Some advice needed prior to first cycle

[joe doe]

Hey guys!

Just want to begin with saying its a great forum youve got here, one of the best on the web when it comes to clear, objective info on AAS. I've been spending the past couple of months reading up on this and a couple of other boards in preperations for a first cycle, and have drawn up some scetches for possible cycles, training regiments, and diets.

There are a few things that are bugging me, however.. i thought i'd try to get them straight before posting any first cycles for reviews and comments, that i might adjust them if needed.

For starters there seems to be some debate regarding the use of more then one compound at a time for first cycles. Some argue that first cycles should contain test alone, while others seem to think its perfectly fine to combine it with other substances, like deca. (although i guess most argue test only).
What do you guys think? Is it a bad idea to run for example testosterone enanthate and nandrolone dacanoate simultaneously in a starting cycle? And most importantly, why? Because it seems to me people rarely say why they think its best to stick with test alone or not.

Secondly, theres the issue of cycle duration. this is another point where opinions differ. Some say a first cycle of for example test e / test e + deca should be no less then 10-12 weeks, other claim that 8 weeks is more than enough. Again, any input would be very welcome.

My stats:
Age: 23
Height: 192 cm
Weight: 84kg - 185lbs
BF: 12-14 %
Working out regularly the past 3 years, as well as some on and off for couple of years before that.
Goal of cycle would be to go up some 10-15 lbs.

[SlimmerMe]

Welcome....since 23 ....
please try to EAT for a year first to gain 10-15 pounds

[MBMETC]

welcome and if you have been reading you know at 23 you are still considered on the young side, that being said we can answer your questions because you seem to want more understanding and no one can fault you for that.
test only cycle is recomended so you will see how your body reacts as far as side affects go, if you start to add more compounds you wont know which is giving you the side effects leaving you guessing how to control them. second cycle duration depends on the cycle , test for example has a shorted ester (prop) and longer esters (cyp and entanate) a shorter cycle (8 weeks) prop would be recomended for the fast releasing ester allowing you to achieve gains much faster than with e or c which really strt to get going at weeks 4-5 so to stop at week 8 when it is really kicking doesnt make sense.
i hope this helps keep reading and hold off on cycle plans for 2 more years and you will be plenty knowladgeable to run a sucessful cycle.
good luck

[joe doe]

Thanks for the reply slim, helpful as it was...


mbmetc, you raise valid point. i know that some people would consider this to be too young an age to cycle, but thats exactly it, its what you consider to be too young. there are others who would say 21+ is okay, others hold that its 23+ others again 25-26. There will always be risks involved with cycling steroids, espc a first cycle. Will the risks be greater than if i wait 14 months? maybe.. but i feel its a risk i can live with. Still i thank you for the info and the concern. Now regarding the multiple compounds, i see your point. Does this mean that you would not recommend combining test e and deca for a first cycle? From what i've learned one of the reasons alot of people include deca in a starting test e cycle is because of its very low estrogenic potential, which means it is unlikely to produce estrogenic sides like the test e?

[SlimmerMe]

Have you read this thread by Marcus?

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...g-and-Steroids

[MBMETC]

[QUOTE=joe doe;5431860]Thanks for the reply slim, helpful as it was...


mbmetc, you raise valid point. i know that some people would consider this to be too young an age to cycle, but thats exactly it, its what you consider to be too young. there are others who would say 21+ is okay, others hold that its 23+ others again 25-26. There will always be risks involved with cycling steroids, espc a first cycle. Will the risks be greater than if i wait 14 months? maybe.. but i feel its a risk i can live with. Still i thank you for the info and the concern. Now regarding the multiple compounds, i see your point. Does this mean that you would not recommend combining test e and deca for a first cycle? From what i've learned one of the reasons alot of people include deca in a starting test e cycle is because of its very low estrogenic potential,[B] which means it is unlikely to produce estrogenic sides like the test e?

correct but there is the risk of progesterone related side effects as well as acne and water retention

[joe doe]

Have you read this thread by Marcus?

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...g-and-Steroids



Yes, i have, and i have taken it under consideration. Like i stated in my previous post, i am well aware that there may be some extra risks involved. However the questions i asked were not reagarding your opinion of my age, nor does my age have much to do with the particular questions in my original post. So i must say i am at a loss as to why you are so intent on focusing on it.

[MBMETC]

Have you read this thread by Marcus?

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...g-and-Steroids



Yes, i have, and i have taken it under consideration. Like i stated in my previous post, i am well aware that there may be some extra risks involved. However the questions i asked were not reagarding your opinion of my age, nor does my age have much to do with the particular questions in my original post. So i must say i am at a loss as to why you are so intent on focusing on it.

slimmer, like everyone else here is interested in the well being of other members. and your age is a concern i understand that eveybody develops at their own rate and at 25 we can safley assume the endocrine sysyem is fully matured.

[joe doe]

I can understand that, and i appreciate that sentiment. Still, like you said yourself, we're all different, and it all boils down to what level of risk one deems acceptable.

