Running AI on HCG

**.EA.** · 04-27-2010, 12:36 PM

Is it a must? This is going to be my first time running HCG with a cycle. I only get minimal water retention on cycle, so I was just wondering if I can run HCG without an AI.

**tronics** · 04-27-2010, 04:23 PM

it will increase estrogen from what ive read, so its good to use at least a dose AI to be safe..

**.EA.** · 04-27-2010, 05:23 PM

Would A-dex suffice? What would be the best to take in this scenario (besides Caber, of course, for prolactin control).

Running:
500mg of Test E/week
300mg Nandrolone Decanoate/week
500/600 IUs of HCG /week
1mg of Caber/week (2x 0.5mg)
*Either an AI, Adex or Aromasin

Help would be much appreciated.

**Bossman** · 04-27-2010, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by .EA.

Is it a must? This is going to be my first time running HCG with a cycle. I only get minimal water retention on cycle, so I was just wondering if I can run HCG without an AI.

I thought the same thing, but a member recently pointed out that HCG does not increase estrogen through aromatase so an AI would not stop the increase in estrogen. Nolva will help though by blocking the estrogen receptor.

Sorry, I would reference the thread but it was a while back.

**Tyler694** · 04-27-2010, 06:28 PM

I have read both ways on the HCG (adex or nolva). Seems nolva is more commonly mentioned though..

**.EA.** · 04-29-2010, 02:06 AM

Would 20mg of Nolva a day be enough?

**Swifto** · 04-29-2010, 03:45 AM

Originally Posted by cgb6810

I thought the same thing, but a member recently pointed out that HCG does not increase estrogen through aromatase so an AI would not stop the increase in estrogen. Nolva will help though by blocking the estrogen receptor.

Sorry, I would reference the thread but it was a while back.

Actually it does by two pathways. Who ever posted that has no idea what their talking about.

HCG can directly increase testicular estrogen. The testes produce around 10-15% of a males estrogen (healthy). HCG can directly stimulate this and an AI will not help. Tamoxifen will help block this testicular estrogen.

The other pathway is HCG increasing endogenous testosterone by stimulating the leydig cells. It doesnt matter if your also using androgens, it will still increase endo. T. The increase in testosterone will then cause an increase in estrogen via aromotasation. Which an AI will help.

HCG will also increase progesterone via degradation of testosterone.

I always think an AI should be used at a low dose, unless your using HRT doses. Elevated estorgen can cause a host of problems, as can reduced estrogen (CNS function, labido, testosterone synthesis, GH and IGF production, bone density etc...) so keep it in NORMAL ranges.

**FranciscoG** · 04-29-2010, 08:58 AM

Tamoxifen will help prevent gynocomastia from both direct stimulation, which is a condition of using hCG , and possible aromitization.

An A.I. will have ZERO ZERO ZERO effect on direct stimulation.

Using and AI for a purpose that is impossible to achieve is a course of action based on ignorance.

Gyncomastia is a PROGRESSIVE condition and direct stimulation of one´s body to produce estrogen will contribute to this condition.

**Swifto** · 04-29-2010, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by PharmDoc-Cyrus

Tamoxifen will help prevent gynocomastia from both direct stimulation, which is a condition of using hCG , and possible aromitization.

An A.I. will have ZERO ZERO ZERO effect on direct stimulation.

Using and AI for a purpose that is impossible to achieve is a course of action based on ignorance.
Gyncomastia is a PROGRESSIVE condition and direct stimulation of one´s body to produce estrogen will contribute to this condition.

It is.

But HCG will also increase estrogen via testosterone /aromotasation aswell.

**FranciscoG** · 04-29-2010, 11:48 AM

A conclusion can only be make taking into account the totality of the user´s usage, genetic estrogen prone gyno, the lenght and so on.

If the user experiences initial signs of gyno with hCG usage nolv is a must.

Aromatization will not lead to gynocomastia if the E2 is depleted. Usage of hCG combined with the proper dosage of tomax will achieve this. With an AI this is impossible.

**Black** · 04-29-2010, 12:21 PM

I'm not sure about any studies, but I can atleast give my experience.

I'm on TRT.

Initial Dosage: 300mg Test Cyp a week (taken bi-weekly). Estrogen tested at 41 in a range of 0-54

I felt my Test dose was too high (which it was), so I backed it down to 200mg a week (taken bi-weekly). Doctor also wanted me to start HCG (for obvious reasons). HCG was started at 250iu 2x a week.

After being on this protocol for awhile, doc ordered up bloodwork. Estrogen tested at 71 in a range of 0-54. PSA was still in low range, but was elevated .1 (Doc said no worries. It was due to high E2). He then started me on Arimidex at .5mg EOD.

