How much test before symptoms of GYNO on average?

[uf21]

Just wanted to know how much test (mg, mls) a week before symptoms of gyno start to appear?

[G4R]

It varies from person to person. Higher BF% plays a big role in it as well. You cant really say "gyno will start to show up at xxxmg".

[uf21]

G4R I know. What I meant was "mg, mls per week roughly".

The higher the body fat % the more chance of getting gyno?

[G4R]

IDK, again, since it varies its hard to say. If I HAD to pick a rough estimate, it would prob be doses over 600mg/week would start to show. BUT, again, some guys get it with doses below 500mg/week.

As for the higher BF leading to gyno, there's an enzyme found in your body fat called aromatase which converts testosterone to estrogen. If you have high levels of body fat, aromatase will be very active in your system, converting your Test into unwanted estrogen, and that is what leads to gyno.

[bigpapabuff]

if you are worried about gyno you should use an ai like exemestane throughout cycle.

[uf21]

if you are worried about gyno you should use an ai like exemestane throughout cycle.

Problem is cant get prescription drugs like that oct here in aus.

[uf21]

I want to start my first cycle but im worried bout gyno. The best thing I can get is novedex xt.

I got test enanthate and I wanna keep the dosages low (2mls/500mg a week).

[lovbyts]

Many people develop gyno with zero ml/mg per week. A lot of people have childhood gyno due to high body fat that carries into adult hood or they develop it later in life. It is no AAS dependent.

[Bio-Active]

Just wanted to know how much test (mg, mls) a week before symptoms of gyno start to appear?

Keep the body fat down and there will be less chance of gyno.

[magic32]

I'm sorry fellas, but body fat amount has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with gyno! Fatty breasts whether on men or women are just that, and nothing more. Consequently, they rise and fall in correlation to overall body fat, unlike gyno.

Gyno, is NOT fatty tissue. As clearly shown in mammography/ultrasonography film and in post op glandular removal pics, it is firm, tender or non-tender LITERAL breast tissue development. NOR IS THERE ANY COORELATION BETWEEN BODY FAT AND GYNO OR GETTING GYNO!

Regardless of what you hear parroted on different boards, gyno is the physical result of how well or poorly (depending on your perspective) your body deals (based mostly on genetic predisposition) with a change in the very delicate Test-Estro ratio. Most bodies manage it quite well, other’s are more sensitive and do so poorly, while still others handle it very poorly. But regardless of gyno’s cause, i.e. pubertal, various medicine side effects, exposure to ratio changing elements whether internally consumed or topically administrated oils, e.g. lavender, tea tree, etc., containing products that are absorbed transdermally, or idiopathic (of unknown origin) numerous studies conclusively demonstrate that gyno is best combatted via a modest course of Nolvadex . Some studies have used it singularly, others have run it concurrently or sequentially with Letro, or various gyno impacting DHTs.

Note: In my studies I came across one New England Journal of Medicine publication where 3 boys nowhere near puberty (ages 4, 10 & 7) got it from shampoos and lotions. The little guy’s ratio balance was so slightly off that his test-estro measures were still in range, and one of the others only had elevated Test, not estro which was still enough to throw off this balance.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056...064725#article

Nevertheless, the most important common denominator is unfortunately most often overlooked…DURATION! You have to let the drug work! Don’t set a pre-designated course such as 1mth, or even two, it’s usually 3-5mths sometimes 6 and I’ve even seen 11. These drugs are preferred by the receptor site, and operate by effectively starving the newly formed breast tissue of its nourishing estrogen supply until it can simply no longer sustain itself, resulting in a breakdown and re-absorption into the body. Similarly, have you ever seen a marathoner approach the finish and utterly collapse several yards from it. At that point they literally have NO more calories to burn and their bodies can no longer support locomotion or even stand…same principle.

“Yes”, it’s best to remove/discontinue any known causes.
“No”, it’s not necessarily vital that they are removed, i.e. discontinuing a cycle. Even though gyno has been initiated, i.e. the ratio imbalance, and development of tissue, the receptors can still be starved during cycle definitely inciting gyno arrest and even reversal while on.

