Planning an Anavar Cycle

[mav6]

Hi all, I'm new here, but I've been doing my research on other forums and google searching every medical study I can dig up for the past 9 weeks.

I apologize in advance for the long post, but I figured it was better to just lay it all out at once rather than leave information out and make people fish for it. I hate when people write vague questions.

Let's see, stats:
Height: 5'9" in the morning, 5'8" after I lift
Weight: 155-165 pounds, currently 165, but I can gain or lose 10 pounds in a week easily and it fluctuates regularly even keeping my food intake exactly the same
I'm 26 years old, and I've been training in one program or another for 11 years. I made my first Junior team at 15, and I had organized S&C coaches till I was 18, at which point I got involved in track and marathons, and then at 22 I took up Olympic Weightlifting, at 24 I got into Crossfit, and now I'm coming off of a year worth of endurance training long runs and swims, and I'm starting Wendler 531 with light sprint work on off days (less than 20 minutes a day), giving me one full day off a week.

At 69kg, I competed with personal bests of a 100kg Clean and Jerk and a 72kg Snatch. At that time I also had deadlifted 405lbs, squatted 315, and standing pressed 160. Nothing record setting, but I made alot of progress in a short amount of time.

I think that about covers it for stats.

So, current run down, I ended up severely overtrained during my last endurance stint. I've got stress fractures in my tibias and metatarsals, so I've been scaling everything I do way back and stopped running for 9 weeks. During that time, I've been on Ipamorelin and Sermorelin at a dosage of 100mcg each 3x a day.

I also found out from my massage therapist that I have developed alot of small tears and fibrousity in my muscles along my spine.

Yesterday, I was doing week 1 of Wendler 531, doing cleans because I prefer them over deadlifts, and I'm about 90% sure I tore a muscle in my back. Probably the supra spinatus, but it could be the lat. The pain is pretty blurry, it's hard to pinpoint right now. This makes my plan all the more important.

So, I found this study on AAS use for muscle injury: http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/27/1/2.abstract
And while I know that I don't want to treat this with prednisolone or cortisone, I'm not interested in deca either because of the possibility of testing positive for up to a year. I have plans to go into the military in the future.

I also ruled out Winny even though it's a favorite of sprinters because of this study: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...O;2-B/abstract

And after I read this study on Anavar: http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/con...3c6e08a627fd3d
I felt confident that this would be a comparatively safe and effective course of action.

As you can see, I've tried like hell to really do my research before asking questions.

My goal is simply to recover from injuries and get back on track. I have no interest or intent to "bulk up." In fact, I'd prefer to keep mass gain to a minimum.

My plan is to take 40mg of Anavar a day for 30 days.

I will take 300mg of alpha lipoic acid a day, along with fish oil, 1g of L-Carnitine, 1 Raw One Multi, and 5000iu of Vitamin D a day.

At the end of the 30 days, I plan to use Primordial Performance's TRS as a post cycle therapy stacked with Novedex XT.

The PCT is where I'm most confused, I've read articles and posts that swear up and down that Novaldex and Clomid are actually counter productive for PCT, and I've read articles and posts saying they are completely necessary.

Mind you, in none of the medical studies I've found did they use a PCT on the subjects.

My greatest concern, however, is causing any permanent damage to myself. My T levels aren't so great to begin with. As I said, I am 26. My total T is usually right around 400ng/dl and my Free T is usually 10.0, with little fluctuation. This is probably a result of my endurance training since endurance athletes do tend to have lower T, but I've been warned by my doc that mine is unusually low for my age.

I believe that taking ALA everyday and the short duration of my planned cycle will minimize the stress on my liver, but since I have never taken any AAS, I'm not sure how my body will respond to it. What I don't want is to end up with even lower T levels and need to be on TRT for the rest of my life.

This is also why I'm planning to use BTG Anavar because I don't want to buy "fake" Anavar and it actually be something like Danabol, or some other compound that would cause more shutdown.

I really appreciate all and any help, advice, or guidance. Any recommendations or tweaks you think I need to make to my plan. I'm open to new ideas. Thank you in advance.

[HawaiianPride.]

Nice intro, welcome.

So you are planning on utilizing Oxandrolone strictly for healing/protein synthesis?

[mav6]

Thanks HawaiianPride!

