Let The Flaming Begin!

[Twist]

Disclaimer: Newbs, I am an idiot and if it has nothing to do with diet or training, don't listen to me at all. In fact, don't read this thread, go to the diet section now. I do not know shit about steroids and am here to learn just like you.

So I just want to get the opinion of some vets on this...

I agree that people who are young should not cycle for certain reasons; and that it is better to run test only cycle to get the feeling of how your body reacts to different compounds and what you can expect as far as sides and injecting etc. However, in people that are younger, and maybe even people in general, I have another idea.

Cycles without test at low doses! (oh shit here it comes) Why shut down your bodies natural production when it is doing perfectly well and risk it never coming back? Why is it wrong to tell a person who is not ready to shut down their natural production to run low enough doses so as to not hurt their natural production?

I have heard of many people running dbol only cycles, eq only cycles, deca only cycles, ph cycles, winny only cycles, etc with no negative consequences at all. Instead of taking 40mgs of dbol per day and almost guaranteeing your natural body to shutdown, why not start at 5-10mgs and slowly up it and at the first sign of natural test lowering or shutting down, stop or lower the dose way back down?

There are many people (like my buddy) who can take a shitload of gear and not be shut down even without test. So He can do a dbol only cycle and have no testosterone shut down. I find it stupid for me to tell him to shut down his natural production only to artificially bring it back up, only to let it drop again during pct and having to administer other compounds with terrible sides... Doesn't make sense to me.

The trick is to start low, never increase too much at a time, and stick with certain compounds.

ok flame away

[t-gunz]

as long as no smart ass comment are made should be interesting to see reply's.

but unfortunately there will be smart ass comments cause some people on here just cant help themselves

[40plusnewbie]

Flame. I have read they give anavar to kids with certain conditions but it is not because they want to pack on a few pounds of muscle. It is for medical reasons determined by doctors so it is not necessarily fair to compare the two.

[Twist]

Its just like a bridge... I see no problems.

[Bulkn]

I don't think you would gain much from low doses. First time I started dbol that was 30mg a day and I thought that was a bit low for me.

[IMunchRoidz]

i've always thought alot of these other compounds shut you down as well. (im a noob, so i may be wrong), but something like d-bol shuts you down doesn't it?

edit: lol, i didnt read it properly, ur saying to take 5-10grams instead of 40grams.. 5-10 grams wont do much for strength gains. but im sure there are other reasons why thats not a good idea, cant think of them off the top of my head though

[baseline_9]

Twist

I think the problem with this may be, when do you know when you are starting to shut yourself down?

By the time you feel it your already shut down, like thurst and de-hydration


I get what you are trying to say, just not sure how it would work

Maybe if run at low doses with a moderate dose of a SERM like nolva at 20mg per day you may be able to maintain natty production, IDK

[MACHINE5150]

even low doses shut down your systemm.. All steroids are a form of Testosterone in thier basic format and ALL steroids will shut down your natural test levels at doses as low as 100mg a week.. your body naturally produces 200mg a week roughly so you will lose ALL of that and replace it with half the test you would have produced naturally..

the whole "my buddy did it and he is fine" theory is pretty retarded unless you are saying that he has had his natural test levels checked prior to as well as after cycle.. and they were unaffected.. even if he did this, which i doubt he did.. and he is fine, he would be the EXCEPTION to the rule.. i did steroids when i was 19 and now my test levels are a third of what they should be at my age..

[Twist]

I agree that it has the potential to shut you down, even at the lowest doses. However it doesn't always hsut you down. Most of the people I know of who get shut down do high doses. People who don't cycle will respond to low doses. Now of course it won't be like a cycle, but it won't have the risks either. Some people do full on cycles without ever even getting shut down (as evident by them getting their wife pregnant). 200mgs a week of equipoise is big enough to see many good effects such as increased appetite, vascularity, and lean gains. Granted this will not produce a high amount of gains like running 600mgs a week, but you wouldn't have to deal with pct either. Of course some people will shut down, which is why you start low and work your way up.

I am also not using the, "my buddy does it and he is fine" theory because that is retarded. But I am saying that many of you out there know of people who can do it and be ok. So why not find out if you are that person and have the pct stuff on hand? I just think that telling people who want to do a dbol only cycle or a winny only cycle or some other oral only cycle that you can't do that and you have to use test, is giving somebody incorrect information. I think that shutting down your natural levels is a big step... If you use test in a cycle and you shut yourself down there is no guarantee it will come back. That is IMO more risky than seeing if you can tolerate a low dose of other compounds. If you are a newb dbol and eq and winny (at a low bf) will give you gains. Not the gains you would see from a cycle, but it comes with half the risk. If you get shut down, it is only for a brief period and you immediately take hcg or a pct compound and get going again. The longer you are shut down, the more risky it is. With orals you can stop taking immediately and this will result in an immediate drop in blood levels, making it much more likely to naturally rebound; a 16week cycle is a much bigger step, one that should be avoided if an easier and less dangerous route is available.