The other often overlooked factor in gyno therapy is CONTINUED duration. Remember the doctor’s orders when prescribing antibiotics? “Take the full bottle, don’t discontinue usage when the symptoms disappear.” In that same vein, always, always, always, run your gyno therapy a couple of weeks past full symptom resolution. You’re not treating the symptoms, you’re treating the problem. Just as we use Test to outrun Nors, go at LEAST two extra weeks.

And before you ask, “no” I don’t have my research here, it’s on my hard drive, but I’ll post it when I get a chance. Or you can look up some of my gyno-related posts where I documented study results (drugs, dosages & durations). I just get tired of seeing parroted misinformation about this topic and wanted to take a few minutes to write this post. I’m working on a comprehensive A-Z sticky, but can’t seem to make time to finish it…for that I apologize. But remember this:

POOR: A-dex (it simply isn’t potent enough to do this particular job VERY WELL)
GOOD: Mase
BETTER: Letro
BEST: Nolva

And contrary to popular belief these remedies are static and unconcerned with prolac, progest, or other estroidal-related origins. Again the TRUE CAUSE is the imbalance and not the reason for it. I'll also try to locate the flow diagram that graphically illustrates how the various ancillary estrogen hormones are contributing facilitators, but not primary causes.

Best to you.

[magic32]

Superb questions!

Ok, you have me tremendously curious now. After reading your post about high BF not affecting whether or not you can develop gyno, I started looking a little more indepth.

One question I have, and am hoping you can help clarify is, according to almost every article on gyno, one of the primary causes is (as you stated) how the body deals with its Test/Estro levels. One of the causes of gyno being Hypogonadism. From what I am reading, it is stating that lower levels of Testosterone in the male body is possibly a main cause of gyno.
NOPE, WHAT IT SUGGESTS IS THAT LOWER (IN THIS CASE) TEST LEVELS WAS THE IMBALANCING FACTOR! WHICH AS I POINTED OUT IS TRUE, JUST AS LOWER OR HIGHER ESTRO CAN BE. HOWEVER, REGARDLESS OF THE FACTORS THAT INITIATE THE RATIO IMBALANCE, SAID IMBALANCE IS 'ALWAYS' THE CAUSE. AND REMEMBER, IN THE LITTLE BOY'S CASE, THE IMBALANCE WAS SO NEGLIGIBLE THAT IT WASN'T DISCERNABLE THROUGH TESTING, I.E. HE WAS STILL WITHIN NORMAL RANGES FOR BOTH HORMONES. THE KEY IS THAT HE WAS IMBALANCED JUST FOR HIS SYSTEM...EVER SO SLIGHT, BUT OFF.

If that is the case, then why are gyno related issues more frequent in AAS users, when obviously higher amounts of testosterone are constantly in the body?
YOU HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE ROOT CAUSE, NAMELY, THE RATIO (NOT THE INDEPENDENT AMOUNTS OF TEST OR ESTRO). AS EXPRESSED IN MY POST, EVERYONE IS GENETICALLY EQUIPPED TO ‘UNIQUELY’ RESPOND TO RATIO CHANGES. THUS, THE REASON GYNO ISN'T FAR MORE PREVALENT LAYS WITHIN MOST PEOPLES’ GOOD IMBALANCED RATIO COPING ABILITY. AND THIS IS NOT A REBALANCING RESPONSE EITHER, NOR COULD IT BE, MOST PEOPLE JUST HANDLE IT WELL.

SINCE MOST OF US COPE QUITE WELL, GYNO IS RELATIVELY SPEAKING (IN COMPARISON TO THE VAST NUMBER OF AAS USERS) INFREQUENT, NEVERTHELESS, BECAUSE MANY GUYS DON’T/CAN’T COPE WELL, IT WILL ALWAYS BE A PROBLEM…ESPECIALLY FOR A POPULATION THAT SO READILY AND INTENTIONALLY SKEWS THIS RATIO LIKE THE AAS COMMUNITY.

