How often should I be training, how many recovery days?

[james_trudee]

age - 20
weight - 170
body fat- 7%

I am currently running 600 mg/week test enth. This is my 2nd cycle.

My current workout plan is 5 days monday-friday, with saturday, sunday off to recover. For almost all excersices but legs i'm doing 4 sets. 1 set light 12 reps, 2-4 HEAVY.

Here is my current workout plan, I was just wondering what you guys would reccomend I add or take away from this plan.

Day 1 Chest:
Flat Bench
Dips
Incline bench (same as flat bench)
Incline Dumbell fly’s
Cable Crosses
Push-ups



Day 2 Back:

Lat Machine (Wide-Grip)
Lat Pull Downs (Wide-Grip)
Rows
Pull Downs (V-Grip)
Dead-lifts
Back Raises


Day 3 – Shoulders

Smith Machine Bench
Shoulder Machine Press
Side Raises (Single-arm)
Front Raises (Straight Bar)
Rear Delt



Day 4 – Bi’s Tri’s

Standing E-Z Curls
Sitting Curls (Straight Bar)
Single Arm Curl (Sitting)
Standing Dumbell Hammer Curls
Reverse Curls E-Z Curl
French Press
Smith Machine Close Grip
Tricep Push Down
Tricep Push Down (Rope)
Shrugs


Day 5 – Legs
Leg Extensions (Ham & Quad)
Leg Press
Hack Sqauts
Calves

Forgot to ask if I should even bother taking recovery days. And core is done monday, wed.

[HawaiianPride.]

5 movements for biceps and 4 for triceps? No squats? Smith flat bench on your shoulder day? Your routine seems a bit unorthodox, but if it's working then more power to you.

Yes you need to recovery days. Being on the juice doesn't make you invincible, you need time to repair the damaged tissue you've caused.

Have you gotten any kind of blood work done? 2 cycles and you aren't even 21 yet. What are your goals?

[james_trudee]

Yes, I did just nolvadex my first cycle for pct and got blood work done afterwords. Everything was recovered and back to normal. I know i'm still young to have started my 2nd cycle but i love bodybuilding and don't really care. I think i'm pretty mature about my training. I don't party or do drugs. And I'm eating very healthy. I also trained for 2.5 years naturally before considering steroids.

And sorry must have deleted the squats part of the workout plan.

So would 1 day off be okay for recovery or should i stick with the saturday, sunday off.

I've gained 8lbs in 2 weeks so far from this plan.

My goal is to still stay lean which I've never had a problem with. I want to purely bulk to 190-200 if possible.

[james_trudee]

Also i took 5 months off between these 2 cycles.

[HawaiianPride.]

Everyone's recovery capacity is different, but yes I would aim for at least 48 hours out of the week to let your body recover.

[dec11]

shrugs for bi's/tri's??????

you really shouldnt be using at your age

[HawaiianPride.]

Also i took 5 months off between these 2 cycles.

5 months isn't enough IMO. Time on including pct with an additional 2 months including blood work should be the way to go about it when you are a novice.

[james_trudee]

Yeah I understand, everyone tells me that. My plan is to finish off this cycle and train naturally untill atleast 24-25. But regardless im finishing this cycle. HCG/nolva for pct.

My friend reccomended shrugs on bi/tris day because something to do with the grip.

[HawaiianPride.]

Sure, a shrugging movement would tax your forearms, but it's a static contraction. If you want to train your grip, do it properly. If you want to train your traps, stick them with back or shoulders. Reason being you recruit the traps on these two days anyways, so to have another day dedicated to them while the muscle tissue is damaged/reparing would be counterproductive and hinder growth.

HCG is meant for pre-PCT, not during. Look into an actual SERM.

[dec11]

Yeah I understand, everyone tells me that. My plan is to finish off this cycle and train naturally untill atleast 24-25. But regardless im finishing this cycle. HCG/nolva for pct.

