The final word on DECA and LIQUIDEX

[BASK8KACE]

I have been sifting through a bunch of articles on deca, gyno, estrogen, anti-e's and progesterone. For every post that says liquidex will help prevent deca related gyno, there is another saying it will not.

Please help with these 3 questions:

In a testosterone/deca stack could you tell me...

True or False:
1--Liquidex prevents the aromatization of deca to progesterone?

2--Liquidex only blocks estrogen/progesterone from binding to receptors, it does not prevent deca aromitization?

3--A dose of 0.25 ml of liquidex each day while taking deca is enough to prevent aromitization AND enough to hinder bloating?

[motoxxxguy]

bump...I'm a little curious too.

[Ozzy]

I just saw you over at the FG board...you can never get enough info bro

[wimp]

i'm not sure with the liquidex but i know that bromo will help with the progesterone. Also if you add winny to your cycle that would help alittle too.

[BASK8KACE]

bump

[mmaximus25]

I was under the assumption that proviron and liquidex fully stops estrodiol but not progesterone. Fully is what I'm saying. It cannot stop total aromatization... meaning you need to control the mammary gland stimulant prolactin, through bromcriptine and or dopergin. I guess better safe than sorry so the liquidex bromo or dopergin is the way to go.
I'll dig on this because I want hard data. I shoot you what I find out, unless some one beats me to it...

[Madmax]

Originally posted by mmaximus25
I was under the assumption that proviron and liquidex fully stops estrodiol but not progesterone. Fully is what I'm saying. It cannot stop total aromatization... meaning you need to control the mammary gland stimulant prolactin, through bromcriptine and or dopergin. I guess better safe than sorry so the liquidex bromo or dopergin is the way to go.
I'll dig on this because I want hard data. I shoot you what I find out, unless some one beats me to it...

you beat me to it bro, his was the next post i was going to awnser...guess you texans are faster than us missourians......Madmax...

[mmaximus25]

What up Madmax... B8K bro I left my physiology book at home, but upon aromatizing from testoseron into estrogen the majority will go for the lagging of the two major estrogens. I am not 100% on this so dont chisle the stone yet, estrogen is just as powerful a our mighty T and your question is going to take a three point reference. from body chemistry to drug function and finally how well function relates to the drug action. I'm leaving work now so I'll try and hit you later...

[BASK8KACE]

Originally posted by mmaximus25
What up Madmax... B8K bro I left my physiology book at home, but upon aromatizing from testoseron into estrogen the majority will go for the lagging of the two major estrogens. I am not 100% on this so dont chisle the stone yet, estrogen is just as powerful a our mighty T and your question is going to take a three point reference. from body chemistry to drug function and finally how well function relates to the drug action. I'm leaving work now so I'll try and hit you later...

Mmaximus25,

Thank you, I'm looking forward to hearing from you when you get a hold of your physiology book.

[Rickson]

I want to keep this thread bumped to hear some more theories before I participate. I have heard great arguments over this topic before.

[mmaximus25]

I pasted this here second becasue I had used my decrepit brain instead of fact data. and gave a younger bro mis-information that I needed to clear up... but heres where I'm at so far... I have'n't reread and it might be hard to understand...
Ok bro I had to hit you back first because I don’t like giving bad info.
The female sex hormones that occur are "estrogens" http://66.77.148.98/estrogen_progesterone_primer.htm --and progesterone. Estrogen is a general name of a large group of hormones. Progesterone is a secondary female sex hormone
I am currently trying to get better info from a professor how testosterone converts into estrogens. Since deca is a derivative of test I don’t see where people are saying it converts solely to progesterone or progesterone at all. In fact what I believe is happening is high amounts of free test are constant as we inject every week if not more right... well the conversion to estrogen is in constant effort also. If that conversion is being fought that’s all good and well but that doesn't stop 100% of the conversion. It can't... we as in males need estrogen to function. In some reading I've just done we convert testosterone into estrogen on a normal basis contributing to mood function in our brain. That’s not the kicker. What I'm looking into right now is I don’t think we stop progesterone from elevating due to the high Test levels with the an anti-aromatasis, I'm not done researching yet and this can't be taken as solid until I have each base covered with data but...
Why does gyno occur... because the mammary gland is trying to mature to a state of use. So the key is to find out exactly how "prolactin" http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hboo...prolactin.html --levels are raised because prolactin is the prohormone that contributes to the growth of the mammary gland during ovulation. But that’s not all... prolactin is necessary for maintenance of corpora lutea (ovarian structures that secrete ""progesterone"", the "hormone of pregnancy"). I will wait for info from this professor but I believe that we are using drug functions to combat a problem that is not fully understood. I can only research at night so anyone that can help please do. I believe now that the link to why gyno happens is in the endocrine system. We know how to suppress prolactin but I want to know what is causing the high level of production... A high level of progesterone will mean a high level of prolactin... suppress the prolactin from the pituitary and then...??? Does that lower progesterone...??? I'm not done yet, but with sleep and time were gonna figure this shit out. sorry for any mis info I gave off the top of my head... I'm bad at that but I'm not above saying I was wrong and finding the data to back it up