[scotty51312]

The only way i could see this being a possibility is if there was a fast and easy way to check test levels. Something as easy as a glucose meter like diabetics have but only for test. Prick your finger once a day to check your levels. Then medicate accordingly. The human endochrine system is just to complex to understand whats going on on a daily basis withouth constant bloodwork

[40plusnewbie]

I will say that one of the main reasons I choose Anavar only as my first cycle is because I wanted to be cautious and was kind of scared of stepping into the realm of steroids despite being like 41yrs old.

But the main reason was that I was FAT and anavar doesn't automatize so I didn't have to worry about gettin bitch tits. I posted a lot of details of that first cycle and made many a screw up that I posted honestly about. If u look at he before and after pics u will notice a very significant difference. I know that cardio and diet will do the same thing, the fact is the anavar route was easier for me. It was a shortcut. I like shortcuts. I dislike long cuts.

None of this is meant to encourage OP to cycle, i am just sharing my personal experience (plus he seems pretty stubborn like he's gonna do what he's gonna do). I made a ton of mistakes with diet, etc but none put me in harms way. In fact I went from being obese to not obese (probably putting an extra 10 years onto my life expectancy).

Young men are so stubborn though, bull headed. That's why bar fights always consist of a bunch of dudes UNDER 25 and not OVER 25 (with exceptions of course). I read and post almost every day. I learn many new things in this area every single day. Then I go check what I learned to see if it is confirmed or under debate/there is disagreement.

[scotty51312]

I will say that one of the main reasons I choose Anavar only as my first cycle is because I wanted to be cautious and was kind of scared of stepping into the realm of steroids despite being like 41yrs old.

But the main reason was that I was FAT and anavar doesn't automatize so I didn't have to worry about gettin bitch tits. I posted a lot of details of that first cycle and made many a screw up that I posted honestly about. If u look at he before and after pics u will notice a very significant difference. I know that cardio and diet will do the same thing, the fact is the anavar route was easier for me. It was a shortcut. I like shortcuts. I dislike long cuts.

None of this is meant to encourage OP to cycle, i am just sharing my personal experience (plus he seems pretty stubborn like he's gonna do what he's gonna do). I made a ton of mistakes with diet, etc but none put me in harms way. In fact I went from being obese to not obese (probably putting an extra 10 years onto my life expectancy).

Young men are so stubborn though, bull headed. That's why bar fights always consist of a bunch of dudes UNDER 25 and not OVER 25 (with exceptions of course). I read and post almost every day. I learn many new things in this area every single day. Then I go check what I learned to see if it is confirmed or under debate/there is disagreement.

I dont' think twist is saying this is what he plans to do. Just suggesting an alternative possibility to the normal routines.

[MACHINE5150]

I agree that it has the potential to shut you down, even at the lowest doses. However it doesn't always hsut you down.HOW DO YOU KNOW IF YOUR TEST LEVELS WERE SHUT DOWN OR NOT IF YOU DO NOT GET TESTED?? Most of the people I know of who get shut down do high doses. People who don't cycle will respond to low doses. Now of course it won't be like a cycle, but it won't have the risks either. Some people do full on cycles without ever even getting shut down (as evident by them getting their wife pregnant) SPERM PRODUCTION AND TESTOSTERONE PRODUCTION ARE NOT REALATED IN ANY FASHION WHAT SO EVER.. BECAUSE YOU STILL HAVE SPERM DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU ARE STILL PRODUCING TEST, JUST BECAUSE THEY BOTH ARE PRODUCED IN YOUR NUTS DOES NOT MAKE THEM THE SAME THING, I NOW SEE WHY YOU ARE CONFUSED ON THIS SUBJECT, BECAUSE YOU THINK THAT IF YOU CAN GET YOUR WIFE PREGNANT THAN YOU MUST BE PRODUCING NORMAL LEVELS OF TEST.. THIS INFACT IS INCORRECT AND COMPLETLEY UNRELATED... 200mgs a week of equipoise is big enough to see many good effects such as increased appetite, vascularity, and lean gains. Granted this will not produce a high amount of gains like running 600mgs a week, but you wouldn't have to deal with pct either. Of course some people will shut down, which is why you start low and work your way up.

I am also not using the, "my buddy does it and he is fine" theory because that is retarded. But I am saying that many of you out there know of people who can do it and be ok. So why not find out if you are that person and have the pct stuff on hand? I just think that telling people who want to do a dbol only cycle or a winny only cycle or some other oral only cycle that you can't do that and you have to use test, is giving somebody incorrect information. WINNY ONLY OR DBOL ONLY WILL SHUT DOWN YOUR NATURAL TEST PRODUCTION ANYWAYS.. DID YOU NOT READ WHAT I ALREADY SAID??? I think that shutting down your natural levels is a big step... If you use test in a cycle and you shut yourself down there is no guarantee it will come back THAT IS WHAT PCT IS FOR. That is IMO more risky than seeing if you can tolerate a low dose of other compounds. If you are a newb dbol and eq and winny (at a low bf) will give you gains. Not the gains you would see from a cycle, but it comes with half the risk. If you get shut down, it is only for a brief period and you immediately take hcg or a pct compound and get going again. The longer you are shut down, the more risky it is. With orals you can stop taking immediately and this will result in an immediate drop in blood levels, making it much more likely to naturally rebound; a 16week cycle is a much bigger step, one that should be avoided if an easier and less dangerous route is available.

you are so backwards in this statement i do not even know where to begin... just read my bold comments

I'm not trying to put you down, but for someone with almost 2000 posts and being on here over two years, I would have assumed that you would be more educated on this subject.