My friend reccomended shrugs on bi/tris day because something to do with the grip.

strange advice

[james_trudee]

Okay so HCG at the end of my cycle, then running nolvadex is wrong?

I'm not taking any of that gear currently.

Yeah dec11 thats why im asking bro.

[HawaiianPride.]

No, I never said Nolvadex is wrong. I meant look into another SERM to sub for HCG, like Clomid or Tore.

[ottomaddox]

Huh?

age - 20
weight - 170
body fat- 7%

I am currently running 600 mg/week test enth.

Okay so HCG at the end of my cycle, then running nolvadex is wrong?

I'm not taking any of that gear currently.
Yeah dec11 thats why im asking bro.

[MrGreen]

Think he means he is not currently taking HCG (which he should be) or taking any Nolvadex.

[TKO Performance]

I have to agree that this is unorthodox. Typically in a beginner routine you'd want to work body parts only once a week. It looks like that's what you're doing, so I'm okay with that part of it. However you'd typically do this in just three days, working complimentary parts in the same day (like chest and upper back). A whole day devoted to shoulders seems excessive. Just my two cents, but I think this is going to lead you down the path to overtraining.

Remember that a competition body builder might work body parts twice a week in some kind of split routine, but they'd still be doing complimentary body parts in the same day. I would never recommend this kind of routine for anyone who's been training for under five years either. You simply don't have the muscle recovery ability before that. For the first three years at least I'd like to see you working three days a week, each body part once a week, and working complimentary parts the same day. In year four you could step up to a four day split routine, what I call a min-split. Then if you really want to go whole hog in year five you could step up to a five-six day routine working body parts twice a week.

Also, if you want bulk what are your sets looking like? Just doing flat sets won't get you much in that department. You need heavy pyramids to get big. I'd also recommend some drop sets and working past failure (negatives, ect.).

As stated, steroids will not make you invincible. You still need rest, and two days is minimum IMO, but I'd like to see them split up, not stacked together.

Also as stated, 20 is really too young to be doing the juice. It does sound like you're being careful, and a lot smarter than most of the people your age I've seen post here. Still, I advise you to complete your second cycle and stay away until you're at least 25.

[MACHINE5150]

age - 20
weight - 170
body fat- 7%

I am currently running 600 mg/week test enth. This is my 2nd cycle.

My current workout plan is 5 days monday-friday, with saturday, sunday off to recover. For almost all excersices but legs i'm doing 4 sets. 1 set light 12 reps, 2-4 HEAVY.

Here is my current workout plan, I was just wondering what you guys would reccomend I add or take away from this plan.

Day 1 Chest:
Flat Bench
Dips
Incline bench (same as flat bench)
Incline Dumbell fly’sSWITCH TO DELCINE DUMBELL
Cable Crosses<--- DO THIS OR FLYES.. NOT BOTH.. IT IS BASICALLY THE SAME EXERCISE
Push-ups <--- I IMAGINE YOU DO THIS TO FAILURE AT THE END??? PUSH UPS ARE PRETTY POINTLESS UNLESS YOU ARE WARMING UP OR JOINING THE MILITARY



Day 2 Back:

Lat Machine (Wide-Grip)
Lat Pull Downs (Wide-Grip)
Rows
Pull Downs (V-Grip)
Dead-lifts
Back Raises


Day 3 – Shoulders

Smith Machine BenchCUT THIS OUT
Shoulder Machine Press
Side Raises (Single-arm)
Front Raises (Straight Bar)
Rear Delt



