Newbie with questions

[CFforged]

First off, my stats:
Age-30
Height-6'2"
Weight-197lbs
BF-16% (last time i checked, but injured lower back 5 weeks ago and put on a few unhealthy pounds)
Training exp-2 years bodybuilding style workouts, 2 years CrossFit and competive olympic-style weightlifting
Diet-strict Zone (17 blocks, x3 fat), about 80% paleo quality foods (still drink milk, some cheese, legumes, etc) Macros come out to 40% protein, 40% fat, 20% carb

Doing my research and plan on doing beginner cycle of Test En only like below.

Cycle
Week 1-10 (possibly 12?) 500mg Test En weekly

PCT
Clomid starting 14 days after last Test injection
Day 1: 300mg
Days 2-11: 100mg per day
Days 12-21: 50mg per day

This all makes sense to be, but I am terrified of Gyno. At first I was planning on having Nolva on hand in case Gyno set in. But now I'm thinking I might want to run Nolva during the whole Test cycle as a preventative measure. Is this a good idea? If I were to do that what would the dosage/timing look like? Will this affect the PCT I have planned above?

Any advice is greatly appreciated

[FuzzyPeaches o.O]

Having an AI on hand is always a good idea and only needs to be started if signs appear. You will not wake up 1 morning with gyno, its a process. If you start to experience signs then start otherwise not necessary, especially on a cycle like this.
Your PCT needs work to be polite and personally I think you need to put in some more time b4 you consider a cycle.

[zoltans4]

there are threads on prevention and stuff on here, but you should know doing nolva straight through the cycle can hurt gains but some do it and should be done if gyno starts to continue nolva through the cycle.
here is a good read:
http://forums.steroid.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15

things like a good AI like dex is probably a better plan to use at low doses (recommended by vets on here) of .25mg eod or .5mg 2x weekly for prevention. I have also read numerous threads about people starting AI a week or two prior to cycle in those low dosages and continue through the cycle with them.
As it has been made clear on here, you aren't gonna know your bodies response to gyno till you get going on your cycle, so in the end it is up to you to gather all the advice and knowledge and implement how you want to prevent gyno if at all.

[zoltans4]

also it is a concensus here to use 2 SERMs for PTC, clomid and nolva. so I would read that PCT thread and Pheedno's PTC thread here:
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=94626

and get the nolva for ptc anyway, plus you want it on hand if gyno starts anyway.

[CFforged]

The PCT (the whole stack actually) was found on one of the newbie links here in the forum http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...78#post3167378

I'm certainly not expecting to poke around here for a day, assume I know what's up and start injecting myself. Thanks for the responses so far. I should have clarified in my first post that I likely won't do this first cycle till maybe 6-12 months from now. I want to make sure I'm fully educated and have quality gear before I start.

I'm more interested in strength and performance gains than anything else, though I'd be lying if I said I wasn't at all interested in physique. Is a Test only cycle appropriate for that?

And along the line of the first point, what would a typical Nolva/Clomid PCT look like?

[CFforged]

Did some more reading on PCT. So does something like this seem more appropriate?

Day 1-30- .25mg L-dex + 100mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva

[FuzzyPeaches o.O]

Bro you are guna do 500mg/wk of test e. 30 days of clomid @ 100mg is not necessary. If I were you and I just did 12 weeks at 500 I would wait 14 days after I finished and run nolva @ 40/20/20/20 and clomid @ 100/50/50/25. I would get the Ldex just to cover my bases but I doubt I would use it.

[spiketannin]

Bro you are guna do 500mg/wk of test e. 30 days of clomid @ 100mg is not necessary. If I were you and I just did 12 weeks at 500 I would wait 14 days after I finished and run nolva @ 40/20/20/20 and clomid @ 100/50/50/25. I would get the Ldex just to cover my bases but I doubt I would use it.

+1 also you should get that bf down to atleast 12% b4 u start ruunin the test

[CFforged]

Thanks for the responses guys, I'm still learning and this is good stuff to know. Like I mentioned before, I'm a ways off from starting a cycle as I know I still have some work to do. I'm glad I starting researching this stuff now though. Thanks again

[FuzzyPeaches o.O]

Thanks for the responses guys, I'm still learning and this is good stuff to know. Like I mentioned before, I'm a ways off from starting a cycle as I know I still have some work to do. I'm glad I starting researching this stuff now though. Thanks again

No prob

[CFforged]

Is the L-Dex kept on hand in case Gyno sets in? If I had all 3 products on hand (Nolva, Clomid & L-Dex), in your experience which is best at reversing Gyno.

I know everybody is diferent, but after reading study after study I'm interested in hearing some first hand experiences.