If in men, that means that gyno can become an issue if estrogen levels are too high (such as when testosterone starts to convert to estrogen due to the aromatase reaction), and since aromatase is found most prevalently in fat cells, so the more body fat a man has, the more aromatase and hence the more estrogen.
YOUR LOGIC HERE THOUGH SOUND, IS STILL FLAWED. WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS, TAKE BAKING FOR EXAMPLE. IF A CAKE IS TO BE BAKED AT 350 DEGREES FOR 30 MINUTES, LOGICALLY (MATHEMATICALLY IN THIS CASE) IT WOULD BE SOUND TO DOUBLE THE HEAT (700 DEGREES) FOR HALF THE TIME (15 MINS). UNFORTUNATELY, THE HARD AND FAST PRINCIPLES OF MATH DON’T ALWAYS READILY LEND THEMSELVES TO THOSE OF BAKING, RESULTING IN A SEVERELY BURNED CAKE.

UNFORTUNATELY, ALTHOUGH A (ESTRO/ME) & B (GYNO/YOU) ARE RELATED, AND A (ESTRO/ME) & C (BODYFAT %) ARE RELATED, B & C ARE NOT ‘NECESSARILY’ RELATED. THE NATURE OF A RELATIONSHIP/LINK DETERMINES IT’S LEVEL OF ATTACHMENT (IF ANY), SO ALTHOUGH OUR FATHER’S CAN BE BROTHERS MAKING US COUSINS, ‘C’ CAN BE RELATED TO YOU BY VIRTUE/NATURE OF YOUR MOM, AND THUS NO RELATION TO ME. PLEASE FORGIVE THE RATHER CRUDE FAMILY TREE EXAMPLE BUT IT GENUINELY APPLIES HERE, AND THE SAME CAN BE SAID FOR THE WAY BRANCHED CHAINS ARE FORMED.

So wouldnt that mean that a person with higher body fat would be more prone to developing gyno since there would be more aromatase in the his body, thus more estrogen?
THIS IS AN IPSO FACTO ARGUMENT, IN WHICH YOU POSTULATE THAT MORE FAT = MORE AROMATIZATION = MORE GYNO INCLINATION.

BUT THE ANSWER IS STILL “NO”. HAVING MORE BF FOR AROMATIZING ACTIVITY TO TAKE PLACE, IN NO WAY EFFECTS YOUR GENETIC COPING MECHANISM. IN OTHER WORDS, INCREASING A RAW MATERIAL (LIKE BF) DOESN’T NECESSARILY IMPACT THE OUTCOME - JUST AS HAVING "MORE THAN ENOUGH" SOAP, WATER, OR TOWELS TO WASH YOUR CAR DOESN’T MAKE IT ANY CLEANER.

WE KNOW IPSO FACTO REASONING TO BE FALSE IN MANY THINGS SUCH AS FATTER WOMEN ALWAYS HAVE LARGER BREASTS, STRONGER LEGS EQUAL A HIGHER VERTICAL, BIG GUYS CAN BENCH MORE THAN SMALLER ONES, ETC. ALL OF THESE PRESUME CORRELATIONS THAT, THOUGH 'POSSIBLY' TRUE (SOMETIMES), ARE NOT 'NECESSARILY' TRUE (ALL THE TIME).

OR THINK OF IT IN TERMS OF SENSITIVITY, IN WHICH CASE IT’S TRUE OF MANY THINGS…HISTAMINE, SHELL FISH, PEANUTS, ALCOHOL, HIV, ETC. SOME PEOPLE ARE GENETICALLY PREDISPOSED TO BE MORE SENSITIVE (POORER IMBALANCE COPING MECHANISM) TO SEX HORMONE RATIO IMBALANCES AND PHYSICALLY REACT (MUCH LIKE ALLERGY SUFFERS, FAMILY ALCOHOLICS, AND THOSE WHO DO GET FULL BLOWN AIDS) WITH GYNO ACQUISITION. THUS, IF THE INITIATING FACTOR IS INTRODUCED (THE ALLERGEN, ALCOHOL, OR VIRUS), THEIR SENSITIVITY/GENETICALLY POOR COPING ABILITY WILL 'LIKELY' LEAD THEM TO A NEGATIVE END, LIKE GYNO.

