3 weeks) at 625ius/EOD. I'll see how PCT goes.

[alpenguy]

Nice layout.

I've recently not used HCG on cycle and just run it at the end of the cycle (final 3 weeks) at 625ius/EOD. I'll see how PCT goes.

Now your really confusing me. Are you now a proponent for an HCG end of cycle protocal, not 125-250 IU e3d???, as you suggested in 8/22 post per Dr. Crislers advise???????????????????????????????????????????

[alpenguy]

It's just what worked best for myself.

Us old guys recover alot slower, if at all, then the younger crowd on here.

I am right on the edge of TRT myself.

Best

T

I hear that- -BTW what was your last cycle and amount of HCG used through if you don't mind

[Swifto]

Now your really confusing me. Are you now a proponent for an HCG end of cycle protocal, not 125-250 IU e3d???, as you suggested in 8/22 post per Dr. Crislers advise???????????????????????????????????????????

Use it throughout, but no more than 12-14 weeks without a layoff.

I'm experimenting.

[Hard.On]

Use it throughout, but no more than 12-14 weeks without a layoff.

I'm experimenting.

Experimenting is Fun.

There are way to many research studies on HCG from as far back as the 60's. probly earlier.

The problem is that so many of them contradict eachother. Keep in mind that some of the doctors who do the studies were paid by pharma companies that produce HCG, so its tough to know what to believe.

Thats why this forum is great because almost everyone here who uses it has an unbias opinion on their results.