[redrumkev]

is bromo abtained over the counter or Rx Only? Thanks

[Slypknot]

bumping as this is an awesome thread...

[BASK8KACE]

Thanks, mmaximus25. Good discussion info.

I'd like to find out more about it...Anyone else?

Rickson,
Don't hold back. I'd like to hear what you have to say.

[mmaximus25]

"Progesterone has NO feminizing characteristics. Progesterone is an 5-alpha reductase inhibitor -- it helps prevent the conversion of testosterone into DHT."
I'm getting closer B8K... My major problem is having to go back and forth from text book to web because I don’t have a scanner... And I don’t want to just make statement with out the back up...
http://www.yourlifesource.com/progesterone-for-men.htm

As I was saying before I do not believe the anti-aromatasis even effects progesterone from occurring. The issue is becoming more and more focused at the endocrine system. The gland to gland communication is the key. Once we have stated the cause of mammary growth in men, that being the mammary is being simulated only so it can become a functional gland, stimulation, is occurring through the prohormone prolactin. We must narrow down how and why the pituitary is causing this message to be sent.... I've got a good assumption but am not ready with any documentation yet...
My second and third questions I want data on why and where did people get their knowledge that progesterone is aromatized from deca... I do not believe this...anymore... If I can find where this was derived I can find the answer easier... I want to know what the best combatant to gyno is...
The action of Dopergin may be a better combatant to keeping gyno away, but I don’t have any real doc. yet.
I forgot to tell you I have gyno in my left pec so this was also a question and concern of mine... I'll hit you with what else I get on this. I think we still need to find at least three more sources to confirm my thoughts and then we can say we got a clean hard fact. So anyone that wants to source check what I have would be good... later on bro

[mmaximus25]

I still haven't heard back from the good old professor. I emailed Stan Baldwin the assistant Professor of Biology at Mississippi College. I asked for a better understanding of the conversion of testosterone into estrogens. Estrogen, not being a true sole hormone but is a large group of hormones. There are weak and stronger individual prohormones with in Estrogen, the stronger ones may be causing the signals contributing to gyno in Men. Even though the conversion to estrogens is stopped, the question is which estrogens are stopped and which ones are not. Remember the drug functions will never be the same per individual and per drug (Ex. proviron to liquidex). I have a feeling that the anti-aroma’s are working but it’s the perception of built up estrogens that is causing hormonal signals to be misread or misinterpreted.
I'm going to look at the characteristics of the Deca's and why this seems to be thought of as a major contributor to permanent gyno.
We may have to realize that there hasn’t been extensive research in to which estrogens are converted and which ones are not. There wouldn’t be a huge reason for normal health even in HRT. This is with in our world and we all know that testing research isn’t devoted to AS use in large.

[nj_]

Originally posted by redrumkev
is bromo abtained over the counter or Rx Only? Thanks

Rx only.

[CutUp]

Hey MMax...I spent a semester at Mississippi College, cool to here you getting a reference there.
I'm going to bump this b/c Mmax was helping me out on the same subject, and I want to hear more.