Day 4 – Bi’s Tri’s

Standing E-Z Curls
Sitting Curls (Straight Bar)
Single Arm Curl (Sitting)
Standing Dumbell Hammer Curls
Reverse Curls E-Z CurlDO THREE EXERCISES FOR BICEPS.. NOT 5.. PICK THE THREE U LIKE THE MOST AND DO THOSE
French Press
Smith Machine Close Grip
Tricep Push Down<-- DO EITHER THIS OR THE ROPE.. NOT BOTH
Tricep Push Down (Rope)
Shrugs<---- JUST DO SOME KIND OF OTHER FOREARM WORKOUT.. I.E. HANG YOUR WRISTS OVER A BENCH OR PREACHER CURL STATION AND MAKE PROPER MOVEMENTS BACK AND FORTH IN ORDER TO DEVELOP YOUR FOREARMS PROPERL


Day 5 – Legs
Leg Extensions (Ham & Quad)
Leg Press
Hack Sqauts
Calves

Forgot to ask if I should even bother taking recovery days. And core is done monday, wed.

read the bold above

I agree with the above post.. you really can get all this done in three days.. thats all i train with good results... I do the common Push/Pull split.. i.e. work your push muscles one day your pull on the other.. pull being back and bicep and shoulders.. push being chest and triceps.. although you can train shoulders on either day.. then do legs on thier own day.. devoting a whole day to Arms and a whole day to Shoulders is a bit excdessive, but if you have the time go for it.. just make sure that you allow your muscles a minimum of 48-72 hours between working muscles.. i.e. if you do bench.. don't do tri's again for atleast 48-72 hours depending on how fast you recover

[MACHINE5150]

forgot to mention.. make sure you are gonig until failure at the end of each muscle group.. i.e. you are unable to complete another rep with out a spot or some other type of assistance.. Also try to incorporate negatives (requires a spotter).. this is when you put more on say... bench then you can actually press.. and you lower it down to your chest as slow as you can several times.. works wonders

[ottomaddox]

It's amazing how unclear people can be. I would put more rest into your routine. Two days on and 1 off. The CNS need time to recover too. Sound like Overtraining to me. Been there and done it. More is not always better. You make your gains when your not in the gym. How long do your workout take?

Think he means he is not currently taking HCG (which he should be) or taking any Nolvadex.

[dec11]

Okay so HCG at the end of my cycle, then running nolvadex is wrong?

I'm not taking any of that gear currently.

Yeah dec11 thats why im asking bro.

heavy dlifts will give you a grip like iron my friend

[AlphaGenetics]

I rest each muscle group 6 days.

[Sc0rch]

HCG is meant for pre-PCT, not during. Look into an actual SERM.

Disagree.

I've used HCG during cycle and for PCT and I recover much better when I use it during PCT with a SERM.

[Sc0rch]

. I also trained for 2.5 years naturally before considering steroids.

2.5 years is nothing. I trained for 20 years and gained 60lbs naturally before juicing.

You shouldn't be using steroids at age 20...period.

[HawaiianPride.]

I'm tired of repeating the subject on HCG during PCT use. If I had a nickle for every time I told someone how counterproductive it is, I'd be on a Yacht somewhere off the coast of the Galapagos with my girl enjoying my retirement. If you recovered fine, that's fantastic.

[Sc0rch]

It's counter productive DURING cycle.

Not only are high levels of estrogen suppressing your LH during cycle, but now you're going to add even more estrogen via HCG which even further suppresses LH.

You want to stimulate your leydig cells with as little estrogen rebound as possible so your natural LH levels can come up.

Yes, I've used both methods, and there is no comparison, I recover much better using HCG post cycle.

[MACHINE5150]

I'm tired of repeating the subject on HCG during PCT use. If I had a nickle for every time I told someone how counterproductive it is, I'd be on a Yacht somewhere off the coast of the Galapagos with my girl enjoying my retirement. If you recovered fine, that's fantastic.

It's counter productive DURING cycle.

Not only are high levels of estrogen suppressing your LH during cycle, but now you're going to add even more estrogen via HCG which even further suppresses LH.

You want to stimulate your leydig cells with as little estrogen rebound as possible so your natural LH levels can come up.

Yes, I've used both methods, and there is no comparison, I recover much better using HCG post cycle.

can we all just agree to disagree on this..

