Test and Winny effects

[Marty_4]

Couple of questions guys, well general wonderments.

What exactly are steroids such as anavar and winny going that cuts us up on a cutting cycle?

Also

When on test (e, c, prop and sus) we have more red blood cells correct? Should this increase out cardio ability?

Regards...
Marty.

[redz]

Neither anavar nor winny cut fat.

[Knockout_Power]

The best way to understand how they work, you should read up on each in the profiles section.

[bjpennnn]

The best way to understand how they work, you should read up on each in the profiles section.

truer words have never been said ha

[Swifto]

Neither anavar nor winny cut fat.

If they reduce fat mass (FM) they "cut fat".

As does Test Enan and the majority of other steroids.

Even in seditary individuals, FFM/LBM increases, FM is reduced, strength increases in untrained subjects.

Given AAS, subjects tend to loose more FM than other subjects not on AAS. Thats "cutting fat" to you and me.

[redz]

Yes but if someone takes those compounds and eats crappy or does't work out then they won`t cut fat.

[Swifto]

"Crappy food", yeah ok.

"Not workout" is seditary.

[Swifto]

Anavar (Oxandrolone) and Test Enan (untrained):



Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1995 Sep;19(9):614-24.

Oral anabolic steroid treatment, but not parenteral androgen treatment, decreases abdominal fat in obese, older men.

Lovejoy JC, Bray GA, Greeson CS, Klemperer M, Morris J, Partington C, Tulley R.

Pennington Biomedical Research Center, Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70808-4124, USA.

Abstract
OBJECTIVE: To compare the effects of testosterone enanthate (TE), anabolic steroid (AS) or placebo (PL) on regional fat distribution and health risk factors in obese middle-aged men undergoing weight loss by dietary means. DESIGN: Randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial, carried out for 9 months with primary assessments at 3 month intervals. Due to adverse blood lipid changes, the AS group was switched from oral oxandrolone (ASOX) to parenteral nandrolone decaoate (ASND) after the 3 month assessment point. SUBJECTS: Thirty healthy, obese men, aged 40-60 years, with serum testosterone (T) levels in the low-normal range (2-5 ng/mL). MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Abdominal fat distribution and thigh muscle volume by CT scan, body composition by dual energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA), insulin sensitivity by the Minimal Model method, blood lipids, blood chemistry, blood pressure, thyroid hormones and urological parameters. RESULTS: After 3 months, there was a significantly greater decrease in subcutaneous (SQ) abdominal fat in the ASOX group compared to the TE and PL groups although body weight changes did not differ by treatment group. There was also a tendency for the ASOX group to exhibit greater losses in visceral fat, and the absolute level of visceral fat in this group was significantly lower at 3 months than in the TE and PL groups. There were significant main effects of treatment at 3 months on serum T and free T (increased in the TE group and decreased in the ASOX group) and on thyroid hormone parameters (T4 and T3 resin uptake significantly decreased in the ASOX group compared with the other two groups). There was a significant decrease in HDL-C, and increase in LDL-C in the ASOX group, which led to their being switched to the parenteral nandrolone decanoate (ASND) after 3 months. ASND had opposite effects on visceral fat from ASOX, producing a significant increase from 3 to 9 months while continuing to decrease SQ abdominal fat. ASND treatment also decreased thigh muscle area, while ASOX treatment increased high muscle. ASND reversed the effects of ASOX on lipoproteins and thyroid hormones. The previously reported effect of T to decrease visceral fat was not observed, in fact, visceral fat in the TE group increased slightly from 3 to 9 months, although SQ fat continued to decrease. Neither TE nor AS treatment resulted in any change in urologic parameters. CONCLUSIONS: Oral oxandrolone decreased SQ abdominal fat more than TE or weight loss alone and also tended to produce favorable changes in visceral fat. TE and ASND injections given every 2 weeks had similar effects to weight loss alone on regional body fat. Most of the beneficial effects observed on metabolic and cardiovascular risk factors were due to weight loss per se. These results suggest that SQ and visceral abdominal fat can be independently modulated by androgens and that at least some anabolic steroids are capable of influencing abdominal fat.
PMID: 8574271 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Swifto]

More on Anavar:


J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Oct;89(10):4863-72.


Effects of androgen therapy on adipose tissue and metabolism in older men.

Schroeder ET, Zheng L, Ong MD, Martinez C, Flores C, Stewart Y, Azen C, Sattler FR.

Department of Medicine and Division of Infectious Diseases, University of Southern California, Los Angeles, California 90033, USA.