[mmaximus25]

I know Mr. Baldwin is probably really busy. But he as some damn good insight into physiology. I'm just hoping the research has been done in regards to which estrogens; testosterone and testosterone derivatives aromatizes into.
If anyone can second source the
"Progesterone has NO feminizing characteristics. Progesterone is an 5-alpha reductase inhibitor -- it helps prevent the conversion of testosterone into DHT."
http://www.yourlifesource.com/progesterone-for-men.htm
Estrogen
http://66.77.148.98/estrogen_progesterone_primer.htm
Prolactin
http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hboo...prolactin.html
That would help. Just basically find two more creditable notations or doc. that say the same things as above.
I want to get 1st sources out of the way and while I looking into the drug side maybe someone else could second & third source me so we here at AR will have hard as frig facts. The first post from B8K is what we're gonna answer in summary once and for all. I just want to break it down and source it then summarize all we got.
B8k, Warrior, Madmax if ya'll got any time I know I'm gonna be busy next week so this week end I'll try and get the drug function to action and the deca link 1st sourced down. Any other bro's... nj_ I know you Canadians done have anything to do...lol CutUp... I know your new well now a new recruit.
Big daddy Rickson if you have any time...
Pheedno...come on bro...nah...if you have any time I'd appreciate it. I know we all got real jobs.
B8K you started a good one...

[mmaximus25]

I just PMed a load of bros. Only cause if someone is busy then maybe another bro could help. I know next week I wont have as much time to screw around at work and surf and read... If your busy I understand, we all got real jobs...but thx for anyone that has time

[mmaximus25]

I'm sorry if I was unclear... What I am trying to do is locate a 2nd and third source for every 1st fact source I find.
This is a way of reassuring or making data more solid. So basically the first fact sources are not going to be very hard it’s the 2nd and 3rd source in which data is corroborated that is more difficult.
EX. need two more info sites that have the same info in regards to prolactin and its effect on the mammary gland. The info I posted about prolactin needs to have two more information sources to be considered hard data...
The info on drug function in regards to bromocriptine, Dopergin, proviron, liquidex and not to mention what estrogens are aromatized from test and its derivatives. This info I'm looking for now is going to be harder to find 2nd sources for and even harder to find 3rd sources for, but if you want a non-disputed fact then this is the best way to go at it.

[OGPackin]

Hey bros i have some good info on this subject...

OG

Arimidex seems to have somewhat become the holy grail of anti-estrogens. Due to its limited availability, high price and extreme effectiveness, its become a much desired product on the black market. The compound anastrozole is indeed a revolution in the treatment of breast cancers. It's a new generation of aromatase blocker. Up until recently the main product for this purpose was the androgenic steroid Mesterolone (Proviron). But the problem here was that Proviron was not particularly strong and in the required doses of 50 to 100 mg per day, androgenic side-effects were not uncommon. Proviron is after all a DHT derivative. It could also never be used longer than the cycle lasted, because to some extent (despite readily being deactivated) it was suppressive of natural testosterone production. Anastrozole seems to do the job more efficiently. In clinical trials a single tab daily proved to have a profound effect. In steroid circles, mostly due to the high cost, experimentation with half and quarter tabs proved it to be almost unbelievably strong. So much, that really half a tab per day suffices for most users.

Anastrozole operates by blocking the aromatase enzyme, the primary enzyme for the conversion of testosterone to estrogen. A steroid that is altered by this enzyme is referred to as an aromatizing steroid, and such steroids can cause estrogen build-up. This has several potential side-effects such as water retention, fat gain and lets not forget gynocomastia (the growth of breast tissue in men). To prevent such effects anti-aromatase products can be used. Often times during a cycle most will want to allow for some estrogen, since it heavily promotes strength and gains as well (increases GH, upgrades the androgen receptor, improves glucose utilization). These people will generally opt for an estrogen receptor antagonist such as Nolvadex (tamoxifen) or Clomid (Clomiphene). These products do not stop the formation of estrogen, but stop the estrogen from exerting its effects by competitively taking up the receptors for this hormone. This allows them to stop any problems dead in their tracks, acting very fast, but upon discontinuation allowing for immediate influx of estrogen again as well. This has the benefit that they can be used as soon as problems arise, and discontinued when they subside, thereby only reducing estrogen-mediated gains for the time-span of the occurring problem (mostly gyno). Aromatase blockers like arimidex and proviron on the other hand are more useful for those seeking to eliminate estrogen from a cycle of aromatizable steroids all together. People who are willing to settle for slower gains, in an attempt to stay lean throughout, or for those who are truly sensitive to estrogen and do not want to take the risk of problems occurring. And arimidex is the clear weapon of choice here, at least to those who can afford it.

Things one needs to note while using arimidex is that the benefits of estrogen become non-existent as well. First of all that means gains can be drastically reduced. They will be leaner and more qualitative, but they will nonetheless be seriously reduced. A second problem is that estrogen seems to have a positive effect on cholesterol levels. Since estrogen is reduced, the use of arimidex may have a profound impact on HDL to LDL ratio's in your cholesterol profile. In this aspect the use of Nolvadex is more user-friendly, because despite its anti-estrogenic effects in most tissues, it seems to exert positive estrogenic effects in the liver and promote a better cholesterol profile.

