"Clomid and Nolvadex are some of the most toxic drugs . . . "

[richtries]

Just read an article by Eric M. Potratz . . . 'Everything thats wrong with your PCT', bit about SERMS has scared me quite a bit.

Whats peoples thought on this? Have many of you turned to alternatives like resveratrol??

[c-Z]

Never even heard of that. Wheres the article by the way? Would definitely be a good post.

[mtb1981]

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=436045

[Pac Man]

Interesting read, never heard of reservatol but I'm going to look into it. What I really would like to see are numbers and comparison to the most commonly used liver toxic drug, alcohol. If clomid were no worse than a month long binge I wouldn't worry too much, unless your an alcoholic or heavy drinker. In that case you got other shit to worry about first.

[Jahcuree]

^ agree, very interesting read, id like to hear some of the more educated members comment on that article

[dezza6969]

I posted this article a while back and there are a few responses worth a read

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=394408

also I think someone else posted it even longer back and there's a few good points on that 1 too

[richtries]

So Toremifene Citrate and Raloxifene Citrate are the new generation of SERMS . . .

Are a lot of you guys using these because it doesn't seem like they are widely available?

Seriously considering a slower natural recovery as opposed to administering carcinogenic drugs into my body!?

[dezza6969]

Ya toremifene n raloxifene are 2nd generation serms and have less side effects.

Mind you I think it was swifto who pointed out in that thread that far too many people are using high doses of clomid when just 25mg ED raises endogenous test 145%. Personally I went down the minimalistic dosing on Serms post cycle after doing a lot of research on SERMs effects. For two cycles I used hcg on cycle and 25mg clomid and 20 mg nolva everyday post cycle and have recovered test levels, which have remained in the higher test brackets well after pct. I couldn't imagine doing higher doses of gen 1 serms, when they have maximal effects at much lower doses. The side-effects vs benefits are not worth the higher doses from what I can see

[Jahcuree]

Ya toremifene n raloxifene are 2nd generation serms and have less side effects.

Mind you I think it was swifto who pointed out in that thread that far too many people are using high doses of clomid when just 25mg ED raises endogenous test 145%. Personally I went down the minimalistic dosing on Serms post cycle after doing a lot of research on SERMs effects. For two cycles I used hcg on cycle and 25mg clomid and 20 mg nolva everyday post cycle and have recovered test levels, which have remained in the higher test brackets well after pct. I couldn't imagine doing higher doses of gen 1 serms, when they have maximal effects at much lower doses. The side-effects vs benefits are not worth the higher doses from what I can see

Awesome relay of info Dezza, appreciate that bit about lower doses doing the same as higher.

[PK-V]

so how low is low enough for nolva

40mg on day one, then 20mg from there on in until tapering down to 10mg until you feel recovered?

my reasoning for the 40 on day one is a sort of front load as on day 2 you will take 20mg and 20 left over from the half life so you will always have active 40 in your system as nolva has 22hr active life

[richtries]

bump for above . . . as I am finding it difficult to locate any of these new generation SERMS.

[dezza6969]

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=349581

read this for a good idea

[PK-V]

bump for above . . . as I am finding it difficult to locate any of these new generation SERMS.

toremifene/raloxifene and the like of naltrexone/triptorelin are all readily available

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=349581

read this for a good idea

thanks for the link

but I it's doesn't seem to address the half life/front load problem

probably insignificant

[dezza6969]

Hey man probably best to ask one of the vets who have a lot of theoretical knowledge & practical experience like swifto, Marcus or big. I know a lot of people dose close to double the amount for the first couple of weeks to kick the hpta back into action, but clomid raises test more than nolva & torem at 25mg in a short space of time, I couldn't see the point in exposing myself to higher doses of 'toxic' serms, when clomid works so quickly and efficiently at low
doses. I think clomid is an important addition in pct, albeit not in ridiculous doses because of it's quick effect on hpta. I guess what I'm trying to say is I can't personally see any advantage in frontloading serms as long as clomid is in pct due to how fast it acts and it's effects at 25mg. For next cycle I'm goin try out torem at 60mg ed, along with my clomid at 25mg and hcg on cycle. See how the torem goes. Shit mate I went on a bit of a tangent when your question was about front-loading based on half-life calculations better off shooting the vets a pm and running it passed em for best advice

[no1tou]

Good stuff. PCT is kickin my ass right now.

[PK-V]

Hey man probably best to ask one of the vets who have a lot of theoretical knowledge & practical experience like swifto, Marcus or big. I know a lot of people dose close to double the amount for the first couple of weeks to kick the hpta back into action, but clomid raises test more than nolva & torem at 25mg in a short space of time, I couldn't see the point in exposing myself to higher doses of 'toxic' serms, when clomid works so quickly and efficiently at low
doses. I think clomid is an important addition in pct, albeit not in ridiculous doses because of it's quick effect on hpta. I guess what I'm trying to say is I can't personally see any advantage in frontloading serms as long as clomid is in pct due to how fast it acts and it's effects at 25mg. For next cycle I'm goin try out torem at 60mg ed, along with my clomid at 25mg and hcg on cycle. See how the torem goes. Shit mate I went on a bit of a tangent when your question was about front-loading based on half-life calculations better off shooting the vets a pm and running it passed em for best advice

ha no worries bro, I know what you mean

Im def gonna try out torm in the near future

just recently bought 1200mg of tamoxifen

so it ill do me for 2 cycles