Not sure why such an increase (30 points) in E2, other than the addition of HCG. Could it just be that my body is aromatizing more of the test now? Since started Arimidex, I can definitely tell a difference in less water retention and other things. Will be testing again soon.

**Swifto** · 04-30-2010, 05:04 AM

Originally Posted by PharmDoc-Cyrus

A conclusion can only be make taking into account the totality of the user´s usage, genetic estrogen prone gyno, the lenght and so on.

If the user experiences initial signs of gyno with hCG usage nolv is a must.

Aromatization will not lead to gynocomastia if the E2 is depleted. Usage of hCG combined with the proper dosage of tomax will achieve this. With an AI this is impossible.

Yeah, I agree. There are lots of variables.

I'm an advocate of an AI being used on moderate doses of aromotasables as it is. Obviously taking into account the total amount of aromotasable androgens, not just testosterone .

I've been swaying towards using an AI for the final 2-3 weeks of PCT PharmDoc. As SERMs can push up E2, then cause a rebound apon cessation. Aromasin 10mg/EOD in the final weeks is what I have done and it has worked well. BW will show exactly whats happend. What are your thoughts?

**FranciscoG** · 04-30-2010, 07:01 AM

It all depends.

It is highly dependant on the individual the amount of natural estrogen produced. Continued exposure and variable dosages also will have an impact.

If an individual is taking an AI and still retaining water or signs of gyno show up then you would have to consider 20 mg tomax.

Tomax will take care of hCG , stand alone, estrogen related sides. With high amounts of androgens one would need an AI.

Tomax, however, is effective with usage of low amounts of androgens.

**crazy_rocks** · 05-01-2010, 09:07 AM

so while using hcg an AI can work but if sides continue on an AI switch to nolva?

**FranciscoG** · 05-01-2010, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by crazy_rocks

so while using hcg an AI can work but if sides continue on an AI switch to nolva?

We do not know exactly how each and every person will react to hCG . We do know your body is stimulated/forced to produce estrogen. How much estrogen in highly dependant on the person/dosage/lenght and so on.

Some people maybe fine just using an AI if thier individual genetics and enviromental factors correspond.

Without usage of tomax you are more than likely to have estrogen related sides. And again, the degree of these sides depends on many factors.

Best course of action is have tomax on hand each and every time you use hCG. If you are on a precontest cycle you need to use tomax with hCG to address any E sides. If you are gyno prone you will need tomax. If you plan on using hCG long term.... I can keep going but I am sure the point is made.

**Bossman** · 05-02-2010, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by Swifto

Actually it does by two pathways. Who ever posted that has no idea what their talking about.

HCG can directly increase testicular estrogen. The testes produce around 10-15% of a males estrogen (healthy). HCG can directly stimulate this and an AI will not help. Tamoxifen will help block this testicular estrogen.

The other pathway is HCG increasing endogenous testosterone by stimulating the leydig cells. It doesnt matter if your also using androgens, it will still increase endo. T. The increase in testosterone will then cause an increase in estrogen via aromotasation. Which an AI will help.

HCG will also increase progesterone via degradation of testosterone.

I always think an AI should be used at a low dose, unless your using HRT doses. Elevated estorgen can cause a host of problems, as can reduced estrogen (CNS function, labido, testosterone synthesis, GH and IGF production, bone density etc...) so keep it in NORMAL ranges.

I was told that this action happened first, before test was increased. So during this time, an AI would not work. It wasn't until later that test would increase by stimulating the leydig cells.

If this is true, then a Serm would be necessary if you were gyno prone. Would test increase enough from HCG alone that an AI would be needed?

**Tyler694** · 05-02-2010, 11:52 AM

So, running .25mg adex EOD and 10mg Nolva ED. Would that suffice for what he is asking about?

**FranciscoG** · 05-02-2010, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Tyler694

So, running .25mg adex EOD and 10mg Nolva ED. Would that suffice for what he is asking about?

For the cycle he is running he will be fine with 20mg Nolva ED.

**.EA.** · 05-02-2010, 09:04 PM

Sweet, thanks guys. This is exactly what I needed.

**John88Test** · 05-03-2010, 06:26 AM

So if I were doing the same thing as this guy above and decided to take a two week break from HCG could I discontinue the Nolva for this period of time but continue as is. Right now I'm running Test Ent at 500mg p/wk and tbol 40mg p/day. I run HCG at 250iu twice a week. I take Aromasin at 25mg per day. So if I add in Nolva at 20mg per day I should be good or since I have a higher Aromasin dose I could get away with a lower dose of Nolva or maybe none at all?

Sorry don't mean to hijack but this thread is right on the money so to speak with my current situation. Thanks fellas.