[FuzzyPeaches o.O]

It all depends on the situation each have their strengths and weakness. Personally I like Aromasin then Ldex then nolva when it comes to estro

[CFforged]

Seems like the more I learn the more questions I have.

In regards to estro control (my previous gyno concern included), I'm seeing more and more write ups about running an AI and/or HCG during a cycle to prevent or limit side effects.

Am I just being paranoid? Or will my first cycle of Test E only be so simple that the AI and HCG won't be necessary?

[FuzzyPeaches o.O]

Never say never kind of thing. You should be fine without one. BUT it is always better to have it and not need it as opposed to needing it and not having it.

[mav6]

Seems like the more I learn the more questions I have.

In regards to estro control (my previous gyno concern included), I'm seeing more and more write ups about running an AI and/or HCG during a cycle to prevent or limit side effects.

Am I just being paranoid? Or will my first cycle of Test E only be so simple that the AI and HCG won't be necessary?

Nothing is guaranteed. It's best to keep things like AIs, HCG, and SERMs on hand just in case anything starts to go wrong. Better to have it available immediately than need it and have to wait 2 weeks to order it.

Forgive me if I'm repeating this, but I didn't see anyone else say it, but running Nolva during your cycle is a bad idea because you need some estrogen. It's only a problem when it gets to be too much estrogen.

What are your goals? Are you training for the games? Powerlifting? Weightlifting?

[CFforged]

Thanks for the responses guys, this is great stuff. When/if the time finally comes I'll be sure to have it all on hand so I'm prepared.

As far as goals, I'm mostly interested in strength/performance gains, especially with my o-lifting. I don't really have games aspirations, but I do love to compete. I really just want to get as fit as possible, and I certainly wouldn't hate it if my physique improved.

I became interested in AAS because I seem to have hit a wall in the last 6 months. My times in WODs have kind of stalled, I'm still making stength gains but it's at a crawling pace. My body also just seems softer now, even though I'm working my ass off and have my diet dialed in better than ever. I'm actually going to get my hormone levels tested soon because I suspect my test levels are low.

[mav6]

Thanks for the responses guys, this is great stuff. When/if the time finally comes I'll be sure to have it all on hand so I'm prepared.

As far as goals, I'm mostly interested in strength/performance gains, especially with my o-lifting. I don't really have games aspirations, but I do love to compete. I really just want to get as fit as possible, and I certainly wouldn't hate it if my physique improved.

I became interested in AAS because I seem to have hit a wall in the last 6 months. My times in WODs have kind of stalled, I'm still making stength gains but it's at a crawling pace. My body also just seems softer now, even though I'm working my ass off and have my diet dialed in better than ever. I'm actually going to get my hormone levels tested soon because I suspect my test levels are low.

If you're working harder, eating better, and doing worse, it sounds like you're overreaching/overtraining a bit. I would recommend getting your cortisol levels checked in addition to your T and Free T levels. You might want to have your cholesterol levels checked as well. Just to be safe. Sometimes when guys get really deep into overtraining the constant release of glucocorticoids starts to really screw with the LDL/HDL balance.

CF has a real tendency to burn people out. Intensity and constant variation put a demand on your CNS that over time can really dig a hole for you. You would not believe the number of CFers on steroids. It's like the dirty little secret that no one wants to talk about.

I'm guessing from your handle you train at CF Forged, so you're in or near San Diego. There are a ton of naturopaths in and around San Diego. Before you go turn to AAS, it would be good to get an idea of why you're not feeling dialed in. An adrenal stress index would likely be sufficient to establish your cortisol levels and circadian rhythm. Also, cortisol can really sap your T levels. You could have what many people wrongly refer to as "adrenal fatigue," but it's really just adrenal dysfunction because more likely, you're adrenals are overworking early in the day and underproducing later in the day.

In the meantime, you might try some carnitine-L-tartrate to help your CNS, and maybe take some phosphatidylserine pre workout. If you really think it's your T levels, you could try running Primordial Performance's TRS with their TCF-1, and if that makes you feel much better, then that would probably point to T problems. However, if you have insurance, it's probably cheaper to just see your doc and get the bloodwork done.

What's your diet like? Lots of fruit? How about sleep? Hard time falling asleep? Wake up multiple times? What's your training look like? Multiple WODs a day? Are you very active outside your workouts? Are most of your WODs over 10 minutes? When you do strength work, how often do you max out? All these things can really contribute to exactly what you're describing.

[CFforged]

Definitely some things to consider there, thanks. Luckily I do have insurance so I'll be arranging some bloodwork soon.

What's your diet like? Lots of fruit? How about sleep? Hard time falling asleep? Wake up multiple times? What's your training look like? Multiple WODs a day? Are you very active outside your workouts? Are most of your WODs over 10 minutes? When you do strength work, how often do you max out? All these things can really contribute to exactly what you're describing.