[marcus300]

Disclaimer: Newbs, I am an idiot and if it has nothing to do with diet or training, don't listen to me at all. In fact, don't read this thread, go to the diet section now. I do not know shit about steroids and am here to learn just like you.

So I just want to get the opinion of some vets on this...

I agree that people who are young should not cycle for certain reasons; and that it is better to run test only cycle to get the feeling of how your body reacts to different compounds and what you can expect as far as sides and injecting etc. However, in people that are younger, and maybe even people in general, I have another idea.

Cycles without test at low doses! (oh shit here it comes) Why shut down your bodies natural production when it is doing perfectly well and risk it never coming back? Why is it wrong to tell a person who is not ready to shut down their natural production to run low enough doses so as to not hurt their natural production?

I have heard of many people running dbol only cycles, eq only cycles, deca only cycles, ph cycles, winny only cycles, etc with no negative consequences at all. Instead of taking 40mgs of dbol per day and almost guaranteeing your natural body to shutdown, why not start at 5-10mgs and slowly up it and at the first sign of natural test lowering or shutting down, stop or lower the dose way back down?

There are many people (like my buddy) who can take a shitload of gear and not be shut down even without test. So He can do a dbol only cycle and have no testosterone shut down. I find it stupid for me to tell him to shut down his natural production only to artificially bring it back up, only to let it drop again during pct and having to administer other compounds with terrible sides... Doesn't make sense to me.

The trick is to start low, never increase too much at a time, and stick with certain compounds.

ok flame away

Taking steroids no matter what they are will interfere with your own bodies hormone production because more or less they are all synthetic forms of Testosterone. Our HPTA regulates our bodies via many feedback loops so using hormones what cause shutdown or suppression will have an adverse effect on your natural production. If we take anavar for example which is classed as a weak steroid, there are studies what claim low dose Var will not shutdown your HPTA and infact will keep your testosterone within normal levels, then on the other side we have further studies what claim low dose var for just 5 days will significantly reduce your natural testosterone.

Many studies on humans regarding hormones contradict each other but I would say more or less any kind of steroid will cause suppression of some kind if you take enough of it for a long enough period you will require a PCT. Another issue you have to take in consideration is the actual amount of steroid you will be taking, in your theory you state low dose but I would have to ask is this low dose really going to produce any kind of benefit over your testosterone you naturally produce and is it worth any kind of suppression of your HPTA when the results are going to be very minimal or infact zero with regards to muscle tissue.

There are theories what claim you can use dbol or Var at low dose to bridge two cycles together with very little suppression, ive actually done a few of these bridges and the theory behind it is that your suppose to piggy bank your natural testosterone spike in the morning, but again this isn't something what your going to build with its more of a maintenance protocol but the jury is still out on this one and its rather old school, but from your post this isn't what you meant.

I would claim bull on your friend taking shitloads of steroids and not being shutdown, to be honest ive not known one person who can take steroids especially loads and not be shutdown or it interfering with their natural testosterone.

Your theory about starting low and increasing slowly doesn't make sense, there will be a stage were your body will feedback that there is to many hormones floating around and this will start the reaction to suppression and further down the road to shutdown.

Hope this helps

[voidofRoids]

Logic and biology aren't always synonymous in function. While I agree, your logic does present potential; there is no assurance. Where-as the current systems (and their successors, as they evolve) of cycles are proven, and if strictly adhered to, are safe. When you are dealing with the remainder of your life and the everyday functions of your natural biology, most people aren't exactly interested in being part of a ground-breaking decision, until there is scientific evidence and practical evidence. There is enough known risk in doing it the right way, why increase the risk to try another way?

[TKO Performance]

This sounds like running gear for the sake of running gear. First off, why would you take steroids without taking a dosage high enough to achieve anything? As stated, any artificial test in your body will eventually cause shut down or reduction in natural test. When you are under 25 the chance of that returning or returning to normal is much, much lower than once you are over 25. The guy who said you would be replacing 200mg/week with 100mg/week nailed it on the head. I would further that once you come off of it you will probably still only be producing 100mg/week for life. So you've screwed up your natural test production for what exactly?

Second, the reason young people want to take steroids is because they know nothing about diet and training. They haven't the vaguest concept of what those two things can do for their bodies at their age with their natural test levels. Young people are so much better served by learning about those two things and getting them in order than trying to shortcut with drugs, a shortcut which will fail I might add, as well as risking their long term health.

People who are not ready to use steroids are not ready, period. It doesn't mean they should use a small amount; it means they should use NONE. This goes 1,000x for teenagers and 100x for people under 25 in general.