NEVERTHELESS, A NATURALLY LEAN MAN WITH SINGLE DIGIT BF, WITH A POOR GENETIC PREDISPOSITION TO HANDLING THIS RATIO IMBALANCE WILL LIKELY ACQUIRE GYNO IF THE FACTOR IS STRONG ENOUGH (TEST/ESTRO TOO LOW OR HIGH). CONVERSELY, A MORBIDLY OBESE MAN WITH A GOOD GENETIC COPING PREDISPOSITION WILL NEVER GET IT REGARDLESS OF HOW MUCH HE SKEWS THE RATIO, AND ALTHOUGH HE’LL STILL HAVE SUBSTANTIAL FATTY BREAST DEPOSITS, IF OVERALL BF IS REDUCED SO TO WILL THESE DEPOSITS, AS OFTEN EVIDENCED BY BIGGEST LOSER COMPETITORS.

I love your articles, and would be more than appreciative if you would be able to help clarify this for me.
THANKS, BIG FAN OF YOUR WORK AS WELL.

Take care

I'm going to post this for community benefit and its invariable debate!

[D7M]

Excellent post!

Thanks Magic!

[wormwood]

Wow

How does Nolva, then, combat gyno in a user with say a high test level but a low Estro level? This person would have a poor ratio but not much estro, and doesn't Nolva combat gyno by blocking estro receptors on breast tissue? How does this help somebody who does not have hardly any estro but rather has gotten gyno because of his poor ratio? Wouldn't this person be better served by using something to INCREASE estrogen??

Does my question make sense?

[G4R]

I would like to personally thank Magic for taking the time to answer my questions. I was not trying to debate him, only to find answers to my lingering thoughts.

Thank you Magic

[uf21]

Nice Maigic32. Thanks for the info.

[Numb uK]

Marvelous post magic! Thank you for your answers, you are indeed very well educated!

[magic32]

Wow

How does Nolva, then, combat gyno in a user with say a high test level but a low Estro level? This person would have a poor ratio but not much estro, and doesn't Nolva combat gyno by blocking estro receptors on breast tissue? How does this help somebody who does not have hardly any estro but rather has gotten gyno because of his poor ratio? Wouldn't this person be better served by using something to INCREASE estrogen??

Does my question make sense?

Excellent question, although the answer was given above!

The problem with your presupposition, is it that implies the need for rebalancing the skewed ratio. This is untrue. The imbalance merely initiates gyno, it doesn’t maintain it. Once initiated, gyno is sustained via estro regardless of the levels (high or low), as it circulates thoughout the bloodstream it’s selected by the receptors in the breast and literally 'feeds' the newly formed tissue.

Nolva works by effectively blocking the body’s supply of estrogen to the gyno site, due to its preferential absorption. As indicated in my writing, the gyno tissue is then literally starved of its nourishment (estro) and begins to disintegrate. Although this action is not always complete, i.e. full reversal, it does seem to always work and is routinely considered satisfactorily resolved. That is to say, in those who don’t experience full resolution the gyno becomes unnoticeable small and virtually undetectable (both visually and tactilely) by those w/o foreknowledge of its existence.

[got fina?]

IMO there is no answer to this question. Its like asking, im prone to cancer becasue of my genes. When will it come??

Evverybody is different and everybody will get it or never get it at different times.

I did about 5 small cycle when i first started messing with steroids which concisted of test and some didnt. I didnt know what i know now, and never did a PCT for any of those cycles.

Anyways, Never had a problem till 2 years ago. Took Arrimidex and it went away within days.

Always remember: Read up on the basics, then listen to your own body. It will tell you more about whats going on than any website could....

Good luck!!

[vanlifter]

So could someone that has gyno thats not from steroids benefit from taking nolva? If so what dose how long?

[bodybuilder]

Great post majic. I always thought that higher BF+=higher chance of gyno. Just one question are you saying that nolva is better at fighting gyno then say Arimidex . I alwasy under the impression Arimidex was supposed to be better.

[magic32]

So could someone that has gyno thats not from steroids benefit from taking nolva? If so what dose how long?

You might want to read through the above information. Origin is irrelevant as indicated in post #10.

Excerpt:
But regardless of gyno’s cause, i.e. pubertal, various medicine side effects, exposure to ratio changing elements whether internally consumed or topically administrated oils, e.g. lavender, tea tree, etc., containing products that are absorbed transdermally, or idiopathic (of unknown origin) numerous studies conclusively demonstrate that gyno is best combatted via a modest course of Nolvadex. Some studies have used it singularly, others have run it concurrently or sequentially with Letro, or various gyno impacting DHTs.