Yes, I'm planning to use Oxandrolone mainly for healing. I'm sure it will help with my performance as well, and I sure wouldn't mind that. I was running a 4.42 40yd before I broke my metatarsals, I hope to get back to those numbers sooner than later. Hopefully the addition of Anavar will help speed my recovery to original performance levels as well.

I'd like to keep mass gain to a minimum though. It's a bitch when you're cutting weight and then you get into single digit BF and you know that at that point you have to lose muscle if you're going to lose anymore weight.

I picked Oxandrolone because it was well researched in use with burn patients who had muscle damage, it appears to cause minimal shutdown of T production, minimal impact on the HTPA, and it clears your system relatively fast.

I realize that deca is probably the best choice for healing, but I don't want to risk a positive drug test for a year, and I've read that even just 100mg of deca will shut down your natural T production.

[HawaiianPride.]

Minimal shutdown at minimal dosages... keep that in mind. PCT is required regardless of dosing and reasonable duration.

No steroid is the "best" choice for healing but some can certainly assist in the process.

I usually don't condone the use of oral only, no matter the goals. So I won't advise you anything but I'm curious; what do you have proposed as a cycle?

[zoltans4]

should be pretty easy to tell supra spinatus injury to lat, although doubt its the lat more likely a stabalizer like teres or teres minor.
hold a small weight in your hand and slowly abduct your arm all the way to your head. record any pain in that arch would mean supra spinatus injury or ligament impingement.

[mav6]

Zoltans, raising my arm from parallel to overhead hurts like hell as does bending forward at the lumbar region. It's off to left side, about 6 inches below the scapula.

HawaiianPride, I know that there's no "best" or "ideal" steroid, but I felt like the risk to benefit ratio for Anavar was the most favorable.

The plan for a cycle was
40mg of Anavar every day for 30 days
PCT of Primordial Performance's TRS stacked with Novedex XT
I might add in PP's TCF-1 also to the PCT. I hear guys saying good things about it.

Is there something wrong with oral only? I based my cycle off the dosing in a study of burn patients who had muscle damage. They didn't even use a PCT in those studies. I actually was debating if 40mg was too high. Some studies went as high as 50mg a day, but I saw other studies that were done with 10mg a day.

I also plan to take alpha lipoic acid the whole time, and I'm considering adding Liver Juice just to make sure the toxicity doesn't cause any problems.

[HawaiianPride.]

Studies can only say so much.

From personal experience, I will tell you 40mg of Var a day for 30 days will suppress you. And OTC restoration agents will not be enough to bounce you back. You'll need actual SERMS to fully restore your endogenous testosterone levels.

Nolva with TCF-1 will probably be enough. Liver Juice is good too..

[mav6]

Well, I would trust personal experience over the studies in this case, like I said, none of them used a PCT, but then again, when you're dealing with someone who has been burned so bad that their muscle is actually burned, I suppose a proper PCT is the least of their worries.

If 30 days at 40mg is enough to cause suppression, do you think it's also enough to stimulate the muscle healing I'm looking for? I was worried that was maybe too low a dose to do anything, but if it's enough to cause suppression, I'm thinking that it's a moderate dose then.

I see all these dosing protocols for Nolva like 50/40/30/20/10, but would it be necessary to run Nolva for 5 weeks after just 30 days of Var?

[mav6]

And thanks for the help on the PCT, I appreciate the heads up. I hear alot of great things about PP's TRS, but it sounded almost too easy.

[TKO Performance]

I would advise a cycle of Anavar only at 40-50mg/day for 6-8 weeks. You will not see full benefits in 30 days. Some guys have even run for 10 weeks (I would not recommend running an oral for that long) as they claimed that gains continued past the 8 week mark.

Anavar is less toxic than many others, but it is still a 17aa, meaning its hepatoxic. You need to run liver support while on (Liverjuice, Liv52, Milk Thistle, etc.).

You need to run PCT. I would suggest either Clomid at 50/50/50 or Nolva at 20/20/20 (mg/day for each week of a three week course of PCT). Start PCT right after your last day on the Anavar.

Some guys get libido issues with Anavar, so I would have some Tribulus and Avena Sativa on hand in case these manifest.