[MACHINE5150]

regardless of age i think that you can gain another 10-15lbs naturally in the next year if you get your diet down.. you are over six foot tall and only weigh 185lbs.. granted you ave a lower than average BF, you should still be able to get to 200lbs by getting a proper diet down. If for no other reason than to prove us wrong, post up your sample diet on a work out day with your BMR and TDEE (google bmr calculator).. break down grams of protein, fat and carbs and total calories.. you can find all that info on nutrionaldata dot com.. take thirty or forty five minutes to do this and we will take three times that to critique your diet...

The reason i am saying this is this.. I would say almost 24 you might be alright to do AAS, and even that it might be okay to stack compounds, but you will lose everything you gain with in a couple months if you do not have your diet down correctly.. you need to eat properly.. if you look at the natural competitors you will see how huge they get with food and training alone.. I am not knocking you, but my brother is that size and he hasn't lifted a weight in his life.. Diet is more important than training and AAS combined..

[SlimmerMe]

^^^^ exactly.....I have an idea...why not go over to the diet gurus in the diet forum and start a new thread and get them to bulk you up for the next year...and then go for it! Please....and you will get even BIGGER with this plan since what they will have you do is to build a strong foundation which once you add the juice then WATCH OUT!!! what 'cha think?

Diet Questions is the name of the Forum....they are waiting for you.....

[OldManRiver]

regardless of age i think that you can gain another 10-15lbs naturally in the next year if you get your diet down.. you are over six foot tall and only weigh 185lbs.. granted you ave a lower than average BF, you should still be able to get to 200lbs by getting a proper diet down. If for no other reason than to prove us wrong, post up your sample diet on a work out day with your BMR and TDEE (google bmr calculator).. break down grams of protein, fat and carbs and total calories.. you can find all that info on nutrionaldata dot com.. take thirty or forty five minutes to do this and we will take three times that to critique your diet...

The reason i am saying this is this.. I would say almost 24 you might be alright to do AAS, and even that it might be okay to stack compounds, but you will lose everything you gain with in a couple months if you do not have your diet down correctly.. you need to eat properly.. if you look at the natural competitors you will see how huge they get with food and training alone.. I am not knocking you, but my brother is that size and he hasn't lifted a weight in his life.. Diet is more important than training and AAS combined..

X2!
Hey Joe, it seems you have recieved all the advice I would havE given you, and the consenus is that there is still room for improvement naturally. Just have some patience and wait a couple years. Just do a TON of research in the meantime and become extremely knowledgable on aas. You will thank us all in the long run. 

[kleaver]

all those answers you wanted on aas can be found in the educational threads. read the profiles of every compound you are interested in. a lot of the info you want will be in there

[joe doe]

"regardless of age i think that you can gain another 10-15lbs naturally in the next year if you get your diet down.. you are over six foot tall and only weigh 185lbs.. granted you ave a lower than average BF, you should still be able to get to 200lbs by getting a proper diet down. If for no other reason than to prove us wrong, post up your sample diet on a work out day with your BMR and TDEE (google bmr calculator).. break down grams of protein, fat and carbs and total calories.. you can find all that info on nutrionaldata dot com.. take thirty or forty five minutes to do this and we will take three times that to critique your diet...

The reason i am saying this is this.. I would say almost 24 you might be alright to do AAS, and even that it might be okay to stack compounds, but you will lose everything you gain with in a couple months if you do not have your diet down correctly.. you need to eat properly.. if you look at the natural competitors you will see how huge they get with food and training alone.. I am not knocking you, but my brother is that size and he hasn't lifted a weight in his life.. Diet is more important than training and AAS combined.. "



I agree with you that diet is everything. Since you seem to make some constructive points i went and typed over one of the diets that i try to follow:


Food Amount Protein (g) Carbs (g) Fat (g) Kcal

breakfast Eggs 50g 6.2 0 5.1 71.5
oats (large, raw) 100g 13 61 7 370
Milk 3dl 9.9 14.1 4.5 138
banana 1 1.1 18.1 0.3 83
whey protein 60g 48.3 9 2.7 233

Lunch ground beef 200g 36 0 13 380
pasta 100g 12 76 1.5 370


snack random fruit


dinner chicken filet 200g 55.8 0 2.6 246
pasta 150g 18 114 2.25 555


post-workout whey protein 60g 48.3 9 2.7 233
supplement oats (large, raw) 100g 13 61 7 370
milk 3dl 9.9 14.1 4.5 138


2nd dinner Salmon 150g 31.8 4.2 13.8 268.5
rice 100g 7.5 79.5 0.7 354


pre-sleep casein protein 25g 21.5 0.45 0.9 90
supplement oats (large, raw) 50g 6.5 30.5 3.5 185
(optional) milk 2dl 9.9 14.1 4.5 138

protein carbs fat Kcal
Grand total 348.7 505.05 76.55 4223
BMR: 2027.35
TDEE: 3142

I also take supplements of omega 3, and throw a fruit or to into the diet schedule randomly as i see nescesary.

