So did i do the right thing??

**lew** · 10-26-2010, 06:40 AM

I have been advised the below cycle by my PT who also is a former bodybuilder and also trains and advises his clients on cycles etc.

Week 1-8 Test E 400mg per week (shot 200mg twice a week)
Week 1-20 GH 5iu's per day (5 on / 2 off)

Week 3-8 HCG 250iu x 2 per week
Week 10 - Clomid / Nolva ???

I was about to pin my first shot this morning and i just coudnt do it, been worrying last couple of days ever since i placed the order and need some expert advise before i start the course if i have this right or not.

1. Im not sure if 8 weeks is long enough for test E?
2. Not sure if i should run HGC or any other combating drug through the cycle? is this over kill?
3. Should my PCT consist of Clomid and Nolva plus HCG again is this overkill?

Im 31, 185/187Lb 13/14% BF.

So much conflicting information so thought i would ask the experts who have actual real life experience. I need to know how you would construct your first cycle all over again. I have been reading the educational threads and also folling the Vets and experts of the boards threads and posts so hopefully you will chim in.

Your help and input is much appreciated

Lew

***D7M*** · 10-26-2010, 06:42 AM

How tall are you?

How long have you been training?

**sigman roid** · 10-26-2010, 06:45 AM

How tall are you?

First off alot of people run 8 week cycles of test so thats nothing to worry about,As for hcg i would only run it if it was needed which you wont know until your on cycle, usally hcg(if needed) would be run on cycle and not during pct so just run nolva/clomid for pct.

**sigman roid** · 10-26-2010, 06:46 AM

Oh and as for the GH i would not run it during your first cycle.

**lew** · 10-26-2010, 06:48 AM

Originally Posted by D7M

How tall are you?

How long have you been training?

Im 5ft 11 and training on and off since my 20's i would say serious training3/4 times per week for last 3 years

**MaNiCC** · 10-26-2010, 06:52 AM

Imo more could be gained naturally

**lew** · 10-26-2010, 06:54 AM

Originally Posted by sigman roid

How tall are you?

First off alot of people run 8 week cycles of test so thats nothing to worry about,As for hcg i would only run it if it was needed which you wont know until your on cycle, usally hcg(if needed) would be run on cycle and not during pct so just run nolva/clomid for pct.

Should i extend the 8 weeks is this too short? say 10/12 weeks? also i appreciate the advise about HCG its just difficult to gauge having not run a cycle before if it was needed or not, what would be the signs. The reason i put HCG is reading Swifto thread of HCG throughout cycle.

**baseline_9** · 10-26-2010, 06:54 AM

Originally Posted by sigman roid

How tall are you?

First off alot of people run 8 week cycles of test so thats nothing to worry about,As for hcg i would only run it if it was needed which you wont know until your on cycle, usally hcg(if needed) would be run on cycle and not during pct so just run nolva/clomid for pct.

IMO HCG is needed

And should be run throughout cycle and up until PCT

I dont know what you mean by ' As for hcg i would only run it if it was needed which you wont know until your on cycle '

**sigman roid** · 10-26-2010, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by baseline_9

IMO HCG is needed

And should be run throughout cycle and up until PCT

I dont know what you mean by ' As for hcg i would only run it if it was needed which you wont know until your on cycle '

I mean exactly what i said" HCG in my opinion should be run if needed" not just for the sake of it

How can you advise him to use hcg when you dont know if he will need it or not? Hcg is not a must on cycle and he wont know if its needed until he's on cycle,Whats so hard to understand?

**baseline_9** · 10-26-2010, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by sigman roid

I mean exactly what i said" HCG in my opinion should be run if needed" not just for the sake of it

How can you advise him to use hcg when you dont know if he will need it or not? Hcg is not a must on cycle and he wont know if its needed until he's on cycle,Whats so hard to understand?

In your opinion when should HCG be used then?

So he starts a cycle and what makes him decide that he needs HCG?

**lew** · 10-26-2010, 07:06 AM

Originally Posted by baseline_9

IMO HCG is needed

And should be run throughout cycle and up until PCT

I dont know what you mean by ' As for hcg i would only run it if it was needed which you wont know until your on cycle '

You can probably understand my confusion with conflicting opinions. Obviously as i have never run a cycle only researched i do not have any real life experince therfore it is all 'textbook' information i have gained which in life does noty always carry over to real lide experience.

