HIV Wasting - Reason enough to cycle?

[Undercover]

For a quick summary, I was diagnosed with HIV and UC a few months ago and I had lost a lot of weight since (55 lbs). After about a month of starting my HIV meds, the weight loss has stopped. I have gained about 10 lbs back, though I'm sure they're mostly water and fat because I don't see much difference really.

After reading many studies on the matter and the book "Built To Survive" (which is basically research and clinical data written by doctors and HIV+ patients to support testosterone and deca usage for HIV+ patients), I'm convinced I need to gain back lean mass quickly since any new infection could end up putting me in the hospital for months or maybe worse.

So far, I have been unable to gain any support from doctors I've been to regarding starting a steroid cycle. They have all even refused to test my natural testosterone levels to see if I'm on the low side. They said nothing about proper nutrition, exercise, and total lean muscle mass (all essential to HIV+ patients), which really makes me question anything they have to say. They all claimed my HIV+ meds will help me gain back weight, but this is not entirely true and most of the time HIV+ patients end up putting on huge amounts of fat.

The thing is, I don't really need a prescription to get my testosterone or deca. I can get LEGIT steroids easily. I have a friend who will be able to give what I need straight from a pharmacy. I still have to pay for it, maybe have to cut back on a few things but that won't be a problem.

I'm lost to say the least. I feel like there's noone who is willing to actually LISTEN to what I have to say. A lot of doctors have unjustified fear or bias when it comes to steroids. The plan now is to start my own cycle next month, but I'm worried about how I'm going to keep track and get blood work and other things done. Should I just go straight to a doctor and say I'm on steroids?

I need advice, guys. I feel like I'm being dumb starting a cycle against medical advice, but at the same time it doesn't seem fair to me that no doctor is willing to provide me with a legit reason as to why I shouldn't. Also, what are the chances of me being hospitalized this year? Probably on the low side, but it's still a risk I don't want to take. I admit that part of why I'm doing this is to go back to looking the way I used to. It will do wonders to my mental and physical health, if people stop asking me why I look anorexic all of a sudden. Am I being selfish here? Should I just rely on muscle memory and exercise to do their work?

You can tell I'm very confused. I thought maybe here I'd get some real help as to what I should do. Maybe some guidance along the way if I decide to go through with it.

Well, thanks for reading this.

[Vitruvian-Man]

One thought though.... steroids DO suppress your immune system. If you're already prone to getting ill from the concoction of medications that you're already taking for your HIV-regiment, then steroids will only inflame the issue.

It is a very delicate topic, and I do truly feel for you. I have also seen the studies on the mass gaining effects of steroids on HIV+ patients; however, like I said, my major concern would be making my immune system anymore susceptible to illness/infection then it ALREADY is to begin with.

What it really comes down to is do you want to risk this potential issue to gain mass now? Or should you perhaps wait a bit; see how you adjust to your HIV-medications, and then reassess the situation a little further down the road...?

Just some food for thought; hope that helps,

-VM

[FuzzyPeaches o.O]

All Dr's would advise against AAS usage, well 99% would. I think you obviously have a very unique situation and it requires special consideration. With that said I know in medical journals that I have read there have been studies of HIV+ patients given a TRT equivalent dose of Test and had outstanding results, ranging from increased appetite and a significant increase in RBC counts. It has been sometime since I have read such things so I cannot qoute specifics but in my honest opinion I think it could be potentially MORE beneficial to someone with your extraordinary circumstances.

I will look through some of my old school papers and see if I cannot locate these studies I'm referring to. Best of luck with whatever you decide.

[Bonaparte]

One thought though.... steroids DO suppress your immune system. If you're already prone to getting ill from the concoction of medications that you're already taking for your HIV-regiment, then steroids will only inflame the issue.

I don't agree at all. Many get a bit of flu-like symptoms at the start of a cycle, but then are completely healthy until they come off the gear.

Do you have anything showing that AAS lower your immune system while you're on them? And even if they do disrupt the immune system, the huge increase in lean mass would certainly make up for it, which is the main reason they are used with AIDs patients in the first place.

[ReX357]

What if he ran Methandriole along with his cycle? It's a pretty useless steroid but it is known to boost immune system. Would that help?

[SlimmerMe]

Did you rule out HGH?

[CaliburKid]

Yeah wouldn't HGH be a better option? Will HGH compromise the immune system? Hell, and doctor's CAN prescribe such. I would see or inquire about HGH if possible.
Just the ol' 2¢...
I hope you do well in whatever avenue you pursue! HIV can be one of the scariest things to deal with, so I hope it all pans out for you!