Diet is strict Zone (17 blocks w/ x3 fat) here is a sample day of food:

Breakfast Smoothie
raw whole eggs
blueberries
frozen strawberries
peanut butter

Lunch
chicken breast
apple
green veggies
almonds

Pre-WOD Snack
turkey breast
tomato
almonds or cashews

PWO Shake
protein powder
waxy maize powder

Dinner
some kind of meat (beef, chicken, turkey, fish, etc)
assorted veggies
legumes
avacado or olives

Bedtime Snack
whole milk
peanut butter or cashews

I drink 1 cup of black coffee in morning and a TON of water all day long.

Sleep is a tough one. I have real problems falling asleep, once I'm asleep though I usually will get 7-8 hours a night. Although it's not always restfull. I've recently started taking Melatonin at night and it has been helping some.

My week of training usually consists of 3 days on, 1 off, 2 on, 1 off. Once or twice a week I may do multiple WODs in a day. Usually a strength WOD followed by heavy metcon immediately after, or a lighter longer metcon several hours later. Very rarely will I do a WOD longer than 20 minutes. I probably only do a long chipper 1-2 times in a month, if that. I try and do strength work twice a week, one day to work on pure strength and the other would be heavy skill work with the o-lifts. I would maybe only test a 1RM once a month, I usually keep reps at 3-5.

Outside of the gym my week is not all that active, I work a desk job 40 hours a week.

There are other factors that make me suspect low test levels, low sex drive, lethargic, bouts of depression....I hit the gym as much as I do because I love it, but it is a battle to get there everyday. I'm always tired, but when they count down 3-2-1 go I can usually shut it out and do work. When I think about it though I've had these kind of symptoms most my life. Then again, I might just be trying to convince myself to do a cycle

[mav6]

Well, your fruit intake isn't horrible but I think I'd get rid of the apple and legumes for sure. I think Coach Rut called apples "sugar bags." You should check out some of Lalonde's stuff on fructose. Also, I appreciate the convenience of a post workout shake, but if you can do whole food, you'd probably see an improvement, especially if you can get some sweet potato in there. At 6'2" and 200 lbs, why are you eating so little though?

If your goal is to lean out, there are better ways. CPWO is a great tool for leaning out, we can get into that if that is your goal.

If you can do it, ditch the coffee. It has been shown to spike cortisol, which you don't need any more of.

Sleep is my specialty. I am an expert in sleep having been a former insomniac who typically only slept once every 3-4 days. I kid you not, I seriously went on sleeping every 3-4 days for over a year.

Have you read Lights Out? If not, go buy a copy, read it, and start following recommendations. What I'm about to tell you is going to sound crazy, but trust me, you need it.
1. No computer or tv 2 hours before bed
2. You need black out curtains in your bedroom, you should not be able to see your hand in front of your face
3. Sleep with ear plugs in
4. If you can, turn of the breaker to your room, if you can't, then put everything on powerstrips and turn everything off. There should be no little red standby lights or glowing lights in your room
5. Get a battery powered alarm clock and put it out of arm's reach from your bed, make sure it doesn't glow red, green, or whatever color. Brookstone has some good travel alarm clocks that you can't see in the dark

Also, stop taking melatonin. It can downregulate your own natural production, plus you're probably building a tolerance to it. What you should take is raw organic honey or creamed honey. You sound like you have some adrenal dysfunction going on. Your cortisol level is probably low before bed. Eat a tablespoon of honey right before bed. (people call this the hibernation diet) You can add cinnamon if you don't like the taste. Make sure it is quality honey or else you'll get the shits. I recommend Trader Joe's for honey. Creamed honey seems to work better for me, but raw organic honey should work just fine too. Also, about an hour before bed, mix one tsp of Natural Calm with warm to hot water. Athletes commonly deplete their magnesium stores, this should help out, plus it can boost your T a little.

You'll need to stick with routine for a while for it to kick in and start really clearing things up. My #1 Rule though: an hour of sleep before midnight is worth two after midnight. Rule #2 sleep as much as you can without getting yourself fired or divorced.

Looking at your training, try scaling back a bit. I know this is going to sound counter, but if you're training hard and you're looking soft, you're overtraining, training less may actually make you lean out, I kid you not. Poliquin has noted this a few times.

I would probably never do multiple WODs in a day ever again. Most heavy metcons should be around 5 minutes. Look at CF Football's programming, that's about as close to overtraining as you can toe the line without going over, but you sound like you're already a little overtrained so you'll need to get back to baseline before taking on CF Football.