HP has a point but that is assuming you are using an AI as well because you will do better producing more testosterone naturally.. and HP is also saying it is better to never let your testicles shrink by running it the whole time through your cycle.. i have only ran it post cycle and had great results.. there is no right or wrong way, it is a matter of preference

[smalltime7]

after reading his post I was thinking I was under training at 4 sets 1 body part per week.

[MACHINE5150]

after reading his post I was thinking I was under training at 4 sets 1 body part per week.

four sets or four exercises.. i would say 4 sets is undertraining

[TKO Performance]

Agreed. I do four sets of three exercises per body part once a week and have never had problems making gains.

I feel bad for guys with a weak grip. My grip's always been like iron. I did a lot of drawing when I was a kid, plus wrenching on cars, and manual labor for construction my whole life. I do not work my forearms at all. They are proportionate to my upper arms as is, and more cut, so I see little point.

The push/pull split is a good one, so is the push/pull on the same day. It all depends on what works for you and what you like. I usually do:

Mon: Chest/Upper Back
Wed: Arms/Shoulder
Fri: Legs/Lower Back

I have also done the back/bi, chest/tri, legs/shoulders three day workout with god results. The key is rest and going hard until failure no matter what routine you use.

[dec11]

my fav all time split is

mon chest/arms
wed legs/abs
fri back/shoulders

the prob training say, legs/shoulders is your concentrating the blood flow in one part of the body and then trying to push it to the opposite end of the body, best to keep top and lower halves on diff days

[dec11]

It's counter productive DURING cycle.

Not only are high levels of estrogen suppressing your LH during cycle, but now you're going to add even more estrogen via HCG which even further suppresses LH.

You want to stimulate your leydig cells with as little estrogen rebound as possible so your natural LH levels can come up.

Yes, I've used both methods, and there is no comparison, I recover much better using HCG post cycle.

not if you control the estro. ive done both methods and they worked equally

[TKO Performance]

my fav all time split is

mon chest/arms
wed legs/abs
fri back/shoulders

the prob training say, legs/shoulders is your concentrating the blood flow in one part of the body and then trying to push it to the opposite end of the body, best to keep top and lower halves on diff days

That's why I like my current setup. Even when doing a push exercise like say benchpress you are still using your back to an extent, because you are controlling the weight down before pushing it up (and if you're not your should be, so change your form before you get hurt). This helps keep the muscles not being actively worked warm and the blood flowing, plus it keeps it in the same area of the body as noted.

[smalltime7]

four sets or four exercises.. i would say 4 sets is undertraining

lol I stand corrected 4 exercises w/4 sets per part.

[TKO Performance]

That's good, but I wouldn't go over that. Especially with the smaller muscle groups like shoulders. I've found the line between training hard and overtraining is a very fine one.

[rock_and_God]

Think he means he is not currently taking HCG (which he should be) or taking any Nolvadex.

why should he be taking HCG while on cycle?

[james_trudee]

Yeah thanks all ^^

Nolvadex + clomid worked great for recovery last cycle, some of my friends reccomended taking hcg this time through.

And also how about cardio, I feel like i need to work on it more since my resting heart rate sits around 90-100.

[HawaiianPride.]

It's counter productive DURING cycle.

Not only are high levels of estrogen suppressing your LH during cycle, but now you're going to add even more estrogen via HCG which even further suppresses LH.

You want to stimulate your leydig cells with as little estrogen rebound as possible so your natural LH levels can come up.

Yes, I've used both methods, and there is no comparison, I recover much better using HCG post cycle.

Read.

"Post-Cycle-Therapy is a must upon cessation of steroid use. Many great Post Cycle Therapy protocols have been outlined over the years, and many individuals have had success with following such protocols. Nevertheless, what works can always work better, and I intend to show you the most effective way to recover from AAS. This is especially the case for those that have had a lack of success following popular advice. In this article I will address the misunderstanding and misuse of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) and show you the most efficient way to use hCG for the fastest and most complete recovery.