[Reed]

I think V man covered it well. Look into other doctors if you can. Do your research too.

I know they utilize anadrol for HIV patients and sometimes doses much higher than what bodybuilders use typically.

[Undercover]

One thought though.... steroids DO suppress your immune system. If you're already prone to getting ill from the concoction of medications that you're already taking for your HIV-regiment, then steroids will only inflame the issue.

It is a very delicate topic, and I do truly feel for you. I have also seen the studies on the mass gaining effects of steroids on HIV+ patients; however, like I said, my major concern would be making my immune system anymore susceptible to illness/infection then it ALREADY is to begin with.

What it really comes down to is do you want to risk this potential issue to gain mass now? Or should you perhaps wait a bit; see how you adjust to your HIV-medications, and then reassess the situation a little further down the road...?

Just some food for thought; hope that helps,

-VM

Thanks. I'm still wondering though if it's really THAT immunosuppressive. Why would they use it on HIV+ patients if it had that much of a detrimental effect?

This is what I read in Built To Survive:

Returning the body’s testosterone production to normal quickly is important for those men whose bodies can produce normal levels of testosterone. When testosterone is low there can be an imbalance in the normal testosterone-to-cortisol relationship that favors cortisol, an immunosuppressive, catabolic hormone, as the dominant hormone. Testosterone and cortisol, in some aspects, are counter-balancing hormones in their effects on the immunesystem and muscle tissue. Reduced testosterone can allow cortisol to depress immune function, and break down muscle tissue. Cortisol depresses T cell production and catabolizes muscle, while testosterone supports healthy T cell metabolism and builds muscle.

HGH is out of the picture because of its costs. I'm 21 and still a student, and insurance won't cover it.

[Vitruvian-Man]

I don't agree at all. Many get a bit of flu-like symptoms at the start of a cycle, but then are completely healthy until they come off the gear.

Do you have anything showing that AAS lower your immune system while you're on them? And even if they do disrupt the immune system, the huge increase in lean mass would certainly make up for it, which is the main reason they are used with AIDs patients in the first place.

I assumed someone would jump on me for that comment.

I don't have studies, lol. They would be pretty hard to come by.

That said, give us your thoughts on what would occur if the OP came down with a nasty case of test-flu on the 3rd week of his cycle. Do you think those side effects are going to be particularly fun to cope with in conjunction with his HIV-medication regiment?

In my experience I got the worst test-flu I've ever had on my first cycle. I was down for the count for 5 days, vomiting none-stop, and had to get prescribed antibiotics in the end.

That's not even mentioning what would occur if while his initially states of test-flu it progressed into something worse? Sicknesses can build off one another. Especially when one's immune system is already in a fragile state.

There are just so many possible outcomes out there. I really think the OP needs to follow the advice of his medical professionals. But just my 0.02

Have a good night guys.

-VM

[Bonaparte]

I assumed someone would jump on me for that comment.

I don't have studies, lol. They would be pretty hard to come by.

That said, give us your thoughts on what would occur if the OP came down with a nasty case of test-flu on the 3rd week of his cycle. Do you think those side effects are going to be particularly fun to cope with in conjunction with his HIV-medication regiment?

In my experience I got the worst test-flu I've ever had on my first cycle. I was down for the count for 5 days, vomiting none-stop, and had to get prescribed antibiotics in the end.

That's not even mentioning what would occur if while his initially states of test-flu it progressed into something worse? Sicknesses can build off one another. Especially when one's immune system is already in a fragile state.

There are just so many possible outcomes out there. I really think the OP needs to follow the advice of his medical professionals. But just my 0.02

Have a good night guys.

-VM

Well, test flu is most likely an immune reaction to a sudden spike in etiocholanolone, not a bacterial or viral attack, so a weak immune system would be LESS likely to experience it. Besides, he could always start out slow with orals, then add in some test. He wouldn't just start blasting high doses of test prop.

[Vitruvian-Man]

Original Thread: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=442570

For a quick summary, I was diagnosed with HIV and UC a few months ago and I had lost a lot of weight since (55 lbs). After about a month of starting my HIV meds, the weight loss has stopped. I have gained about 10 lbs back, though I'm sure they're mostly water and fat because I don't see much difference really.