Lastly, the major problem with arimidex is the cost. I've seen people who were willing to fork over 250 dollars for a 28 tablet box of legit arimidex. That's the price of fame. Of course these prices are rididculous, but most people don't really know where to look. I've found the generic anastrozole tabs for as low as 2.2 dollars per tab, which is less than half the average street price. So it all comes down to shopping around a bit. Its not that anastrozole is that expensive to make, just that its patented. Which means that besides legit arimidex, all versions in existence are generics. This also means they could be slightly off on content or impure, if trustworthy at all. So be sure to check this with someone who has tried them or had them tested before buying a generic. The liquidex sells legit for not that much more, Around 3 to 4 bucks per gram and is generally a good buy as well, although content may be off. Since few will be investing in this to mess around with low doses and will generally opt to take 1 mg a day (1/4 cc), this shouldn't be a problem. The anastrozole powder is a real buy at merely 2-3 dollars per mg, but obviously no one will ship that for less than 100 mg orders.

Stacking and Use:

As mentioned, arimidex is an ancillary that is supposed to be stacked with aromatizing steroids in order to stop all formation of estrogen. Its seemingly very potent, so doses of 0.5 to 1 mg are enough. Some claim that 0.25 mg is enough, but for anyone doing any sort of serious cycle, I would not advise less than 0.5. These steroids are, without exception testosterone, nandrolone, norethandrolone, boldenone and methandrostenolone. And all of their derivatives as well. The drug oxymetholone (anadrol) has estrogenic effects as well, but they seem to be the result of oxymetholone's acidic A-ring activating the estrogen receptor by itself, rather than by conversion to estrogen. So Nolvadex would be more advisable in that case. To understand the whole story, I refer you to my profile on Anadrol.

Although it does block gains, aromatase blockers are generally used for the extent or a certain duration on a cycle, whereas receptor antagonists are used mostly to solve problems. Because it takes some time for an aromatase blocker to take effect (even when aromatase is blocked, there is still a level of circulating estrogen) and again some time to bring estrogen back upon discontinuation (new estrogen needs to be made again), acute problems are best solved with Nolvadex or clomid. When an aromatase blocker is used, Arimidex is the best choice by far. Proviron may be more apt when using with testosterone, due to its other characteristics and positive benefits on testosterone, but for all other intents and purpose arimidex should be preferred in these instances.

[Solrock]

Excellent post OG

[bigdog2502002]

very nice!

[nj_]

The best compliment to a Deca cycle to avoid gyno would be RU-486. Most people say its not worth running RU-486 with deca because of the side effects associated w/RU-486. The first being that it hinders white blood cells and suppresses the immune system...another side effect is that low cortisol levels can inhibit protein degradation. If you use nolva/arimidex, they will only combat ER (estrogen receptor) stimulation not PR (progesterone receptor) stimulation meaning you can still be susceptible to gyno from deca. The only drugs which will combat progesterone/prolactin activity are bromocriptine and dostinex (cabergoline). Vitex (chasteberry) has also worked for some people but if you're very prone I'd stick with the real drugs not herbs. For most people though, doses at or below 600mg/wk usually do not result in gyno...but for those who are prone its a whole different story.

[BASK8KACE]

This is the beginning of breaking through this mystery of DECA, ANTI-E's, PROGESTERONE, and DECA-RELATED GYNO.

Thanks for the great info. Let's keep it coming till we solve this.

Mmaximus,
Excellent job, bro! You've got a PM!

[mmaximus25]

Originally posted by mmaximus25
I'm sorry if I was unclear... What I am trying to do is locate a 2nd and third source for every 1st fact source I find.
This is a way of reassuring or making data more solid. So basically the first fact sources are not going to be very hard it’s the 2nd and 3rd source in which data is corroborated that is more difficult.
EX. need two more info sites that have the same info in regards to prolactin and its effect on the mammary gland. The info I posted about prolactin needs to have two more information sources to be considered hard data...
The info on drug function in regards to bromocriptine, Dopergin, proviron, liquidex and not to mention what estrogens are aromatized from test and its derivatives. This info I'm looking for now is going to be harder to find 2nd sources for and even harder to find 3rd sources for, but if you want a non-disputed fact then this is the best way to go at it.