[MaNiCC]

Calm down fella's. Twist is just having a debate, not like the rest of the people who come on here and ignore the advice they are given

[Twist]

Taking steroids no matter what they are will interfere with your own bodies hormone production because more or less they are all synthetic forms of Testosterone. Our HPTA regulates our bodies via many feedback loops so using hormones what cause shutdown or suppression will have an adverse effect on your natural production. If we take anavar for example which is classed as a weak steroid, there are studies what claim low dose Var will not shutdown your HPTA and infact will keep your testosterone within normal levels, then on the other side we have further studies what claim low dose var for just 5 days will significantly reduce your natural testosterone.

Many studies on humans regarding hormones contradict each other but I would say more or less any kind of steroid will cause suppression of some kind if you take enough of it for a long enough period you will require a PCT. Another issue you have to take in consideration is the actual amount of steroid you will be taking, in your theory you state low dose but I would have to ask is this low dose really going to produce any kind of benefit over your testosterone you naturally produce and is it worth any kind of suppression of your HPTA when the results are going to be very minimal or infact zero with regards to muscle tissue.
this statement above is a very valid point. I am glad you posted this, it has me thinking.

There are theories what claim you can use dbol or Var at low dose to bridge two cycles together with very little suppression, ive actually done a few of these bridges and the theory behind it is that your suppose to piggy bank your natural testosterone spike in the morning, but again this isn't something what your going to build with its more of a maintenance protocol but the jury is still out on this one and its rather old school, but from your post this isn't what you meant.

I would claim bull on your friend taking shitloads of steroids and not being shutdown, to be honest ive not known one person who can take steroids especially loads and not be shutdown or it interfering with their natural testosterone.
You can call it what you like but I am not making this up.

Your theory about starting low and increasing slowly doesn't make sense, there will be a stage were your body will feedback that there is to many hormones floating around and this will start the reaction to suppression and further down the road to shutdown.

Hope this helps

It does help a lot. None of the other arguments seem to hold much water because in both cases (low amounts of dbol vs full on cycles) you risk shutting down and damaging your hpta in the same way, but I would argue that the low dosed oral(or injectable i guess) only cycle has less of an impact on your hpta, and is also much less risky because orals will clear the system and a lasting effect is much less likely when you can clear the drugs from your system and use a pct compound in a matter of days. Further you could also use low doses of a pct compound to keep you "running"

However because the low doses of proposed anabolics still hold a risk, it is now to be determined whether the risk outweighs the possible benefit of using said compounds. I am guessing that there will be gains, but those gains could easily be ruined if the hpta does shut down. Hmmm what to do... thanks for the post Marcus.

Logic and biology aren't always synonymous in function. While I agree, your logic does present potential; there is no assurance. Where-as the current systems (and their successors, as they evolve) of cycles are proven, and if strictly adhered to, are safewell thats a load of bs lol. Nothing about steroids or illegal compounds is "safe". When you are dealing with the remainder of your life and the everyday functions of your natural biology, most people aren't exactly interested in being part of a ground-breaking decision, until there is scientific evidence and practical evidence. There is enough known risk in doing it the right way, why increase the risk to try another way?

My question is regarding your so called, "right way." There is no right way to administer illegal and detrimental compounds. Further there will never be any scientific research on this unless something drastically changes regarding the legality of these compounds. Neither of these suggested ideas is new anyway, and both run the same risks, but the "right way" arguably runs greater risks as the compounds clear your system much later and therefore takes weeks to even start evening out your hormones, even after discontinued use.

This sounds like running gear for the sake of running gear. First off, why would you take steroids without taking a dosage high enough to achieve anythingnobody said you won't achieve anything, you are assuming this? As stated, any artificial test in your body will eventually(depends on how long you run it and at what dose) cause shut down or reduction in natural test. When you are under 25 the chance of that returning or returning to normal is much, much lower than once you are over 25. The guy who said you would be replacing 200mg/week with 100mg/week nailed it on the head. I would further that once you come off of it you will probably still only be producing 100mg/week for lifeand you are saying that this wouldn't happen with a real cycle? too many assumptions in this post. So you've screwed up your natural test production for what exactly?

Second, the reason young people want to take steroids is because they know nothing about diet and training. They haven't the vaguest concept of what those two things can do for their bodies at their age with their natural test levels. Young people are so much better served by learning about those two things and getting them in order than trying to shortcut with drugs, a shortcut which will fail I might add, as well as risking their long term health.

People who are not ready to use steroids are not ready, period. It doesn't mean they should use a small amount; it means they should use NONE. This goes 1,000x for teenagers and 100x for people under 25 in general.

you are creating an argument and attacking the one you created rather than addressing my argument. I am not advocating the use of drugs for children or anyone who has not got their diet or training in check. I am using young people as an example because they are people WHO SHOULDN'T, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, SHUT DOWN THEIR NATURAL PRODUCTION. this is the whole point in the thread. Rather than telling people who will inevitably cycle (because they are young and stupid) to run test because that is the safest way, we should maybe think of a better and less risky alternative to this dangerous practice. One that could possibly be fixed quickly if issues arrive, and one that may possibly minimize any shut down at all.

Both practices use the same pct method, but with oral only it will be more effective because the system is cleared of compounds quicker and you are shut down for less time.
Both practices run the same risk of lasting problems, orals only arguably run less of a risk.
Both practices can give you gains, orals only will arguably give you less gains.