After reading many studies on the matter and the book "Built To Survive" (which is basically research and clinical data written by doctors and HIV+ patients to support testosterone and deca usage for HIV+ patients), I'm convinced I need to gain back lean mass quickly since any new infection could end up putting me in the hospital for months or maybe worse.

So far, I have been unable to gain any support from doctors I've been to regarding starting a steroid cycle. They have all even refused to test my natural testosterone levels to see if I'm on the low side. They said nothing about proper nutrition, exercise, and total lean muscle mass (all essential to HIV+ patients), which really makes me question anything they have to say. They all claimed my HIV+ meds will help me gain back weight, but this is not entirely true and most of the time HIV+ patients end up putting on huge amounts of fat.

The thing is, I don't really need a prescription to get my testosterone or deca. I can get LEGIT steroids easily. I have a friend who will be able to give what I need straight from a pharmacy. I still have to pay for it, maybe have to cut back on a few things but that won't be a problem.

I'm lost to say the least. I feel like there's noone who is willing to actually LISTEN to what I have to say. A lot of doctors have unjustified fear or bias when it comes to steroids. The plan now is to start my own cycle next month, but I'm worried about how I'm going to keep track and get blood work and other things done. Should I just go straight to a doctor and say I'm on steroids?

I need advice, guys. I feel like I'm being dumb starting a cycle against medical advice, but at the same time it doesn't seem fair to me that no doctor is willing to provide me with a legit reason as to why I shouldn't. Also, what are the chances of me being hospitalized this year? Probably on the low side, but it's still a risk I don't want to take. I admit that part of why I'm doing this is to go back to looking the way I used to. It will do wonders to my mental and physical health, if people stop asking me why I look anorexic all of a sudden. Am I being selfish here? Should I just rely on muscle memory and exercise to do their work?

You can tell I'm very confused. I thought maybe here I'd get some real help as to what I should do. Maybe some guidance along the way if I decide to go through with it.

Well, thanks for reading this.

I do have a question for you.... Reading through your past thread..

My CD4 count is below 200 which is the guideline for the definition of AIDS in the US and my viral load is above 100,000 copies/ml. This only happens in advanced stages of AIDS, apparently I'm a fast progressor. I still have no idea how I got it. I was always safe and I've never done drugs.

So you always use safe sex yet.....

I had a bad case of gonorrhea 6 months ago, so maybe that raised the risk enough for me to catch it? Still 6 months is too little for HIV to turn into AIDS. I'm still confused because doctors can't really say WHEN you got it. It depends on the person and the strain you have. BUT it's meaningless to think about that now, it's already done and over and it will only make me feel bad.

My first question is, how could you possibly be "always safe" when you contracted both gonorrhea and the human immunodeficiency virus.... in the span of a couple of months?

My second question is, what type of girls were you sleeping with! jesus. gotta be more selective in who you raw-dog it with....

-VM

[Bonaparte]

I do have a question for you.... Reading through your past thread..



So you always use safe sex yet.....



My first question is, how could you possibly be "always safe" when you contracted both gonorrhea and the human immunodeficiency virus.... in the span of a couple of months?

My second question is, what type of girls were you sleeping with! jesus. gotta be more selective in who you raw-dog it with....

-VM

Not that it changes anything, but I'm just going to read between the lines here and assume that these aren't girls he's sleeping with.
"Undercover" makes me think of "down-low"...

[Times Roman]

When I went to my physical therapist, I asked his opinion on anavar, and he just kinda froze up and said "you don't want to mess with that, that is an anabolic steroid" (no shit sherlock). So, I think the medical establishment has an extreme amount of bias towards aas.


but isn't var reasonably tolerated with HIV?

[Undercover]

I do have a question for you.... Reading through your past thread..



So you always use safe sex yet.....



My first question is, how could you possibly be "always safe" when you contracted both gonorrhea and the human immunodeficiency virus.... in the span of a couple of months?

My second question is, what type of girls were you sleeping with! jesus. gotta be more selective in who you raw-dog it with....

-VM

I don't know. I have no reason to lie here and pretend I was but to be completely honest, I was always safe.

I'm moving to another city at the start of next month. Hopefully, I'll have better luck there but I'm not counting on it. I'm really not looking for insurance to pay for this, I just want to do it under some kind of supervision.

[Vitruvian-Man]

I don't know. I have no reason to lie here and pretend I was but to be completely honest, I was always safe.