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to increase testosterone levels. (1) More specifically LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone.

When steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, which causes rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and Insulin-like factor 3 (INSL3). All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production. (2-6,19) However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of hCG ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that HCG should be used after a cycle, during Post-Cycle-Therapy. Upon reviewing the science and basic endocrinology you will see that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hCG is ran during a cycle.

Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of hCG to understand its purpose and its most efficient application. Many popular “steroid profiles” advocate using hCG at a dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical (1960's) hCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency. (21,22) A prolonged LH deficiency causes the testes to desensitize, requiring a higher hCG dose for ample stimulation. In men with normal LH levels and normal testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only 250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu. (2,11) (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above their normal capacity.) (12-18) If you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function; but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won't regain full testicular function.

One term that is critical to understand is testosterone secretion capacity which is synonymous to testicular sensitivity. This is the amount of testosterone your testes can produce from any given level of LH or hCG stimulation. Therefore, if you have reduced testosterone secretion capacity (reduced testicular sensitivity), it will take more LH or hCG stimulation to produce the same result as if you had normal testosterone secretion capacity. If you reduce your testosterone secretion capacity too much, then no amount of LH or hCG stimulation will trigger natural testosterone production, and this leads to permanently reduced testosterone production.

To get an idea of how quickly you can reduce your testosterone secretion capacity from your average steroid cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration. (2,9,10) By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%. (2-6)

Note: visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone. (4) This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, when the testes may only appear 5-10% smaller, the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly reduced to 98% of their normal production. (3-5) So do not judge how "shutdown" you are by testicular size!

The decreased testosterone secretion capacity caused by steroid use was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hCG post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hCG, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids. (8) In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hCG at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size. (7) Another study with men using low dose steroids for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of Insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of HCG treatment for 12 weeks (6) (INSL3 is an important biomarker for testosterone production potential and sperm production). (20)

In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. We must protect our testicular sensitivity. Besides, with hCG being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn't use it ON cycle.

Based on studies with normal men using steroids, 100iu HCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hCG. (2) It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular sensitivity is reduced, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use. Also, it's important to discontinue the hCG before you start Post-Cycle-Therapy so your leydig cells are given a chance to re-sensitize to your body's own LH production. (To help further enhance testicular sensitivity, the dietary supplement Toco-8 may be used).

Based off the above information, an optimal dose of hCG during the cycle would be 250iu every 4 days, or as a less desirable alternative, once a week shot of 500iu. Keep in mind, that the half-life of hCG is 3-4 days, while the half-life of LH is only 1-2 hours. Considering this difference in excretion time, it is best to space each dose of hCG at least 4 days apart for the optimal "peak and valley" replication. However, going more than 7 days between each hCG shot may promote increase the rate of desensitization from lack of LH or hCG stimulation.

If you are starting hCG late in the cycle, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG "kick starting" dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence. (ie. 40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose) Remember, since the testes will be desensitized later in a cycle, you will require a higher dose. Also, the maximum daily dose of hCG should not exceed 5000iu, and 4-7 days must be taken off between each shot. Generally, a higher dose will require a longer off period between each shot. (eg., 2500iu = 7 days between each shot).

Note: hCG should NOT be used for PCT.

Recap

For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 250iu every 4 day starting 14 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels. This will initiate a strong LH and FSH surge from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone. Remember, recovery doesn't begin until you are off hCG since your body will not release its own LH until the hCG has cleared the system.

In conclusion, we have learned that utilizing hCG during a steroid cycle will significantly prevent testicular degeneration. This helps create a seamless transition from “on cycle” to “off cycle” thus avoiding the post cycle crash." -BJJ's post.

In brief: It mimics LH production and interrupts your HPTA feedback loop the same way injecting testosterone does = Counter-productive during your PCT.