OG,
Good post, ANd to all the bros I PMed...
I might as well give my assumption now. Instead of trying to go backwards.

I believe that anit-aromo's have different strengths as well. And yes because we need estrogen also... to completely or in major reduce the estrogens in our body can prove harmful if done for long periods.
Ok so how do you combat gyno?
1st off progesterone is not the cause of gyno, in fact we severely need progesterone and testosterone.
yourlifesource.com quote...
""" Males make progesterone. They need it to make their testosterone and for the adrenal glands to make cortisone. Males synthesize progesterone in amounts less than women do but it is still vital. You can measure male's progesterone levels, and you'll find that when the woman has this follicle damage I'm talking about, the amount of progesterone she makes is less than that of a male.
Men with BPH (swelling of the prostate) and other male related problems will appreciate the speed of relief with progesterone cream. Dr. Lee recommends that men use 8 - 12 mg of progesterone daily. Progesterone has NO feminizing characteristics. Progesterone is an 5-alpha reductase inhibitor -- it helps prevent the conversion of testosterone into DHT.""""
http://www.yourlifesource.com/progesterone-for-men.htm

I believe with in our endocrine system there are misinterpreted signals that are being read from gland to gland; mainly our pituitary and corpora lutea suffer the most mis-read hormonal messages... this contributing to the true cause of gyno.
Even though the anti-aroma’s stop most of the test conversion to estrogens; the stronger estro's are not affected. And or the hormone imbalance prior to the anti-aroma’s function is having a signal still reach the pituitary.
Causing the pituitary to send its messenger prolactin to the mammary to make the gland function.
Once an adult, estrogens will merely affect mood, blood cholesterol and adipose tissue in the ER receptor sites in major-estrogen has much more benefits also. But gland function causing gyno is solely due to misread and signaled hormones with in or endocrine system.
As stated above if the anti-aromo is too strong this will inhibit complete estrogen conversion causing more than just high cholesterol but dopamine issues, lack of progesterone issues.
So what must be done to fully combat and guard against gyno..? With out fully screwing your estro levels... a proviron- bromo stack must be taken... or something similar (liquidex-Dopergin)…
Don’t stop total T conversion but suppress total prolactin production from the pituitary. Prolactin is produced in other areas but fortunately it’s the pituitary that sends to the mammary gland.

The only question not answered from the first post by B8K is the Deca link or test derivative conversion to estrogens. I don’t know where it came from that deca aromatizes into progesterone but I need to find out if it is true… Because then my assumption on deca if aromatized into progesterone is. Sense ““prolactin is necessary for maintenance of corpora lutea (ovarian structures that secrete progesterone, the "hormone of pregnancy").”” The higher level of progesterone is causing some kind or misinterpretation by the pituitary once more and thus the release prolactin is signaled yet again…
In a sense we are taking drugs that contradict each other but must be done. If you suppress prolactin totally you must take another drug to keep a progesterone production.
I see it as I stated above… You must not fully suppress estrogen conversion so progesterone can still occur. You must suppress prolactin to stop any signal to cause the mammary gland to become functional. Estro adipose tissue around the mammary can be combated with anti-estro blockers. Ok tell if I didn’t make sense. And please read the full thread started by B8K younger bros… before you comment. Unless it’s a bump, please… for knowledge sake…

[BASK8KACE]

Mmaximus25 strikes again!

This is excellent info (I've read through it twice). When searching through the posts, I had not seen anything this detailed and well thought out. I appreciate the time you took to write this all out, bro.

I'm gonna look for more info about deca aromatization and post it here when I find it.

[hammerhead]

Well - here's my spin on this subject:

For starters bear in mind we're not dealing with exact science here nor are we referencing entirely accurate sources of research data. Most "medical science" is corroborated theory anyway.

There are opinions on how nandrolone causes gyno. Some believe it is an estrogen conversion not from aromatase but from organic acids acting on its 1-beta hydroxylated derivatives. If this were true it seems ER blockers would also block deca gyno - which they appear unable to do. Another theory is that it is the elevated prolactin that causes deca gyno. If this is the case then the theory holds that Parlodel (bromocriptine) will block deca gyno.

I see it this way - some people do not get deca gyno so for them this is a non-issue - it's interesting information but has no direct relevance to thier cycles.

