front loading with prop is not what you think!

[Ronnie Rowland]

I keep reading were a lot of people on our board are using test prop to front load/kick start their cycles. My question is what do you feel you are accomplishing by doing so?

Please read post 955 in the following thread- You'll want to read this!

[Big]

I've used plenty of each, and I certainly feel the effects of prop sooner than the effects of longer esters, so I'm not quite sure what you are saying.

[*RAGE*]

I can't say I agree with this

Peace

[Ronnie Rowland]

I've used plenty of each, and I certainly feel the effects of prop sooner than the effects of longer esters, so I'm not quite sure what you are saying.

I use to think the same thing Big, but according to studies test enanthate actually kicks in faster. Thinking back it was probably just a placebo effect.

Testosterone propionate : Maximal testosterone levels in the supraphysiological range where seen 14 hours after injection!

Test enanthate or cypionate : Maximal range where seen "only" 10 hours after injection!

Reference from the book Testosterone Action Deficiency Substitution 2nd edition, Chapter 11 Comparative pharmacokinetics of testosterone esters page 333 and page 335.

[Ronnie Rowland]

I can't say I agree with this

Peace

What part of the study do you not agree with RAGE?

[*RAGE*]

What part of the study do you not agree with RAGE?

I did not read the study but plan to.

I do understand what you are saying with in hours your test levels are much higher with test e then test prop...

but it has been my personal experience running test e, gains come about three and a half weeks into the cycle...

With test prop the gains start kicking in, in about day nine... but to be totally honest here, I have never ran prop by itself, i have always ran mast or tren with it so I really cant say my personal experience are correct.

if this makes any since..

[Big]

I use to think the same thing Big, but according to studies test enanthate actually kicks in faster. Thinking back it was probably just a placebo effect.

Testosterone propionate : Maximal testosterone levels in the supraphysiological range where seen 14 hours after injection!

Test enanthate or cypionate : Maximal range where seen "only" 10 hours after injection!

Reference from the book Testosterone Action Deficiency Substitution 2nd edition, Chapter 11 Comparative pharmacokinetics of testosterone esters page 333 and page 335.

I never was one for studies compared to real world experience
keep in mind I do not have a higher education, and have no medical training whatsoever, I just learned what works well for me through trial and error.
Looking great in the avvy by the way.

[Vitruvian-Man]

Anyone who has ever run test-p vs. test-e realizes the difference that a long vs. short estered compound makes on the cycle.

Also, your studies don't take into account, whatsoever, the effects of ester weight on compounds... especially the amount of active hormone per ester...

Thoughts?

-VM

[stevey_6t9]

test enanthate may "kick in" faster but levels dont peak until 4 weeks im assuming.

lets say your taking 500mg of test e per wk. and assume the half life is 7days to keep things simple.

week 1:500mg/2 = 250mg
week 2: 250mg+ 500mg= 750/2 = 375mg
week 3: 375mg+500mg = 875/2 = 437.5mg
week 4 :437.5mg+500mg = 937.5/2 = 486.5mg
week 5 :486.5mg+500mg = 986.5/2 = 493.25mg

but say you were to use an active dose of 500mg of prop a week at 71.42mg ED per week, your total levels wud hit 500 much faster.

anyone agree?

[Bossman]

I can feel prop in 3-4 days, but I don't feel the effect of Cyp for 3-4 weeks.

[snowboarder77]

Never tried prop I heard it hurts like a S.O.B

[Ronnie Rowland]

I can feel prop in 3-4 days, but I don't feel the effect of Cyp for 3-4 weeks.

In no way am I wanting to argue this topic with anyone, but rather bring forth some adult discussion as most people think prop kicks in faster than test enanthate and cypionate and that appears not to be the case.

I think the reason we all might feel test prop faster is not because it kicks in faster but because it has a higher initial peak.

[snowboarder77]

So how bad does it hurt doing prop????? Never known anyone that has done it before.

Just heard that it hurts....

[Ronnie Rowland]

So how bad does it hurt doing prop????? Never known anyone that has done it before.

Just heard that it hurts....

You can get very sore and stay that way several days after the shot (I'm talking not hardly being able to sit down without your glutes killing you) and the frequent pinning gets old very fast!

[snowboarder77]

You can get very sore and stay that way several days after the shot (I'm talking not hardly being able to sit down without your glutes killing you) and the frequent pinning gets old very fast!

To hell with that! Why do it? Is it that worth it?
Like I said I have never done it and have never known anyone who has.
By the way,,looking good in the avatar. I cant get any of my pics in mine

[NVR2BIG1]

The advantage of test e over prop for me is cost more than anything. Its def going to run you a little more hitting prop, but the less frequent injects are nice though. But one thing a lot of people dont realize, is 500mg/wk prop is not the same as 500mg/wk test e, the prop is much stronger mg for mg because of the half life. I think an even better front loader is suspension, actually if you can afford to go 3 wks on/3 off suspension throughout cycle its a nice addition.