I'm moving to another city at the start of next month. Hopefully, I'll have better luck there but I'm not counting on it. I'm really not looking for insurance to pay for this, I just want to do it under some kind of supervision.

I feel for you buddy. Truly.

I had an STI once in my life, and it was very hard to cope with. I'm glad to see that you're in such an optimistic state. It's a refreshing outlook/perspective .

Regarding the insurance, the issue is that you will need to get blood-work to verify the need for testosterone therapy; or you will need to find a doctor that will prescribe it to you as an anti-wasting solution. Then you need to go to your insurance companies website, and check exactly what forms of that treatment they will cover. (generally they are very specific about the types of medications / treatments they will cover.)

To be honest, I'm thinking unless you have unbelievable medical-insurance it probably won't cover your wanting for HGH therapy. It can cost $1000+ for 50 - 75iu. Needless to say, most insurers won't want to pay 10,000 a year unless you're absolutely covered. (and even then they can require MRI's of the pituitary gland, etc.)

I'm all out of ideas. Hopefully you find something that works for you!

I don't know. HIV meds are already a big burden for the liver, so I'm assuming anything oral shouldn't be considered.

^^ Yes! do NOT take any oral AAS while on your antiretroviral drugs. No matter how "mild" they are considered. Your liver is already being taxed hard right now.

-VM

[40plusnewbie]

When I went to my physical therapist, I asked his opinion on anavar, and he just kinda froze up and said "you don't want to mess with that, that is an anabolic steroid" (no shit sherlock). So, I think the medical establishment has an extreme amount of bias towards aas.


but isn't var reasonably tolerated with HIV?

It was my understanding that var was PRESCRIBED for aids wasting syndrome sometimes. Don't take my word for it, do your research and if so talk to your dr about it. I would even bring in research studies supporting this as lots of dr's know crap about steroids. If he says no and doesn't have a good reason (like do to your specific symptoms it would be contraindicated because abc) but just is against it in general principal or something to that effect I would get a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th opinion.

I would also research on the internet for dr's in my area that would not be against this type of treatment on any moral grounds or because they have a bias or are unfamiliar. I also might call a TRT place and explain my situation and ask for advice or a referral to a dr. who knows his shizat re: aids waisting and ALL reasonable/good treatments and not just dr's who tow the standard line and are afraid to step outside the box even if that is the medically correct and most benefitial thing to do, kind of covering their ass by giving only standard treatments. No one needs that crap, u want what's BEST for your situations, many dr's won't deviate from standard tx's b/c they want to play it safe for THEMSELVES rather than putting their patients needs first.

[Epic Ed]

I would do all the research possible to find which AAS might be detrimental to your immune system and which would affect it the least. Then pick the best combination of AAS from the list of least harmful and roll with it. If I were in your shoes I'd be doing everything possible to improve/maintain my quality of life and improve my chances of survival. If that means taking an ass-load of AAS, so be it. Just on my initial reaction I'd say test, deca, and anavar would be the cycle of choice for me.

All the best to you in your pursuit of good health.

[Stiffmeister]

Original Thread: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=442570

For a quick summary, I was diagnosed with HIV and UC a few months ago and I had lost a lot of weight since (55 lbs). After about a month of starting my HIV meds, the weight loss has stopped. I have gained about 10 lbs back, though I'm sure they're mostly water and fat because I don't see much difference really.

After reading many studies on the matter and the book "Built To Survive" (which is basically research and clinical data written by doctors and HIV+ patients to support testosterone and deca usage for HIV+ patients), I'm convinced I need to gain back lean mass quickly since any new infection could end up putting me in the hospital for months or maybe worse.

So far, I have been unable to gain any support from doctors I've been to regarding starting a steroid cycle. They have all even refused to test my natural testosterone levels to see if I'm on the low side. They said nothing about proper nutrition, exercise, and total lean muscle mass (all essential to HIV+ patients), which really makes me question anything they have to say. They all claimed my HIV+ meds will help me gain back weight, but this is not entirely true and most of the time HIV+ patients end up putting on huge amounts of fat.

The thing is, I don't really need a prescription to get my testosterone or deca. I can get LEGIT steroids easily. I have a friend who will be able to give what I need straight from a pharmacy. I still have to pay for it, maybe have to cut back on a few things but that won't be a problem.

I'm lost to say the least. I feel like there's noone who is willing to actually LISTEN to what I have to say. A lot of doctors have unjustified fear or bias when it comes to steroids. The plan now is to start my own cycle next month, but I'm worried about how I'm going to keep track and get blood work and other things done. Should I just go straight to a doctor and say I'm on steroids?