I cannot say that Anavar will offer the muscle healing you are seeking. The majority of research concerning the healing ability of Anavar has been centered around its increase in collagen synthesis due to a bump in progesterone. There is also a slight bump in estrogen due to the proxy stimulation of estrogen production by the progesterone. Estrogen is vital in the anti inflammatory response, which will reduce pain and allow for better blood flow in and out of an injured area. These properties are most often linked to healing of tendons and connective tissue rather than muscles. I simply want you to be making a proper, informed decision.

[FuzzyPeaches o.O]

Mav I agree that only runnin it for 30 days won't be enough time for your goals. I would consider 6 weeks and running the nolva at 30/20/20 along with the TCF-1 should be sufficient for your PCT.

[mav6]

I would advise a cycle of Anavar only at 40-50mg/day for 6-8 weeks. You will not see full benefits in 30 days. Some guys have even run for 10 weeks (I would not recommend running an oral for that long) as they claimed that gains continued past the 8 week mark.

Anavar is less toxic than many others, but it is still a 17aa, meaning its hepatoxic. You need to run liver support while on (Liverjuice, Liv52, Milk Thistle, etc.).

You need to run PCT. I would suggest either Clomid at 50/50/50 or Nolva at 20/20/20 (mg/day for each week of a three week course of PCT). Start PCT right after your last day on the Anavar.

Some guys get libido issues with Anavar, so I would have some Tribulus and Avena Sativa on hand in case these manifest.

I cannot say that Anavar will offer the muscle healing you are seeking. The majority of research concerning the healing ability of Anavar has been centered around its increase in collagen synthesis due to a bump in progesterone. There is also a slight bump in estrogen due to the proxy stimulation of estrogen production by the progesterone. Estrogen is vital in the anti inflammatory response, which will reduce pain and allow for better blood flow in and out of an injured area. These properties are most often linked to healing of tendons and connective tissue rather than muscles. I simply want you to be making a proper, informed decision.

Thanks TKO, I only chose 30 days as the length because that's what I had been seeing in studies. I take from your suggestion for a longer cycle that Anavar, like GHRP, works better over longer terms because it builds up a residual amount in your body? I kind of liked the idea of 30 days because I figured it was short enough that I probably wouldn't experience negative sides or substantial shut down.

What if you did a lower dose, like say 20mg a day, but you ran it for 8 weeks? Would that be effective due to the length, yet cause less shutdown because the dose is lower?

I intended to take ALA and I have a bottle of NOW Foods Liver Detoxifier on hand as well. I thought I would add that in if my blood tests came back with any weird numbers.

The PCT is still a tough topic, I have no doubt that running clomid or novaldex works, but on the ************ forums, I read a recommendation for a guy doing 50mg Anavar everyday for 8 weeks only needed to take "Macca?" (not sure if I spelled that right) for his PCT, and that clomid and novaldex were overkill. It seems there is alot of debate and opinions on PCT.

I have a full bottle of NOW Foods Tribulus, but I probably wouldn't even know if I was having libido issues since my girlfriend is a cold hearted bitch

I'm not sure if it will heal the muscle either, but collagen synthesis wouldn't be a bad thing for me either, I've got a torn lisfranc and a torn ATF. Not to mention I've got weird shit all up and down my spine from 4 years of ruck marching with too much weight and bad form.

[TKO Performance]

For a man 20mg/day is probably not going to be enough to do anything. Based on recommended dosing by the manufacturer 30mg/day is about minimum for an adult male. Research has shown that it took 30-50mg/day to halt AIDS related muscle wasting. I'd advise 40-50mg/day as the low threshold. Some guys have taken 80-100mg/day. After that there is no further benefit based on all the evidence I've read.

There is no legitimate debate over PCT. I agree that taking Nolva at 40/40/20/20 and Clomid at 100/50/50/50 simultaneously like you would do coming off a test cycle is way overkill. However, Anavar is suppressive. One member here said that after four weeks he was down to 2% of natural test production, and that was backed up with blood work. You aren't going to get natural production back up 98% with anything other than Clomid or Nolva. I simply would not take the risk.

Sounds like a new girlfriend is in order as well!

[mav6]

For a man 20mg/day is probably not going to be enough to do anything. Based on recommended dosing by the manufacturer 30mg/day is about minimum for an adult male. Research has shown that it took 30-50mg/day to halt AIDS related muscle wasting. I'd advise 40-50mg/day as the low threshold. Some guys have taken 80-100mg/day. After that there is no further benefit based on all the evidence I've read.