In any case, I would recommend switching your programming to 3 strength days a week and 2 metcons. In fact, you might consider stepping away from the metcons altogether for a bit. Try Wendler 531 for a few cycles, I guarantee your Fran time goes down. And I would not max out nearly that often. You've got about 6 true max efforts in you per year and that's if your periodization is spot on. Try to max out more than that and all you're getting is your max that day, but not an accurate measurement of your true potential.

Low sex drive, lethargy, depression, all signs of overtraining. I can't remember who said it but you should be going into workout energized, not getting energized from your workout.

Even if you're set on doing a cycle, you'll get more out of by not going into it overtrained. Sure, AAS can allow you to work at a higher capacity than you normally could, but you'll get better gains and results if you're not overtrained and you're dialed in in all aspects.

[CFforged]

That's a wealth of info Mav, thanks for sharing that!

The "Lights Out" book was actually recommended to me when I did my Level 1 cert, I'm definitely going to grab a copy. Yeah, the Melatonin isn't doing what I had hoped. It does make me sleepy, but also anxious at the same time. Does that make any sense? In any case, it hasn't improved my quality of sleep much.

I've sort of known that the fruit and PWO shake weren't ideal, but the convenience of them won that battle. As far as the amount of food I'm eating, it's kind of dificult for me to eat huge meals. That's why I usually opt for the more calorie dense food items and upped my fat blocks x3. Meal sizes are smaller but I'm still taking in adequate calories, perhaps I'm shooting myself in the foot though.

It is definitely time to scale back the training a bit. I just finished 4 days on and I'm just feeling wrecked. I may take the whole holiday weekend off and re-evaluate things. You're right, CF Football has some great programming, and I've played with the Wendler method but not consistenly enough to see how it really works for me.

I found a mens clinic locally that does labwork and specializes in TRT. I'm thinking about going to them to get a full panel done, providing my insurance covers it. It's going to depend on what the results say as to whether I will do a cycle or not. The wife is pretty against the idea if my test levels are normal. If I start one though I definitely want to get my BF down to 12% as recommended above, and make sure I'm not overtrained like you suggest.

This is all great stuff man, thanks again.

[mav6]

No problem, I hope it helps.

The melatonin desensitization is common actually. I have an experiment for you to try, but it's kind a pain in the ass. Take 2.25g of GABA. If it makes you sleepy, you have "leaky brain." You'll need to clean up your diet, there's alot of information on it, but basically the blood-brain barrier is damaged. If it does nothing for you, you're healthy. In which case, I recommend trying something like L-theanine, phGABA, or GABAtone to help stimulate your body's own production.


Just to throw out my endorsement for Wendler 531, I had been following CF programming, and alot of times I'd do strength work and a met con afterwards. I switched to following Wendler 531, with some personal modifications. I did shoulder press, front squat, and deadlift as my lifts, and 2 days a week I did sprint work on the track (never anything longer than 400m). My T levels rebounded a bit (400 to 530), and I have really noticeably leaned out. I'm eating more, training less, and suddenly my abs are more defined than ever. In fact, I've even gone off the zone and just started eating "however I feel paleo."

Be careful going to a clinic that specializes in TRT. They also specialize in justifying prescribing TRT which is how they make their money. You'd be better off going to an endocrinologist, just stating your symptoms, and see what he finds. I'm a former med student (dropped out), and I can tell you that once someone tells you, "I think it's ______" It is very difficult to get that initial diagnosis out of your head and assess things objectively.

If you want the best diagnosis, see your endocrinologist and don't bring up TRT until after he's done his tests and made a diagnosis. And before you make the full scale jump to TRT, I'd give a few smaller steps a shot like Primordial Performance's TCF-1 or even their Testosterone Recovery Stack. Just run them solo and see how you feel.

[CFforged]

I was just about to return a phone call to the TRT clinic when I noticed this post. I have to admit to not doing much homework on the subject. But, is TRT a lifelong thing?

Think I'm going to head to the HRT section and do some reading.

[mav6]

Unfortunately yes. I sure someone will try to tell you that it's not a lifelong treatment, but once you start it, your testis will shut down, and then when you've been on it long enough, your testis will atrophy, and they won't be coming back.

I've talked with doctors who are on TRT. They say it's the greatest thing because they feel incredible on it. One friend has a T level of over 3000 ng/dl (not a typo). He can workout, run, etc like he was 18 again. But even he has explained to me, once you get on the TRT ride, there's no getting off of it.

[CFforged]

Definitely a life-changing decision...

I've spoken with the clinic and will have bloodwork done early next week, providing I get back confirmation from my PPO that it's covered. I'll be sure to give an update.

[CFforged]

I've spoken with the clinic and will have bloodwork done early next week, providing I get back confirmation from my PPO that it's covered. I'll be sure to give an update.

Clinic not covered by PPO, so going today to my primary for bloodwork. Results will determine next step, if any...