I need advice, guys. I feel like I'm being dumb starting a cycle against medical advice, but at the same time it doesn't seem fair to me that no doctor is willing to provide me with a legit reason as to why I shouldn't. Also, what are the chances of me being hospitalized this year? Probably on the low side, but it's still a risk I don't want to take. I admit that part of why I'm doing this is to go back to looking the way I used to. It will do wonders to my mental and physical health, if people stop asking me why I look anorexic all of a sudden. Am I being selfish here? Should I just rely on muscle memory and exercise to do their work?

You can tell I'm very confused. I thought maybe here I'd get some real help as to what I should do. Maybe some guidance along the way if I decide to go through with it.

Well, thanks for reading this.

Idk where you live but out here in Cali HIV is a damn good reason, especially if it's physically affecting you drastically like in your case, to use AAS and many doctors are open to the idea especially because it stimulates growth. They also recommend marijuana, but that's for another topic ha. Anyways, if you're set to use them, just make sure your doctor knows and is monitoring you. IMO eventually the HIV will be AIDS and eventually well you know..... so if you're healthy enough now to use and it helps you cope with the effects of HIV, then I don't see any reason not to as long as your doc keeps and eye on you. Also, it should be mentioned that you losing weight to the point of anorexia is a hell of a lot worse and furthers the degration of the immune system much quicker than if you kept your weight up and simultaneously increased your appetite. it's why AAS have been used in cases such as these.

[Bonaparte]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

The plan now is to wait and see if I can find a doctor in the city I'm moving to who'd be willing to help. If not, I'll be starting my cycle sometime around the 10th of October.

I've read about many studies where testosterone and deca were used on people with much weaker immune systems than mine with higher than TRT doses for 12-16 weeks. I'm just going back and forth about throwing deca in there. On one side, this will be my first cycle ever, shouldn't I be testing waters with testosterone ONLY first? I'm talking about the regular sides here and not anything immune-related. I don't want hair loss, acne, and gyno added to the list of things I'm worrying about. On the other, will testosterone alone be enough to reverse wasting?

I would start out with maybe 400mgs of test and go from there.
Later on, you could add deca if you think you need it.

Are you leaning toward cycling or TRT/blast and cruise?
I would opt for the latter, since coming off would be dangerous in your situation (the post-cycle weeks are rough on your immune system and I get sick easily and lose my appetite) and since fertility isn't a concern.
Also, I'm sure the potential health risks from staying on year-round (not at high doses all the time) would be far exceeded by the risks of coming off and losing much of your gains and getting sick.

[Times Roman]

sh1t mate... look at "majik johnson".... how long has it been since he was diagnosed with HIV? too lazy to look it up, but i'm thinking maybe 15 years ago??? it may get him some day, but if you really take care of yourself, I don't think a family is out of the question. Am I right?

[40plusnewbie]

Bring those studies with you, unless a dr specializes in an area you can not assume he knows jack about the topic.

I would also consider lawsuits against dr's unwilling to prescribe me this stuff if I was in your shoes, hanging on for dear life, presenting evidence of trials that have effectively helped people like you and u r shown the door rather than given the medicine.

Let them know u have done extensive research (and do it) and print out copies for them. This is litterally life and death for u bro and every damn day counts!

If for some reason u don't get on steroids and pass away (God forbid) make sure there is someone u care about who has ur documentation to carry on a law suit in your name. dr's are not always right.

[SlimmerMe]

It would seem that some doctor would prescribe HGH for you,...with insurance to cover this...I do not understand why..
Please...if you could explain this since I have often heard hgh helps and if money is the issue...then...is it simply because HGH is not considered to be an approved protocol?...for insurance purposes?... curious..

LOVE YOUR ATTITUDE!!!! JUST LOVE LOVE LOVE IT!

[FuzzyPeaches o.O]

It would seem that some doctor would prescribe HGH for you,...with insurance to cover this...I do not understand why..
Please...if you could explain this since I have often heard hgh helps and if money is the issue...then...is it simply because HGH is not considered to be an approved protocol?...for insurance purposes?... curious..

LOVE YOUR ATTITUDE!!!! JUST LOVE LOVE LOVE IT!

If I remember correctly he lives in Germany and their Health System is not like ours here in the States. However, that still does not take away from the potential benefits of this course of action. GL!