So far marcus presents the only reason I see not to try low dosed oral compounds. Still looking for more reasons (not that one isn't enough, just trying to learn all I can).

[marcus300]

It does help a lot. None of the other arguments seem to hold much water because in both cases (low amounts of dbol vs full on cycles) you risk shutting down and damaging your hpta in the same way, but I would argue that the low dosed oral(or injectable i guess) only cycle has less of an impact on your hpta, and is also much less risky because orals will clear the system and a lasting effect is much less likely when you can clear the drugs from your system and use a pct compound in a matter of days. Further you could also use low doses of a pct compound to keep you "running"

However because the low doses of proposed anabolics still hold a risk, it is now to be determined whether the risk outweighs the possible benefit of using said compounds. I am guessing that there will be gains, but those gains could easily be ruined if the hpta does shut down. Hmmm what to do... thanks for the post Marcus.

Using compounds what are less suppressive will have a lesser effect on the HPTA and will take longer for shutdown to occur, remember if you use enough of the compound for a long enough peroid even the weaker steroids will cause shutdown. You can also get injectable's what clear your system very fast, that's just ester related and you cant run low dose PCT compounds to keep your natural test running while using steroids. If we are talking about someone young who isn't fully developed yet I wouldn't advice any kind of steroids and I would tell them to wait till he is reached peak testosterone levels and fully mature.

It is also impossible for anyone to run loads of steroids of any length of time and not to be shutdown or to have a negative effect their natural testosterone production, I dont care what you have been told its a complete lie.

[Twist]

If the dose is high enough to produce gains beyond what you can achieve naturally then it is high enough suppress or shut you down. If its suppressing you all your doing is replacing the suppressed T with an exogenous source. and if its shutting you down then your point is mute. either way it doesnt work. and for the record getting someone pregnant while on cycle is not an indication of being shut down or not.

It is not true that if the dose is high enough to produce gains then it is high enough to shut you down. That is simply not true. In this scenario we are not talking about replacing suppressed t with exogenous t because we are not injecting any t at all. So suppressed t would remain suppressed. I agree that getting someone pregnant while on cycle is not a direct indication of being fertile, but I believe they do go hand in hand. In a study men who were shut down were not fertile, further they remained shut down for about a year after the cycle finished, but most recovered after a year (could have been all but I don't remember). I don't want to site this study directly because I don't remember the details well enough. But if you have a sex drive, and you are fertile, you probably are not shut down (if you are not using test as a base of course).

The whole point of steroids is supraphysiological levels of hormones and those levels shut you down. what more is there?

Evidence to back this claim up? Further you can't have supraphysiological amounts of winstrol or dbol because that is not found in the body anyway.

there is a problem with bridging and nobody does that anymore. if the dosage is high enough to produce gains it is high enough to cause a negative feedback

People do bridge.

sorry i dont have a cool avatar or thousands of posts so i guess my points dont hold validity

No bro that is not true at all. Your posts seem to say the same thing and I just don't believe it. I welcome your input just as much as marcus or anyone else. I don't give a shit about post numbers as the most brilliant and interesting people don't have enough free time to go on a forum and rack up a high amount of posts.

[Twist]

double post

[HitIt]

you aren't the first and won't be the last person who thought they could trick their body.

[Twist]

Using compounds what are less suppressive will have a lesser effect on the HPTA and will take longer for shutdown to occur, remember if you use enough of the compound for a long enough peroid even the weaker steroids will cause shutdown. You can also get injectable's what clear your system very fast, that's just ester related and you cant run low dose PCT compounds to keep your natural test running while using steroids. If we are talking about someone young who isn't fully developed yet I wouldn't advice any kind of steroids and I would tell them to wait till he is reached peak testosterone levels and fully mature.

It is also impossible for anyone to run loads of steroids of any length of time and not to be shutdown or to have a negative effect their natural testosterone production, I dont care what you have been told its a complete lie.

I am not saying he runs tren deca compounds with no effect on his test, because he doesn't run those at all. but he does run winny, dbol, all kinds of ph and he has run 2 cycles with no pct and no drop in sex drive when he comes off or anything. I am not making this up. He is my best friend and I have monitored him 100% of the way. In fairness he has never gotten bloodwork done but his sex drive has always remained constant and he nevers shows any signs of low test ever. He might be an exception to the rule but I am saying that it is possible. I have also advised him never to run long cycles, and to ease into the dosage rather than jumping into it. I have also said to stop taking anything at the first sign of trouble and keep all pcts on hand just in case. Only time there was ever a slight issue was when he started to develop gyno (nipple tenderness), but he lowered the dose immediately and it disappeared.

As for the rest of the post, I agree that you cannot run compounds indefinitely without a shut down, and I agree it is dose dependent. I am just suggesting that a low dose run for a short time can produce gains with a much less of an effect on testosterone. I think someone had a log on this board of an equipoise only cycle, and it turned out ok. I didn't follow it though so I don't remember.

But why could you not run a low dose of a pct compound to keep from shutting down? Again, I don't know about all this stuff so I am asking to further my knowledge. Just seems that some hcg during a 3-4week dbol cycle wouldn't hurt but idk.