[Mr.Rose]

Ronnie, Today is day 15 of my tren A and test P cycle, and at 500mg/week of prop pinned ED, i am only JUST starting to notice gains in the gym, thats 2 weeks in. So you have a nice point.

My question is, does the fact of the matter being that test-e peaks blood-plasma conc. 4 hours earlier than test p mean that it builds test levels to peak conc. (for your dosage) faster over the 2-3 weeks than test p?

[Ronnie Rowland]

test enanthate may "kick in" faster but levels dont peak until 4 weeks im assuming.

lets say your taking 500mg of test e per wk. and assume the half life is 7days to keep things simple.

week 1:500mg/2 = 250mg
week 2: 250mg+ 500mg= 750/2 = 375mg
week 3: 375mg+500mg = 875/2 = 437.5mg
week 4 :437.5mg+500mg = 937.5/2 = 486.5mg
week 5 :486.5mg+500mg = 986.5/2 = 493.25mg

but say you were to use an active dose of 500mg of prop a week at 71.42mg ED per week, your total levels wud hit 500 much faster.

anyone agree?

According to studies test enanthate peaks out at around 5 times above basal only 8- 24 hours after injection (not 4 weeks later).

On the other hand, testosterone levels go below the normal range only 2 days following an injection of test propionate .

[Ronnie Rowland]

To hell with that! Why do it? Is it that worth it?
Like I said I have never done it and have never known anyone who has.
By the way,,looking good in the avatar. I cant get any of my pics in mine

The only time I use test prop is 4 days out before a bodybuilding contest and it's only 1 shot. I use it on the day I begin front loading carbs. I feel the test prop helps increase glycogen storage and 4 days gives plenty of time for water retention to dissapear.

[Ronnie Rowland]

The advantage of test e over prop for me is cost more than anything. Its def going to run you a little more hitting prop, but the less frequent injects are nice though. But one thing a lot of people dont realize, is 500mg/wk prop is not the same as 500mg/wk test e, the prop is much stronger mg for mg because of the half life. I think an even better front loader is suspension, actually if you can afford to go 3 wks on/3 off suspension throughout cycle its a nice addition.

OUCH! Suspension hurts even worse than prop IMO..

[Ronnie Rowland]

Ronnie, Today is day 15 of my tren A and test P cycle, and at 500mg/week of prop pinned ED, i am only JUST starting to notice gains in the gym, thats 2 weeks in. So you have a nice point.

My question is, does the fact of the matter being that test-e peaks blood-plasma conc. 4 hours earlier than test p mean that it builds test levels to peak conc. (for your dosage) faster over the 2-3 weeks than test p?

I don't think it makes any difference which test you use as long as you continue using it. Whether it kicks in 4 hours earlier or 4 hours later is not whats important! Gains start after around 2-3 weeks with any form of test (not because levels are peaking after 2-3 weeks) but rather it takes some time for muscle tissue to start building!

[snowboarder77]

The only time I use test prop is 4 days out before a bodybuilding contest and it's only 1 shot. I use it on the day I begin front loading carbs. I feel the test prop helps increase glycogen storage and 4 days gives plenty of time for water retention to dissapear.

I hear ya..
4 days wouldn't be to bad then.
Don't know if I could stick myself everyday for a couple weeks that is.

[BG]

I've used plenty of each, and I certainly feel the effects of prop sooner than the effects of longer esters, so I'm not quite sure what you are saying.

x 2, I used to always do it when I ran long esters and there was a huge diffence then just running enathate. I would end with prop also and start getting gains and my body would harden up.

[c-Z]

Always love reading your posts man.... However I agree with big and rage as well... With the longer esters I feel it takes much longer to kick vs the prop. But It usually doesn't take as long as some say...

So does this mean that troll awhile back was correct? Damn I wish i still had that post. Because he said the same thing. And everyone was bashing the sh*t out of him. Yet he said its safer to stay on longer rather than keep shutting yourself down and getting it all going again.

Buttt yeahhh anyhow nice post..

[Mr.Rose]

Thanks ronnie. Just eat, sleep, shutup and shoot. .

And you guys are bitches, sorry, but i only run prop or suspension for test, i pin ED for 12 weeks or 18 if i do ronnies load/deload/reload cycle. Sometimes i even 2x a day with suspension.. No pain, no gain.

[c-Z]

Everyone always uses prop in the beginning. Has anyone who runs pct ever thought of actually using it at the end? PCT for long esters require much longer wait time to start PCT. Therefore you kind of drag a bit waiting for that 2 weeks or almost 3 weeks.

Would you benefit from running prop say 2 days before last long ester injection for 2-3 weeks this way your pct would start much sooner rather than having to wait those couple weeks.

[c-Z]

Thanks ronnie. Just eat, sleep, shutup and shoot. .

And you guys are bitches, sorry, but i only run prop or suspension for test, i pin ED for 12 weeks or 18 if i do ronnies load/deload/reload cycle. Sometimes i even 2x a day with suspension.. No pain, no gain.