Abstract
We investigated the effects of oxandrolone on regional fat compartments and markers of metabolism. Thirty-two 60- to 87-yr-old men (body mass index, 28.1 +/- 3.4 kg/m(2)) were randomized to oxandrolone (20 mg/d; n = 20) or matching placebo (n = 12) treatment for 12 wk. Oxandrolone reduced total (-1.8 +/- 1.0 kg; P < 0.001), trunk (-1.2 +/- 0.6 kg; P < 0.001), and appendicular (-0.6 +/- 0.6 kg; P < 0.001) fat, as determined by dual energy x-ray absorptiometry. The changes in total and trunk fat were greater (P < 0.001) than the changes with placebo. By magnetic resonance imaging, visceral adipose tissue decreased (-20.9 +/- 12 cm(2); P < 0.001), abdominal sc adipose tissue (SAT) declined (-10.7 +/- 12.1 cm(2); P = 0.043), the ratio VAT/SAT declined from 0.57 +/- 0.23 to 0.49 +/- 0.19 (P = 0.002), and proximal and distal thigh SC fat declined [-8.3 +/- 6.7 cm(2) (P < 0.001) and -2.2 +/- 3.0 kg (P = 0.004), respectively]. Changes in proximal and distal thigh SC fat with oxandrolone were different than with placebo (P = 0.018 and P = 0.059). A marker of insulin sensitivity (quantitative insulin sensitivity check index) improved with oxandrolone by 0.0041 +/- 0.0071 (P = 0.018) at study wk 12. Changes in total fat, abdominal SAT, and proximal extremity SC fat were correlated with changes in fasting insulin from baseline to study wk 12 (r >or= 0.45; P < 0.05). Losses of total fat and SAT were greater in men with baseline testosterone of 10.4 nmol/liter or less (<or= 300 ng/dl) than in those with higher levels [-2.5 +/- 1.1 vs. -1.5 +/- 0.8 kg (P = 0.036) and -24.1 +/- 14.3 vs. -2.9 +/- 21.3 cm(2) (P = 0.03), respectively]. Twelve weeks after discontinuing oxandrolone, 83% of the reductions in total, trunk, and extremity fat by dual energy x-ray absorptiometry scanning were sustained (P < 0.02). Androgen therapy, therefore, produced significant and durable reductions in regional abdominal and peripheral adipose tissue that were associated with improvements in estimates of insulin sensitivity. However, high-density lipoprotein cholesterol decreased by -0.49 +/- 0.21 mmol/liter and directly measured low-density lipoprotein cholesterol increased by 0.57 +/- 0.67 mmol/liter and non-high-density lipoprotein cholesterol increased by 0.54 +/- 0.97 mmol/liter (P < 0.03 for each) during treatment with oxandrolone; these changes were largely reversible. Thus, therapy with an androgen that does not adversely affect lipids may be beneficial for some components of the metabolic syndrome in overweight older men with low testosterone levels.

PMID: 15472177 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Saying that "steroids dont burn fat", is parrotted garbage. I see it everyday.

No offence mate.

[redz]

Saying that "steroids dont burn fat", is parrotted garbage. I see it everyday.

Saying they do burn fat makes people think they can take them and do nothing and they will lose fat which simply isn`t the case. We can aggree to disagree here because I know with the right training and diet they will help burn fat but by itself it will not burn fat unless in conunction with proper training and diet.

[Swifto]

Saying they do burn fat makes people think they can take them and do nothing and they will lose fat which simply isn`t the case. We can aggree to disagree here because I know with the right training and diet they will help burn fat but by itself it will not burn fat unless in conunction with proper training and diet.

Wrong. Read the studies again.

The first study is in "untrained subjects/individuals".

To quote, "Oral oxandrolone decreased SQ abdominal fat more than TE or weight loss alone and also tended to produce favorable changes in visceral fat."

"After 3 months, there was a significantly greater decrease in subcutaneous (SQ) abdominal fat in the ASOX group..."

What dont you understand about Anavar or other steroids burning fat (FM, VC, SF) in an untrained state? You could be sitting there watching the World Cup and the androgens would be "burning fat".

[bjpennnn]

when i am using mast i swear i can just chill and burn fat ha

[Swifto]

The burn fat trained or untrained.

You could be a fat c*nt and take AAS and lose MORE weight (FM, VC, SF) that someone else not using AAS on the same diet.

I'm not suggesting that by all means, but to say they "dont burn fat" is plain wrong and in contradiction with clinical data on the subject.

[redz]

Wrong. Read the studies again.

That's one study, I know of some lazy people who barely trained and gained fat while on a test and winny cycle. I think there is more to it.

[bjpennnn]

hahaha swiftos point is that they would of gained more fat if they didnt take gear.

[Swifto]

That's one study, I know of some lazy people who barely trained and gained fat while on a test and winny cycle. I think there is more to it.

Actually, the other one is untrained aswell.

Its not rocket surgery (see what I did there...).

2 identical people on the same diet, one takes AAS. The one on AAS loses more FM than the one not on AAS. Therfore, AAS burn fat, or reduce fat mass (FM). Thats the last time I'm saying it.

hahaha swiftos point is that they would of gained more fat if they didnt take gear.

I'm glad someone understands.

[redz]

hahaha swiftos point is that they would of gained more fat if they didnt take gear.

That's pretty hypothetical because there are other sides like increased appetite while on that need to be considered too also people can become lathargic while on too which could lead to reduced activity.

[redz]

I'm glad someone understands.

You don`t need to be insulting, I`m making my point from things I have seen not an example of 2 people written in a controlled study where outcomes or results can easily be manipulated to show what they want.

[Swifto]

You don`t need to be insulting, I`m making my point from things I have seen not an example of 2 people written in a controlled study where outcomes or results can easily be manipulated to show what they want.

Redz, c'mon.

Your clutching at f*cking straws now mate. I'm not here to get into an argument with you, nor am I here to belittle you in any way/shape/form.

I'm meerly disagreeing with you and stating why, then proving my opinoin with data (like I always do).

Their both peer-reviewed double blind controlled studies. Their not done by supplement companies selling a certain product. This is getting ridiculas.

Read my bold statement in the post I made before this. Apettite, lathergy are irrelevant.

[redz]

I think that in most cases the result will be fat loss but to say the compounds will do that is simply not always true.

[Swifto]

The studies arnt done on "2 people" either. There done on 62 subjects (32 + 30).

One study was done for "9 months".

Honestly, if you cant interpret the data and want to cherry pick what it says be my guest.

Your wrong, accept it.

Who gives a shit.

When I'm wrong I learn something. I'm constantly learning everyday.

[bjpennnn]

smoke dope and rap....agree to disagree.