[Twist]

you aren't the first and won't be the last person who thought they could trick their body.

??? I'm not tricking my body... I'm on trt because my body was born ****ed up. And everyone who does steroids tricks their body. I am not implementing this on myself nor anyone else. But my buddy does it with great results and I follow him along the way and it works. I am guessing it will eventually cause a problem but it hasn't yet.

please don't crowd this thread with useless posts.

[voidofRoids]

The only thing I can say Twist, is go ingest oral anabolic steroids in low doses and come on back and fill everyone in on your results. Sounds comical to say the least.

[HitIt]

ok flame away

please don't crowd this thread with useless posts.

did i miss something? what you call trickery other people consider serious business

[marcus300]

I am not saying he runs tren deca compounds with no effect on his test, because he doesn't run those at all. but he does run winny, dbol, all kinds of ph and he has run 2 cycles with no pct and no drop in sex drive when he comes off or anything. I am not making this up. He is my best friend and I have monitored him 100% of the way. In fairness he has never gotten bloodwork done but his sex drive has always remained constant and he nevers shows any signs of low test ever. He might be an exception to the rule but I am saying that it is possible. I have also advised him never to run long cycles, and to ease into the dosage rather than jumping into it. I have also said to stop taking anything at the first sign of trouble and keep all pcts on hand just in case. Only time there was ever a slight issue was when he started to develop gyno (nipple tenderness), but he lowered the dose immediately and it disappeared.

As for the rest of the post, I agree that you cannot run compounds indefinitely without a shut down, and I agree it is dose dependent. I am just suggesting that a low dose run for a short time can produce gains with a much less of an effect on testosterone. I think someone had a log on this board of an equipoise only cycle, and it turned out ok. I didn't follow it though so I don't remember.

But why could you not run a low dose of a pct compound to keep from shutting down? Again, I don't know about all this stuff so I am asking to further my knowledge. Just seems that some hcg during a 3-4week dbol cycle wouldn't hurt but idk.

Exactly, your friend doesn't have bloodwork done so its impossible for you to say its doesn't effect his natural testosterone, going off your sex drive just isnt going make me believe he is unique and can still produce natural testosterone while taking any huge amounts of steroid/PH.

HCG will mimic LH in the testes which should result in an increase in endogenous testosterone which will hopefully prevent testicular dysfunction and atrophy, in many cases this will aid recovery of your HPTA, but while the body is being exposed to exogenous testosterone your HPTA will not recover full function thus wont release LH. Using HCG is a great way of prevention of any testicular dysfunction and increases the chances of recovery, but its not going to stop your HPTA from shutting down.

I also didn't say run cycle indefinitely, i said if you run enough of the compound for a long enough time you can shut down your natural testosterone. The example was the var study I mentioned ( again with every study there is a contradicting one) which if i remembered correctly within 5 days of low dose it will nearly half your natural testosterone, I will search my data base and send it to you, it will make interesting reading but again, ive seen the complete opposite regarding studies and shutdown of var so take what you please from studies!!

Please dont get me started on eq,

Please dont take this the wrong way because i am trying to answer your questions, but from the looks of things all you need is a good few meals down your neck and that will prodcue far more muscle without the side of any low dose steroids.

[Rizdizzle]

Nice thread. Its always nice to see threads that really bring out constructive discussions. These types of threads are how people who sit a read learn alot!

[Twist]

http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/.../full/23/5/684

this study shows high levels of testosterone SUPPORT sperm production

you can have supraphysiological doses of ANDROGENS and OESTROGENS which is what I am referring to.

yes they do. but their HPTA doesnt recover while they are bridging. Bridging is an old school theory that has long since been disproven.

"The present study confirms that CPA/TE administration induces profound sperm suppression. An increase in the dose of androgen resulted in less profound sperm suppression despite no difference in gonadotropin suppression. These data suggest that high testosterone levels can maintain sperm production in men."
Unless I misread the study, I just glanced over the abstract, it states clearly that Testosterone Enanthate combined with an anti-androgen "induces profound sperm suppression." Increasing the androgen to anti-androgen ratio results in less sperm suppression, however there is no comparison to healthy individuals sperm production vs sperm production in males undergoing testosterone replacement. My friend is an endocrinologist and it is common knowledge that trt suppresses if not eliminates, sperm production. Thank you for the post Stiflersmom, I would love to hear if I misinterpreted the study or if you have another one comparing sperm production in males on and off trt.

As far as bridging I think it is a bad idea to do when you want your hpta to recover. However if you are mirroring a bridge like dose without the previous and following compounds, it is just a low dose cycle. My query is involving this.

The only thing I can say Twist, is go ingest oral anabolic steroids in low doses and come on back and fill everyone in on your results. Sounds comical to say the least.

If you paid attention to my other post you would have noticed that I am on trt and clearly state that I am not planning on implementing this on myself at all. Other than health reasons, I don't take steroids (not to say I haven't a long time ago, and that I won't in the future). So even if I took a dbol only cycle I am still running a test base as I am on trt. It was stupid people like you who thought it was "comical" that the world was round. Please parrot, get off your perch and out of my thread. The other members have added much to my thread and are helping me learn about something I know little about. **** off.

you aren't the first and won't be the last person who thought they could trick their body.