There is no legitimate debate over PCT. I agree that taking Nolva at 40/40/20/20 and Clomid at 100/50/50/50 simultaneously like you would do coming off a test cycle is way overkill. However, Anavar is suppressive. One member here said that after four weeks he was down to 2% of natural test production, and that was backed up with blood work. You aren't going to get natural production back up 98% with anything other than Clomid or Nolva. I simply would not take the risk.

Sounds like a new girlfriend is in order as well!

Ok, that makes sense to me. There's very little consistency among the research studies available. One study doses high, another very low. And almost every study is for a different length. 40mg sounds like a good starting place to me, I'm usually very responsive/sensitive to medications.

Could you gauge your PCT based on bloodwork? Say, you end your cycle, get blood work, see how suppressed you are, and then start Nolva, then in 3 weeks check your blood again to determine how much longer you need to continue taking Nolva?

I mean, Nolva seems pretty cheap, I can't think of a reason not to take it, but I'm sure there's a limit as to how long before it's not doing anything else for you.

As for the girlfriend, we opposite shifts, she has a real job, and I work in a warehouse hating life. I think I need to keep her since she's covering the rent. What can I say, I'm a freeloader hahaha

[meat&2veg]

Good read! I wish you the best of luck Mav6 and hope your researched decision pays off. Some great advice off the guys on here and as said above by HP they are proven by personal experience.
Take the great advice and add it to what you know and have understood about Oxandrolone and again I wish you all the best!!!

P.S Keep the bitch if shes paying the rent!!!lol

[mav6]

P.S Keep the bitch if shes paying the rent!!!lol

She's not too bad of a cook either. I get home from work after she's already left for work, I open the fridge, and there's always something good to eat.


Concerning PCT, would taking HCG during the cycle be a wise choice to prevent shutdown?

I'm a little worried about using Nolva and Clomid because I've read they can cause ocular toxicity which can lead to cataracts. I unfortunately have an inoperable cataract due to high doses of cortisone. So, I was considering using Toremifene as an alternative SERM. Does anyone have an opinion on Toremifene or any experience with it? There's very little discussion about Toremifene, it seems like Nolva and Clomid are much more popular.

[mav6]

Ugh... Went to the ortho yesterday, he's saying my foot and tibia still have unhealed fractures. What the hell is wrong with me that in 10 weeks I could have fractures that aren't healed?

Would it be possible/advisable/safe to run HGH with Anavar? Or perhaps really ambitious, HGH/Var/Deca? I'm just fed up and at the end of my rope with these injuries.

I would assume HCG would be very important to run with Deca since that can shut you down with the first dose?

[TKO Performance]

What was his recommendation for getting the fractures to heal? 10 weeks is rather excessive IMO. A typical fracture will heal in 4-6 weeks. If it's a stress fracture and you are continuing to load the area that is the problem. If it's a destabilized fracture then the doctor should advise pinning it in place to get it to mend properly. I'm curious to see what his take on your condition was.

Truthfully I don't think I'd advise taking HGH at 26. Your natural levels at that age are still pretty good. HGH is for people over 40 IMO, unless you have a natural deficiency.

I'd advise against Deca as well. It has a much higher chance of side effects than Anavar, and from a healing standpoint the two are about equal. You are only going to get so much help from either. Trying to effectively supercharge the process by taking both won't work the way you're thinking it will. Plus, when coming off you may get a slowdown in collagen synthesis due to natural progesterone rebound.

Injuries can be very frustrating. It took 5 months for my tennis elbow to resolve, and shortly after it did I wound up with tendonitis in my wrist, which I'm still getting over. You have to dedicate yourself to getting better, doing what you can do until you are 100% again, modifying your workouts as needed, and try to stay positive.

[mav6]

What was his recommendation for getting the fractures to heal? 10 weeks is rather excessive IMO. A typical fracture will heal in 4-6 weeks. If it's a stress fracture and you are continuing to load the area that is the problem. If it's a destabilized fracture then the doctor should advise pinning it in place to get it to mend properly. I'm curious to see what his take on your condition was.

Truthfully I don't think I'd advise taking HGH at 26. Your natural levels at that age are still pretty good. HGH is for people over 40 IMO, unless you have a natural deficiency.