Those of us who do get deca gyno - does it really matter what exactly causes it and what can effectively block it? If bromo and nolvadex together can effectively block deca gyno - which in theory it will - bear in mind that is in theory only - then is it worth it? No to me. I'm still not going to take deca even if bromo/nolva will block the gyno - it's too expensive by time you factor in all the extras and just having the unknown of playing with my endocrine system like that - to test theories might I add - makes it not worth the cost! I will take equipoise instead and be happy with my results!

I'm not meaning to shoot the thread down - i'm not dicrediting its importance nor its credibility - i'm saying take a step back and look at the big picture here!

[BASK8KACE]

I understand, Hammerhead, but I still want to know about it. Mabye by delving deeper and finding out more, we may uncover some info that will be helpful to others and ultimately may be helpful to deca-gyno sufferers.

[CutUp]

Hey Bro's

MMax...damn good posts...I don't know how you have the time to put all this together, but I know everyone appreciates it.
Again...I have to read them many times to understand, I'm in Psychology, not much help with the chemical aspect. I'll try to help out this week, I am really busy though. I was the one who brought up Deca aromitzing into progesterone...I'm trying to find out where I pulled that from, I'll get back to everyone as soon as I know. Later bro's lets keep this post going...bump

[mmaximus25]

Originally posted by hammerhead
Well - here's my spin on this subject:

For starters bear in mind we're not dealing with exact science here nor are we referencing entirely accurate sources of research data. Most "medical science" is corroborated theory anyway.

There are opinions on how nandrolone causes gyno. Some believe it is an estrogen conversion not from aromatase but from organic acids acting on its 1-beta hydroxylated derivatives. If this were true it seems ER blockers would also block deca gyno - which they appear unable to do. Another theory is that it is the elevated prolactin that causes deca gyno. If this is the case then the theory holds that Parlodel (bromocriptine) will block deca gyno.

I see it this way - some people do not get deca gyno so for them this is a non-issue - it's interesting information but has no direct relevance to thier cycles.

Those of us who do get deca gyno - does it really matter what exactly causes it and what can effectively block it? If bromo and nolvadex together can effectively block deca gyno - which in theory it will - bear in mind that is in theory only - then is it worth it? No to me. I'm still not going to take deca even if bromo/nolva will block the gyno - it's too expensive by time you factor in all the extras and just having the unknown of playing with my endocrine system like that - to test theories might I add - makes it not worth the cost! I will take equipoise instead and be happy with my results!

I'm not meaning to shoot the thread down - i'm not dicrediting its importance nor its credibility - i'm saying take a step back and look at the big picture here!

I agree with you as far as the big picture, but I think in this instance were trying to get and be more knowledgeable about how our bodies react to hormones, prohormones, and drugs consumed. More so I think some guys using AS that read statements and quotes take it as solid.
And I agree with you that most Medical science is corroborated info, kinda like a... check my work, and do you agree, prove me wrong type of stuff.
The info I provided does come from a single solid source but to convey it from my text book (Human Anatomy & Physiology, Author Elaine N. Marieb… wasn't cheap used $180) I would need a scanner and it would be a cut and paste party. There is no single answer and can be too general in some sections...you have to go back and forth finding relative info on the subject. That’s why I used the Web to locate more straight forward definitions. That did not need pages from this chapter and others from that Ch. Difinitions is all they really are. The Progesterone fact is in my text... Progesterone is the precursor to testosterone and estrogens. It is very important to men and women...
I mainly wanted to break it down step by step so my assumption could be under stood. I couldn't have given my assumption with out giving info on specific glands and hormones.
I don’t believe gyno is attributed to a single kind of AS. IN fact all AS can contribute to gyno not just Deca. It happens to be a matter of time with out taking precautions, but I am going to back up all of my assumptions as best I can. I see too many statements without any kind of corroboration besides an article in a muscle mag. I need better data...
Hammer I do understand your thoughts on the matter I just wanted to put more solid info on B8K's original question. Thx for your much valued opinion. Dont turn off your brain yet bro, this wont be the last time I PM you...lol

[FedSki]

Given all that you've stated mmaximus25, is there any value to taking nolva to combat gyno while on a deca cycle?

[BASK8KACE]

I completely agree with Mmaximus25. Some people just state things that they've heard. If something false is said often enough on some boards, people will begin to take it as fact.

I like when we take time to break down the ideas and really check the facts, especially on something as important as deca related gyno. This approach makes me feel better than reading, "Well I heard this from a friend who heard it from a friend who said..." (Anyone remember REO Speedwagon?).