^ I thought you were calling it trickery... Anyway whatever you want to call it, we are all doing the same thing.

did i miss something? what you call trickery other people consider serious business

Thank you to most of you for staying on point.

[voidofRoids]

If you paid attention to my other post you would have noticed that I am on trt and clearly state that I am not planning on implementing this on myself at all. Other than health reasons, I don't take steroids (not to say I haven't a long time ago, and that I won't in the future). So even if I took a dbol only cycle I am still running a test base as I am on trt. It was stupid people like you who thought it was "comical" that the world was round. Please parrot, get off your perch and out of my thread. The other members have added much to my thread and are helping me learn about something I know little about. **** off.

You're right, I haven't paid attention to your other posts: your posts lack substance, you lack maturity. You lack any sequential flow of conversation, you're defensive, and you make irrelevant inferences and analogies. If you want to learn, read the massive amount of documentation readily available on this website, and ask questions as they become relevant; as opposed to flame, argue, and propose obnoxious concepts (that if you had done a little reading would understand are obnoxious).

You, sir, have a lot of growing up to do. I wish you well.

[MACHINE5150]

i am astounded we are still discussing this.. do we have no life.. It has already been stated by every worthy vet that this theory is Bunk!!

[Jean Claude]

What I read somewhere:

If your natural testosterone production capacity is at 700, but for whatever reason, your body is only producing 600, a supplementation of testosterone that would bring your levels back to 700 will not shut down your system, because you are only returning to normal for your own body. Now if you take something that will raise it to 801, your body will recognize this and shut down or lower testosterone production. There are a number of reasons why your natural test production wouldn't be optimal: diet, health, alcohol, drugs, sleep deprivation, stress, etc.

What I've done:

I stole a few Testim 1% gels from my mom's work one time. It was a sample pack with a week's worth of testosterone with 50 mg tubes (one per day for 7 days). I used 3 tubes, dividing them in half, so for six days. That's 25 mg per day. I saw increases in strength and stamina in the gym. I was a horny goat too.. I wanted to f*ck Rosie Odonnel... no just kidding.. that would be painful. But you get the idea. I stopped after that 6 days and everything returned back to normal. I don't believe that I lowered my natural testosterone by just doing that for 6 days. I probably just raised my own natural levels back up to normal because for whatever the reason (maybe cause I smoke too much weed) my levels weren't optimum.

[Twist]

Exactly, your friend doesn't have bloodwork done so its impossible for you to say its doesn't effect his natural testosterone, going off your sex drive just isnt going make me believe he is unique and can still produce natural testosterone while taking any huge amounts of steroid/PH.
you are right, it is impossible to say. He is not unique, just a little different than say, me. If I were to take anything without test I would have no test at all (bloodwork to support it). You keep on saying huge, and I keep on saying low. Can you see the difference in our posts?

HCG will mimic LH in the testes which should result in an increase in endogenous testosterone which will hopefully prevent testicular dysfunction and atrophy, in many cases this will aid recovery of your HPTA, but while the body is being exposed to exogenous testosterone your HPTA will not recover full function thus wont release LH. Using HCG is a great way of prevention of any testicular dysfunction and increases the chances of recovery, but its not going to stop your HPTA from shutting down.
We are not talking about exposing the body to exogenous testosterone (right? dbol, eq etc but no test). I see the similarity and how they both will shut you down, some more than others, but would a compound like hcg shot 1-2 times (for example, idk the hcg protocol) during the 4 week duration of say a dbol only cycle not help at all?

I also didn't say run cycle indefinitely, i said if you run enough of the compound for a long enough time you can shut down your natural testosterone. The example was the var study I mentioned ( again with every study there is a contradicting one) which if i remembered correctly within 5 days of low dose it will nearly half your natural testosterone, I will search my data base and send it to you, it will make interesting reading but again, ive seen the complete opposite regarding studies and shutdown of var so take what you please from studies!!
I see the problem we come across with the contradicting studies. I would most likely fall into the "shut down after 5 days" and my buddy would fall into the "not shut down at all, or not much" category. I am advocating finding out which one of these individuals you are. If you are one of the shut down after 5 days individuals, your cycles should have a test base; if you are not, it may be possible to run cycles at low doses for short durations without needing a test base.

Please dont get me started on eq, I won't because that is not the point of the discussion

Please dont take this the wrong way because i am trying to answer your questions, but from the looks of things all you need is a good few meals down your neck and that will produce far more muscle without the side of any low dose steroids.rude and completely off topic

Why do you people think I am planning on taking low doses of anything? I am on trt, do you not know what that means? I am simply asking for information regarding the recommendation that vets, and their followers, make to everyone who wants to run a cycle. I am simply questioning the rationale for this.

The question is, for those who seem to miss it:
Why is it necessary to tell people that the only way to go is a cycle including testosterone? The risks are the same on low dosed cycles without test, as they are on cycles with test, the only difference appears to lie in gains (worse in low doses) and in sides/lasting negative effects (test cycle loses) and in time needed in pct (kind of a toss up, but probably test cycle loses because of the duration and compounds used, unless it is very short esters run for a short period, in which it is more equal).