Now ofcourse i would be lying if i said i have followed this diet like a religion during the course of the years ive been lifting. i can however say that i have spent most of the time on this diet (or one very similar) Around this time last year i was at bout 194lbs. i did however have a far higher body fat percentage then i do now, so i swithced my training regimens to include some moderately intensive cardio aswell as cutting back on the calories abit. i did this to see how fast i could get rid of the subdermal layers of fat and gain some better definition. In about 3 months i was down to aprox 180 lbs. since then i have been careful with going up to much i weight to fast.

You say that i could go up some 15 lbs naturally in a year. And you are right.. in a way.. i could easily increase my bodyweight by 15 lbs and then some by changing my workouts and maybe upping the amounts on that diet a notch. but those 15 lbs will not be muscle mass as you must know, it will be maybe 5-6 lbs muscles (this under optimal coditions, as you know, there are genetic limits to how much lean mass one can gain per year naturally) and the rest will be fat. Now as far as i am concerned AAS are a tool like any other and cyclng can help me gain that lean muscle mass alot faster. Since i am no stranger to diets and diet plans, i am reasonably confident i could keep most of my gains post cycle.

[joe doe]

^^^^ exactly.....I have an idea...why not go over to the diet gurus in the diet forum and start a new thread and get them to bulk you up for the next year...and then go for it! Please....and you will get even BIGGER with this plan since what they will have you do is to build a strong foundation which once you add the juice then WATCH OUT!!! what 'cha think?

Diet Questions is the name of the Forum....they are waiting for you.....

I think that you mean well with this advice, and so i am grateful for it. the reason i am here and not on the diet forums however, is because i feel i know all i need to regarding diets and diet plans ( or close enough to it anyway) Getting bigger is never a problem. Getting bigger without 85% of of the gains simply being body fat, thats the tricky thing.

all those answers you wanted on aas can be found in the educational threads. read the profiles of every compound you are interested in. a lot of the info you want will be in there

The reason i asked these questions was because i had a hard time finding theanswers in those threads. its possible that they are there, but with a forum as extensive as this one, certain specific info can be hard to find.

[SlimmerMe]

I think that you mean well with this advice, and so i am grateful for it. the reason i am here and not on the diet forums however, is because i feel i know all i need to regarding diets and diet plans ( or close enough to it anyway) Getting bigger is never a problem. Getting bigger without 85% of of the gains simply being body fat, thats the tricky thing.



The reason i asked these questions was because i had a hard time finding theanswers in those threads. its possible that they are there, but with a forum as extensive as this one, certain specific info can be hard to find.

I do mean well. Here is the thing: if you change or add just a few changes bit by bit for the next year with the diet gurus in the diet forum who specialize in adding weight without the fat then you will be WAY ahead of the game once you start down the path of steroids. This is because right now at 23 you are peaking still with your own hormones and to take advantage of this while you can do so is smart and will PAY OFF tremendously in the long run...then you actually will be totally grateful and so glad you listened because THE SECRET IS TO GAIN AS MUCH AS YOU CAN NATURALLY AND THEN JUICE!

Please go over to the diet forum and start a thread with the above food you eat and tell them your specific goals. They will tweak what you have. Remember: 1 pound a month of lean mass is 12 pounds of good looking mass a year later. THEN go for it!

[kleaver]

Hey guys!

Is it a bad idea to run for example testosterone enanthate and nandrolone dacanoate simultaneously in a starting cycle?

Some say a first cycle of for example test e / test e + deca should be no less then 10-12 weeks, other claim that 8 weeks is more than enough

just run enth, because when you see how you react to enth, that will be your control (if you're familiar with any scientific procedure). once you have a control, you determine causes of side-effects from stacks by process of elimination

reasons to not do deca with your test for #1 cycle- you have can probably gain a bunch naturally with just diet.
since you're under your natural genetic potential, with deca+enth, you may gain so much weight so quickly, you'll get permanent stretch marks

since we aren't talking about stacks anymore for cycle #1... lets just deal with enth, or any other test that you may start with. 8 weeks is fine, and will change the severity of pct period (i think, don't quote me on that part). but since most people don't really see effects for 3-5 weeks of test, you'll only get about 3 weeks of gains on a short cycle. I think people usually kickstart short cycles with quick acting orals. but you're not stacking for cycle #1 so forget that.

longer cycle= more gains, longer/higher dose pct (i think).

for first cycle= get diet in check (what do your macros look like? how many kcal/day)
second cycle= 10-12 enth, 250mg/2xWeek is good

[joe doe]

thanks for the info, kleaver, appreciate it

As for the macros and cals, i posted one of my diets above, the text formatting did get a bit messed up though, so it might be hard to read.
To sum it up the bottom line looks somewhat like this

Protein: 348.7g
Carbs: 505.05g
Fat: 76.55g
Kcal: 4223

So what youre saying is that running enth and deca is overkill for the first cycle.. i had considered that myself.. im leaning towards holding off on the deca for now then. Ill also do some more research on increasing PCT intensity with regards to cycle duration, though i can not remember coming across any info suggesting that it is nescessary.

One more thing.. I've had some people suggesting adding winstrol towards the end of a testosterone cycle (a dosage of around 50mg a day/ 100mg eod for the last 3 weeks of the cycle) This to help reduce excess water and fat retention caused by the estrogen. Anyone got any experience with this? or is this also better saved for a later cyle?