Im 31 so through life experince i thought best to hold off until i am happy with what i am doing is correct. I just wish there was a 100% correct answer on th ecorrect way to cycle and also to come off in a safe way which has the least possible side effects or long term damage. As much as i woudl love to drop BF and gain LBM i would like to do this as safe as possible.

Be great if someone could lay out how they would run the cycle from experience

***D7M*** · 10-26-2010, 07:08 AM

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...ner-cycle-info

Read that link, and all links contained in it,

and get back to us with any questions.

**NMacFar** · 10-26-2010, 07:14 AM

I would go 12 weeks minimum on Test E. Since this is your first cycle, 12 weeks would be good for you.

**sigman roid** · 10-26-2010, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by baseline_9

In your opinion when should HCG be used then?

So he starts a cycle and what makes him decide that he needs HCG?

For instance i dont use hcg as my balls never shirink to a point where i feel i need it,he wont know this until he's on cycle thats not to say he wont need it i just wouldnt run it from the off..jmo.

**MBMETC** · 10-26-2010, 07:18 AM

baseline how did you come to discover you needed to use hcg , not looking to elevate the situation just playing devils advocate.

i think the point siggy is trying to make is atrophy doesn't affect everybody the same way and many are not affected to the point where they feel hcg is a neccasary, its a try and see thing

**baseline_9** · 10-26-2010, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by sigman roid

For instance i dont use hcg as my balls never shirink to a point where i feel i need it,he wont know this until he's on cycle thats not to say he wont need it i just wouldnt run it from the off..jmo.

Originally Posted by MBMETC

baseline how did you come to discover you needed to use hcg , not looking to elevate the situation just playing devils advocate.

i think the point siggy is trying to make is atrophy doesn't affect everybody the same way and many are not affected to the point where they feel hcg is a neccasary, its a try and see thing

Im not sure that I believe atrophy/ no atrophy is a good indicator of LH shutdown

IMO the most important part of using AAS responsibly is recovery

Recovering the HPTA to me is just as important as the cycle its self, no one wants there Natty Testosterone production to decline prematurley.

That is why IMO HCG should be used while on cycle

People out there that use HCG to keep there Testicle size do not realise the bigger picture of what the HCG is actually doing

HCG is used to mimic leutenizing hormone and basically tell the Testicle to keep producing Testosterone, maintaining endogenous testosterone prodction and Intra-Testicular Testosterone.

When PCT comes around the Testicles are already up and working and therefore a quicker/fuller recovery may be possible

**sigman roid** · 10-26-2010, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by baseline_9

Im not sure that I believe atrophy/ no atrophy is a good indicator of LH shutdown

IMO the most important part of using AAS responsibly is recovery

Recovering the HPTA to me is just as important as the cycle its self, no one wants there Natty Testosterone production to decline prematurley.

That is why IMO HCG should be used while on cycle

People out there that use HCG to keep there Testicle size do not realise the bigger picture of what the HCG is actually doing

HCG is used to mimic leutenizing hormone and basically tell the Testicle to keep producing Testosterone, maintaining endogenous testosterone prodction and Intra-Testicular Testosterone.

When PCT comes around the Testicles are already up and working and therefore a quicker/fuller recovery may be possible

We could go on and on with this so lets just agree to disagree and move on.

**lew** · 10-26-2010, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by baseline_9

Im not sure that I believe atrophy/ no atrophy is a good indicator of LH shutdown

IMO the most important part of using AAS responsibly is recovery

Recovering the HPTA to me is just as important as the cycle its self, no one wants there Natty Testosterone production to decline prematurley.

That is why IMO HCG should be used while on cycle

People out there that use HCG to keep there Testicle size do not realise the bigger picture of what the HCG is actually doing

HCG is used to mimic leutenizing hormone and basically tell the Testicle to keep producing Testosterone, maintaining endogenous testosterone prodction and Intra-Testicular Testosterone.

When PCT comes around the Testicles are already up and working and therefore a quicker/fuller recovery may be possible

Baseline interesting and thank you for the formal explanation. Have you ever run a cycle without HCG and also a cycle with HCG during, just wondered if you noticed a big difference?