[mmaximus25]

FedSki,
I believe until we find out or research how high levels of estrogens truly effect our Testosterone and Progesterone production, which we need all three; it would be wiser to take and anti-aromo (proviron- liquidex) and a prolactin suppressant (bromocriptine or Dopergin) with a nanadolone (deca) - test derivative. It’s a better safe than sorry mentality due to lack of knowledge. A double precaution is better that one, and we are all different. An anti-aromo might be fine for you but for me with Gyno already I need to insure with a prolactin suppressant on anything not just deca.
Deca is a middle of the road anabolic and has anyone ever understood the build up of estrogens with an anti-estro-blocker while taking a derivative? How do the estrogens affect a weak androgenic hormone like Deca? To me you should be able to only take a Dopergin or bromo with a derivative of test such as deca, but to feel fully confident saying such things, I cant... not until we keep going with this and dwell more into estrogens, the stronger and weaker ones, how they effect us while on and how derivatives such as Deca are considered more problematic.
I still love Deca-dbol when dieting; it does make me harder... I am not so much the winny guy due to cost and have never used Tren in a cycle, may be a shot here and there before work out but can’t give advice on that derivative. I like EQ when I get it cheap over Deca. But we can add one more to B8K’s list and dig more into Deca’s closet. And see how and where Deca and EQ start showing different effects in our body. Does Deca convert in to a stronger estro like estradiol, but one more I want to add to the list is discussion and data on how high levels of estrogen affect a test derivative.

[mmaximus25]

Estrogens, progesterone and testosterone in the female are produced in both the ovaries and adrenal glands. In males, these hormones are produce in testes and adrenal glands. Progesterone is not "down stream" of either testosterone or estrogen in synthesis order. It can be a precusor to test. or estro. Progesterone is made from pregnenolone, which itself is made from cholesterol. Testosterone can be made from progesterone or by another path. Either way, pregnenolone is a precursor to testosterone. There are multiple steps between preg. and test. Testosterone can be a precursor to estrodiol (an estrogen) but not progesterone. To my knowledge, high levels of testosterone would not increase estrogen or progesterone. You would want to consult with an endocrinologist for a more informed opinion than mine.
Stan A. Baldwin Ph.D.
Asst. Professor
Dept. Chair of Biological Sciences
Mississippi College
Box 4045
Clinton, MS 39058

Phone: (601) 925-3321
FAX: (601) 925-3978
email: [email protected]
Personal Webpage: http://www.mc.edu/~sbaldwin
Biology Department Homepage: http://www.mc.edu/campus/academics/BIO/

I did not explain to him that I was injecting enanthate & propionate into my body. I also did not mention anything about androgenic anabolic steroids. I think we're a little better off as I at one time thought progesterone was bad for us, boy was I wrong.
Estrogens and how they truly affect us is an area we should try and learn more about, as well as the different effects of specific synthetic Androgens. That said I am now a believer that a synthetic test is the safest AAS to take and that all derivatives have in some way or form a severe handy cap. They are not unsafe I am just trying to say I believe testosterone is the safest. There is no perfect drug but the safest is testosterone, merely because our body is much more accustom to this synthetic due to the similarity of our natural testosterone.
This changes much of my outlook on long term use. Maybe in another thread we can dwell into AAS and the risk to benefit surrounding each.

[taquipariu]

Great Post! Bump ...

[BIG-G]

Great posts but now im paranoid. Im waiting for my nolvadex to arrive as we speak,(give it a week). My nipps r gettin sensative and even puffy. Armidex is way out of budget range so i got 100 tabs of nolv commin in. Great info from u bros!!

[nj_]

Originally posted by BIG-G
Great posts but now im paranoid. Im waiting for my nolvadex to arrive as we speak,(give it a week). My nipps r gettin sensative and even puffy. Armidex is way out of budget range so i got 100 tabs of nolv commin in. Great info from u bros!!

If arimidex is out of your price range you should look into getting liquidex. It is significantly cheaper if you shop around.

[mmaximus25]

Try and get a hold of some liquidex its cheaper and also for precaution a treatment of bromocriptine or Dopergin.
If you scroll up... the bromo and dopergin are the two best prolactin suppressants. prolactin causes the mammary to function and enlarge... use the nolva if its all you have...
I've never used liquidex only proviron but everyone here says liquidex is cheaper than proviron and the cheaper version of armidex...
like nj is saying...