As marcus stated, a good reason for not doing dbol or eq or anavar etc, is because the risks could far outweigh any minimal gains you may see from the low dosed cycle.

[marcus300]

Read my first post because you clearly didn't read it, and please research what steroids are. Best of luck

[Twist]

come on man read the lines after what you bolded CPA suppresses the actions of testosterone (and its metabolite dihydrotestosterone) on tissues. It acts by blocking androgen receptors which prevents androgens from binding to them and suppresses luteinizing hormone (which in turn reduces testosterone levels).

An increase in the dose of androgen resulted in less profound sperm suppression despite no difference in gonadotropin suppression. These data suggest that high testosterone levels can maintain sperm production in men."


i bolded the appropriate part.

and second of all your endocrinologist friend should know testosterone has been extensively studied as a male contraceptive and was deemed ineffective.

Im not sure why your still arguing your point.



so your acknowledging even a low dose is suppressive or it wouldnt hinder HPTA recovery.....yes I am saying it can be. I also wouldn't recommend using anything at a time when you want you hpta to recover
we are talking in circles here

This group is comparing people taking two compounds to people taking only one compound. The off topic discussion we are having is related to people taking nothing and their sperm count, to people taking trt and their sperm count. Anyway as interesting as I find this, I would rather talk about the topic at hand.

You're right, I haven't paid attention to your other posts: your posts lack substance, you lack maturity. You lack any sequential flow of conversation, you're defensive, and you make irrelevant inferences and analogies. If you want to learn, read the massive amount of documentation readily available on this website, and ask questions as they become relevant; as opposed to flame, argue, and propose obnoxious concepts (that if you had done a little reading would understand are obnoxious).
You, sir, have a lot of growing up to do. I wish you well.

Well if you are not going to pay attention to my posts and you are not going to provide anything in relation to the question at hand please don't post.

i am astounded we are still discussing this.. do we have no life.. It has already been stated by every worthy vet that this theory is Bunk!!

You don't have to comment ya know. Just simply don't click on the title.

What I read somewhere:

If your natural testosterone production capacity is at 700, but for whatever reason, your body is only producing 600, a supplementation of testosterone that would bring your levels back to 700 will not shut down your system, because you are only returning to normal for your own body. Now if you take something that will raise it to 801, your body will recognize this and shut down or lower testosterone production. There are a number of reasons why your natural test production wouldn't be optimal: diet, health, alcohol, drugs, sleep deprivation, stress, etc.

What I've done:

I stole a few Testim 1% gels from my mom's work one time. It was a sample pack with a week's worth of testosterone with 50 mg tubes (one per day for 7 days). I used 3 tubes, dividing them in half, so for six days. That's 25 mg per day. I saw increases in strength and stamina in the gym. I was a horny goat too.. I wanted to f*ck Rosie Odonnel... no just kidding.. that would be painful. But you get the idea. I stopped after that 6 days and everything returned back to normal. I don't believe that I lowered my natural testosterone by just doing that for 6 days. I probably just raised my own natural levels back up to normal because for whatever the reason (maybe cause I smoke too much weed) my levels weren't optimum.

this is addressing the supplementation of testosterone. I am talking about using something other than test.

[MACHINE5150]

Twist is one of those guys who will read something and only take the information that he wants out of what he reads and then quote that part to support his own arguement..

maybe if we ignore him he will go away..

[Twist]

Taking]steroids no matter what they are will interfere with your own bodies hormone production because more or less they are all synthetic forms of Testosterone. Our HPTA regulates our bodies via many feedback loops so using hormones what cause shutdown or suppression will have an adverse effect on your natural production. If we take anavar for example which is classed as a weak steroid, there are studies what claim low dose Var will not shutdown your HPTA and infact will keep your testosterone within normal levels, then on the other side we have further studies what claim low dose var for just 5 days will significantly reduce your natural testosterone. [/B]

Many studies on humans regarding hormones contradict each other but I would say more or less any kind of steroid will cause suppression of some kind if you take enough of it for a long enough period you will require a PCT. Another issue you have to take in consideration is the actual amount of steroid you will be taking, in your theory you state low dose but I would have to ask is this low dose really going to produce any kind of benefit over your testosterone you naturally produce and is it worth any kind of suppression of your HPTA when the results are going to be very minimal or infact zero with regards to muscle tissue.

So by the first statement are you trying to tell me that it is not possible to take a low amount of steroids without being shut down, therefore making testosterone a necessary base? Sorry if I don't understand, but that is what I am here for.

I am simply wondering if there is a way to undercut the second bolded point. By taking a small amount for a short period, would it be possible to make gains without using test as a base?

[Twist]

Twist is one of those guys who will read something and only take the information that he wants out of what he reads and then quote that part to support his own arguement..

maybe if we ignore him he will go away..

Show me where it says that taking a low dose for a short amount of time is guaranteed to shut your body down and you will have lasting repercussions therefore making a cycle like this a terrible idea.

[marcus300]

What do you think Winston,var,dbol and eq are?

Please re read my post.

[Twist]

double post.