Any side effects using HCG and is this protocol used from day 1 of the cycle, my PT mentioned it would be a waste of time using HCG until around 3 weeks in when the long esther test kicks in

**MBMETC** · 10-26-2010, 07:39 AM

thank you for takeing the time to explain your view

**baseline_9** · 10-26-2010, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by lew

Baseline interesting and thank you for the formal explanation. Have you ever run a cycle without HCG and also a cycle with HCG during, just wondered if you noticed a big difference?

Any side effects using HCG and is this protocol used from day 1 of the cycle, my PT mentioned it would be a waste of time using HCG until around 3 weeks in when the long esther test kicks in

My personal experience is invalid as I dont have Blood work to back anything up and I dont nought experience to comment.

You make your mind up, read into all options, DO NOT BE CONVINCED BY ME OR ANYONE, make ur own mind up

My opinion is that people who think HCG is only an atropy prevention product are massivley overlooking exactly what HCG is doing

Im not using HCG to stop my balls turning into peanuts (although this side effect is nice) , im using it because from what I have read it will help to put my body in a better position for recovery when PCT comes around

**Swifto** · 10-26-2010, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by sigman roid

I mean exactly what i said" HCG in my opinion should be run if needed" not just for the sake of it

How can you advise him to use hcg when you dont know if he will need it or not? Hcg is not a must on cycle and he wont know if its needed until he's on cycle,Whats so hard to understand?

Its needed and thats about it. There isnt much more to discuss.

The data and science certainly doesnt back your uneducated opinion of using it, "if needed".

If you knew anything about testicular dysfunction and the net effect of NO stimulation for extended peroids, you'de be using it. The only way to avoid testicular dysfunction is to address the testes directly. That would be by using HCG or HMG.

Have you used HCG on cycle? If so, I guarantee your PCT was far easier.

Have you taken the time to read my thread, "HCG - How important is it?"?

Originally Posted by sigman roid

For instance i dont use hcg as my balls never shirink to a point where i feel i need it,he wont know this until he's on cycle thats not to say he wont need it i just wouldnt run it from the off..jmo.

Testicular size is NOT an indication of function.

Atrophy does not mean your testes are functioning fine and your not suffering from testicular dysfunction.

Originally Posted by baseline_9

Im not sure that I believe atrophy/ no atrophy is a good indicator of LH shutdown

IMO the most important part of using AAS responsibly is recovery

Recovering the HPTA to me is just as important as the cycle its self, no one wants there Natty Testosterone production to decline prematurley.

That is why IMO HCG should be used while on cycle

People out there that use HCG to keep there Testicle size do not realise the bigger picture of what the HCG is actually doing

HCG is used to mimic leutenizing hormone and basically tell the Testicle to keep producing Testosterone, maintaining endogenous testosterone prodction and Intra-Testicular Testosterone.

When PCT comes around the Testicles are already up and working and therefore a quicker/fuller recovery may be possible

Correct, well done.

Originally Posted by sigman roid

We could go on and on with this so lets just agree to disagree and move on.

Unless you have some data supporting your theory of using HCG "when needed", testicular dysfunction not existing, the testes not being the weak link in HPTA restoration, it not being necessary and one of the most important aspects of using AAS? I wouldn't even bother replying and I'd use this as nothing short a lesson (by me) in HCG use and its importance when using androgens.

**MBMETC** · 10-26-2010, 07:50 AM

Because of its similarity to LH, hCG can also be used clinically to induce ovulation in the ovaries as well as testosterone production in the testes. As the most abundant biological source is women who are presently pregnant, some organizations collect urine from pregnant women to extract hCG for use in fertility treatment.

source wikipedia

**lew** · 10-26-2010, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by Swifto

Its needed and thats about it. There isnt much more to discuss.

The data and science certainly doesnt back your uneducated opinion of using it, "if needed".

If you knew anything about testicular dysfunction and the net effect of NO stimulation for extended peroids, you'de be using it. The only way to avoid testicular dysfunction is to address the testes directly. That would be by using HCG or HMG.

Have you used HCG on cycle? If so, I guarantee your PCT was far easier.

Have you taken the time to read my thread, "HCG - How important is it?"?