I'd advise against Deca as well. It has a much higher chance of side effects than Anavar, and from a healing standpoint the two are about equal. You are only going to get so much help from either. Trying to effectively supercharge the process by taking both won't work the way you're thinking it will. Plus, when coming off you may get a slowdown in collagen synthesis due to natural progesterone rebound.

Injuries can be very frustrating. It took 5 months for my tennis elbow to resolve, and shortly after it did I wound up with tendonitis in my wrist, which I'm still getting over. You have to dedicate yourself to getting better, doing what you can do until you are 100% again, modifying your workouts as needed, and try to stay positive.

His recommendation was to wait 3 more weeks and see how it's doing. He said my bloodwork all came back ok. My cortisol levels are elevated, but that's to be expected with an injury, my calcium, vit D, were all within normal ranges. Thyroid function was fine.

He said he's actually never seen a 26 year old male with such slow healing. Especially since the first 6 weeks I had been in a cast and on crutches.

I already tried GHRP and it doesn't seem like it did anything, that's the only reason I was considering HGH, but I suppose that's not going to be much use in this case either. And I understand the reason not to stack Deca and Anavar.

I totally agree with you on frustrating injuries, and I even expected this thing to hurt for months especially considering all the ligament tears. But I'm really disappointed that the fracture isn't even closed yet.

I cannot, for the life of me, think of a reason why this bone isn't healing though. I don't know how I could stay off it more unless I started hanging upside down on my pullup bar.

[TKO Performance]

I would do some research on my own and see if his quoted healing time is typical or atypical. If its atypical I'd see if there were any reasons that might be the case. Are you seeing a Specialist or a GP? If its a GP might be time to get a referral for a Specialist, look for a Sports Medicine guy.

Some of us may have certain body parts that heal slower than others. When it comes to regular injuries I'm slightly super human. My blood clots twice as fast as the average person (I've had that verified when testing prior to a surgery I had years back). I recovered from a broken Tibia in three weeks when I was younger. They took an xray before putting me in a walking cast and found the fracture healed. It was supposed to be 4-6 weeks healing time. Lacerations, fractures, even sprains all seem to heal very fast.

But I never suspected that a tendon would take so long to heal, and be so debilitating. They just don't heal on me like everything else seems to. Maybe your bones are the same way.

[zoltans4]

I would do some research on my own and see if his quoted healing time is typical or atypical. If its atypical I'd see if there were any reasons that might be the case. Are you seeing a Specialist or a GP? If its a GP might be time to get a referral for a Specialist, look for a Sports Medicine guy.

Some of us may have certain body parts that heal slower than others. When it comes to regular injuries I'm slightly super human. My blood clots twice as fast as the average person (I've had that verified when testing prior to a surgery I had years back). I recovered from a broken Tibia in three weeks when I was younger. They took an xray before putting me in a walking cast and found the fracture healed. It was supposed to be 4-6 weeks healing time. Lacerations, fractures, even sprains all seem to heal very fast.

But I never suspected that a tendon would take so long to heal, and be so debilitating. They just don't heal on me like everything else seems to. Maybe your bones are the same way.

bones have blood supply, tendons and ligaments do not and are always the worst on healing. Ive dealt with lots of people with foot fractures that take a loooooong time to heal. double edge sword- doc says don't put weight on it, but weight bearing increases bone formation and blood supply, feet are naturally poor at circulation thats why feet swell, show edema first, heal slow and a diabetics nightmare. Tibia on the hand... hmm probably the same leg as the foot right?

[mav6]

I'm seeing the same ortho the Pittsburgh Steelers and Penguins use. He's already said that my healing is extremely atypical for the bone that was broken as well as my age. I'm very confident in his abilities, and he's offered other options like operating and putting pins into it or going in and repairing the tendons and ligaments, but as I expressed to him, I'd rather leave surgery as a last resort. I suspect if when I see him again in 3 weeks it's not healing well, he'll probably tell me it needs surgery.

I wish I had some super human healing powers, but unfortunately even cuts takes weeks to heal for me. I would think logically that there must be something wrong with me internally, but I've been referred out to an endocrinologist and he says he can't find a thing outside of normal ranges except my T is low for my age, but still in the normal range overall. I just have a hard time thinking that low T could be the one and only cause behind all of this.

[LGM]

Just a thought Mav, but have they checked for diabetes? Thats the only thing off the top of my head that would slow healing.