2x a day with suspension.....? Why bother with suspension first of all.... Shouldn't it be more like 3x a day? Never really read into the stuff because I have no reason to run it... But yeah clarification would be nice.

[Mr.Rose]

2x a day with suspension.....? Why bother with suspension first of all.... Shouldn't it be more like 3x a day? Never really read into the stuff because I have no reason to run it... But yeah clarification would be nice.

2x a day is more then enough, it has a half life of around 8-12 hours according to most sources, however 3x would be much better.

Well being a fighter nothing helps more than that sudden test rush, and you only get that with suspension. Not to mention for every 100mg you inject you get 100mg of test.

Also AAS don't have to be injected IM, even though i mostly do. It has been shown ( if you want ill look for the studies) that there is minimal if no difference between sub-q and IM injections. So with suspension i like to do one sub-Q and one IM at 50-75mg an injection.

[snowboarder77]

Thanks ronnie. Just eat, sleep, shutup and shoot. .

And you guys are bitches, sorry, but i only run prop or suspension for test, i pin ED for 12 weeks or 18 if i do ronnies load/deload/reload cycle. Sometimes i even 2x a day with suspension.. No pain, no gain.

You the man...

[c-Z]

Yeah I have seen studies on sub q and IM....

But if you have a reason to run it.. Go on ahead. HAHA.... Yeah test e is what like 72mg of actual test too 100mgs right? so really if you wanted 100mgs you need to run more like 140mgs of test e to get that full 100mgs eh?

I never really worry about it. HAHA i just pick a dose and run it.

[stevey_6t9]

Always love reading your posts man.... However I agree with big and rage as well... With the longer esters I feel it takes much longer to kick vs the prop. But It usually doesn't take as long as some say...

So does this mean that troll awhile back was correct? Damn I wish i still had that post. Because he said the same thing. And everyone was bashing the sh*t out of him. Yet he said its safer to stay on longer rather than keep shutting yourself down and getting it all going again.

Buttt yeahhh anyhow nice post..

i remember that guy actually, he was saying prop has never been proven to be faster, but i did give him a bashing. He was also saying stuff about no pcts though to.

[stevey_6t9]

ok i think ronnies got a good point, heres something i found:

"Adding an ester delays the amount of time that it takes for the steroid to leave the body, although peak concentrations are realized (with both long as well as short esters) within a day or two at most."

http://www.*********.com/steroid-esters/

[chopzall]

my brother calls test e dirty because of the long ester and says he will never use it again. he complains about the bloating and simply will not listen to me when i tell him he will not retain water so much if he just takes steps to curb it with other compounds

[c-Z]

i remember that guy actually, he was saying prop has never been proven to be faster, but i did give him a bashing. He was also saying stuff about no pcts though to.

Yeah we all bashed his ass LOL..... Yeah some of the stuff he said was ridiculous though.

[BG]

A lot of things look good on paper , but when applied in real life dont stand up.

[Ronnie Rowland]

my brother calls test e dirty because of the long ester and says he will never use it again. he complains about the bloating and simply will not listen to me when i tell him he will not retain water so much if he just takes steps to curb it with other compounds

That's a crazy idea right there about test e being dirty. He obviously does not realize it but, TEST is TEST in the end regardless of the ester and while some feel they get less bloat from prop, some feel they get more bloat, because the initial peak is higher than with enanthate .

[Ronnie Rowland]

ok i think ronnies got a good point, heres something i found:

"Adding an ester delays the amount of time that it takes for the steroid to leave the body, although peak concentrations are realized (with both long as well as short esters) within a day or two at most."

http://www.*********.com/steroid-esters/

And this is why some people cannot sleep their very first night after injecting tren enanthate ! It hits so quick the insomnia has already begun. I know this to be fact! Tren ace is even worse because it peaks higher but both compounds hit you fast!

[BigIce]

Regardless of how it looks on paper or what blood testing shows, gains are made sooner with Prop then with enth/cyp.

Isn´t that all that matters.

We are not frontloading to get results out of a blood test, its for early gains and thus elongating our cycles.

Am I getting this tread all wrong or....

[chopzall]

thanks for the reply to my first post ronnie rowland. to clarify on his statements what he is saying is that the bloat sucks and he is getting less test per mg so it is therefore an inferior test. he is very hard headed somtimes. he has never even used prop. also this peak you are talking about tells me on thing. I need to do more research. I can follow from one of you post what you mean i just do not fully comprehend the concept.

[supermanfw]

To hell with that! Why do it? Is it that worth it?
Like I said I have never done it and have never known anyone who has.
By the way,,looking good in the avatar. I cant get any of my pics in mine

Thats why god made sustanon and andropen ........When I first started using gear my friend was running a prop cycle and i was sustanon...pretty much I keeped my gains longer than he did but i think the cause of it was that he was slacking in his diet....but thats just a thought...