Testicular size is NOT an indication of function.

Atrophy does not mean your testes are functioning fine and your not suffering from testicular dysfunction.

Correct, well done.

Unless you have some data supporting your theory of using HCG "when needed", testicular dysfunction not existing, the testes not being the weak link in HPTA restoration, it not being necessary and one of the most important aspects of using AAS? I wouldn't even bother replying and I'd use this as nothing short a lesson (by me) in HCG use and its importance when using androgens.

Swifto - thank you very much for the information and taking the time to discuss. From your thread on HGC use i gathered the information about running HGC 250iu twice a week.

1. Is the amount of HGC used dependednt on the amount of test used during the cycle? is 250 iu x 2 week too much since i will be using 400mg of test a week or is this completely irrelavant and the doseage of HGC stays the same no matter what the dosage of test is?

2. Do you advise HGC to be run form the very first week of any cycle? - my PT advised as the Test E takes longer to be in your system i should run HGC around week 3. As i have no experience and my only view point to agree with his opinion is PCT is started after 18 days so if i flip this around it may take the test 18 days to start shutting down the HPTA - therefore starting at week 3 would ring true HOWEVER as mentioned i have no knowledge or experience.................your input would be apprecaited?

Thanks

**Swifto** · 10-26-2010, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by lew

Swifto - thank you very much for the information and taking the time to discuss. From your thread on HGC use i gathered the information about running HGC 250iu twice a week.

1. Is the amount of HGC used dependednt on the amount of test used during the cycle? is 250 iu x 2 week too much since i will be using 400mg of test a week or is this completely irrelavant and the doseage of HGC stays the same no matter what the dosage of test is?

No. Once your shutdown, your shutdown. 250ius 2x week is fine for me, but older guys (30+) may need more. 500ius 2x week, or 250ius 3x week is also used.

250ius 2s week is a starting dose.

2. Do you advise HGC to be run form the very first week of any cycle? - my PT advised as the Test E takes longer to be in your system i should run HGC around week 3. As i have no experience and my only view point to agree with his opinion is PCT is started after 18 days so if i flip this around it may take the test 18 days to start shutting down the HPTA - therefore starting at week 3 would ring true HOWEVER as mentioned i have no knowledge or experience.................your input would be apprecaited?

You can start at week 2 or 3 as it takes a few weeks for endogenous testosterone to reach hypogondal levels, but I dont suggest that. Week 1 through to a few days out from PCT is what I sugest. But take 2-3 weeks off every 12 or so week as it will build estrogen and progesterone levels over time.

Thanks

bolds......

**baseline_9** · 10-26-2010, 08:42 AM

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...dated-08-12-09)

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...-A-with-Swifto....

Some good links for you to read

One thing I will say is that your 185 @ 5'11"

I would try and gain a little more weight naurally

While your gaining weight you can educate urself and learn everything inside and out before u jump on a cycle

**sigman roid** · 10-26-2010, 10:58 AM

Swifto im not gonna turn this into a arguement with you as i respect your opinion,as i say to each there own,Oh and i take lessons from no one.

**Swifto** · 10-26-2010, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by sigman roid

Swifto im not gonna turn this into a arguement with you as i respect your opinion,as i say to each there own,Oh and i take lessons from no one.

I'm not here to turn it into an argument with you mate.

But with almost 25,000 posts your opinion here is respected here more than the average member.

Call it a lesson, call it anything, or anything you dont want to call it, but you just learnt something.

I learn something new everyday from other member's and data I look at. There is no problem in that, I just pointed it out to you.

**sigman roid** · 10-26-2010, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by Swifto

I'm not here to turn it into an argument with you mate.

But with almost 25,000 posts your opinion here is respected here more than the average member.

Call it a lesson, call it anything, or anything you dont want to call it, but you just learnt something.

I learn something new everyday from other member's and data I look at. There is no problem in that, I just pointed it out to you.

No problem at all swifto as i say i respect your opinion and still do,were good mate.

**Swifto** · 10-26-2010, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by sigman roid

No problem at all swifto as i say i respect your opinion and still do,were good mate.

If you havent read it, its here: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...mportant+is+it

It will no doubt make your PCT easier and should increase your chances of attaining additional gains.