Welcome, btw. And best wishes for a speedy recovery.

[Bonaparte]

For your goals, I would recommend HGH or GH boosting peptides (GHRP + mod GRF [1-29]). The one in bold is crucial to the stack and the reason why you didn't get results from the GHRP by itself.
The IGF-1 produced from GH will repair any injury better than AAS, and it is safer and doesn't require any support supplements.
Let me know if you want some more info on this, particularly the legal peptides, since there is already plenty of info available on synthetic HGH.

[mav6]

Just a thought Mav, but have they checked for diabetes? Thats the only thing off the top of my head that would slow healing.

Welcome, btw. And best wishes for a speedy recovery.

Fuuuuu...shit Sigh... Hadn't thought of that, but you make an excellent point. Thanks for the insight. I've had a ton of bloodwork, but I don't think I've ever been tested specifically for diabetes. That would make sense why nothing seems to ever heal. Would that have shown up on a comprehensive panel or is there a special test for it?

For your goals, I would recommend HGH or GH boosting peptides (GHRP + mod GRF [1-29]). The one in bold is crucial to the stack and the reason why you didn't get results from the GHRP by itself.
The IGF-1 produced from GH will repair any injury better than AAS, and it is safer and doesn't require any support supplements.
Let me know if you want some more info on this, particularly the legal peptides, since there is already plenty of info available on synthetic HGH.

I've already done Ipamorelin stacked with Sermorelin for the past 9, going on 10 weeks. I do 100mcg of each 3 times a day. Upon waking, midday, and before bed. Approximately 8 hours apart. I haven't noticed a thing at all. DatBtrue squared me away, but now I'm looking into AAS as a last resort.

[TKO Performance]

I agree that I'd consider surgery as a last resort. Even with the improved techniques they use today there is still formation of scar tissue and the possibility that it won't ever really be 100% after an injury. A fractured bone should heal back stronger than it was before the fracture.

Most doctors will not operate on tendons, unless the damage is severe (rupture or total tear). The problem is that if they create more scar tissue than you had before you run a much higher risk of future damage. Occasionally if the pain is severe they may agree to parse off the bad fibers, but that will leave you with a smaller tendon than you had originally, which is obviously going to be more injury prone.

Ligaments can sometimes be surgically repaired, or reinforced with synthetics. There is also complete replacement with cadaver ligaments.

I would assume that if they did a blood panel on you that showed your test level they would also know your insulin level, and other risk factors for diabetes. Still it couldn't hurt to ask.

[mav6]

Diabetes is a negative. Blood sugar was 90, which I suppose is getting towards the high side, but I'm apparently ok.

So, now I'm debating "pulsing" Anavar. I've read that pulsing orals can actually make them more effective, less toxic, and less suppressing.

I would propose pulsing Anavar at 80mg EOD for 6 weeks.
On off days, I would dose up the liver support since taking them both together can diminish the benefits of Anavar.

And I'm thinking about toremifene for PCT.

Nolvadex and Clomid really make me uncomfortable because of all the negative sides, especially the ocular toxicity. I already have a cataract from excessive prednisolone use, I don't need to make things worse with tamoxifen.

Is there a better PCT product out there that I'm unaware of?

[mav6]

bump

[TKO Performance]

Try the PCT forum. I know there are others, even some herbals, but I'd get first hand verification with blood results that show they work before considering it.

[powerws]

Great read! Welcome and I hope you recover quickly.

[westcoastriot]

Thanks for the discussion guys! Im just going to be starting my first cycle of Anavar for different reasons, but it looks like now, I might just postpone it for a few more days while I dig up some more information. Im curious to hear what TKO has to say about your idea of EOD dosing at 80mg/d. Glad to hear you don't have diabetes!

[mav6]

I've been running some tests in a lab on oxandrin. I'm thinking because of the half life of oxandrolone, it may be a better choice to dose higher, much higher, like 120mg every 2 days. The benefit of pulsing is that your body has time in between doses to start producing its own hormones again. So, more time between doses is preferable, but anavar has a fairly long half life life compared to other orals, so I think more time between pulses may be necessary. More importantly, wow there's alot of fake gear out there. Buyer beware.

In any case, I think toremifene is the only SERM worth considering. After dealing with a few pharmacists in the lab, I don't think I'd touch tamoxifen with a stick.