Long Term Low Dose Use

**busterbrown** · 01-31-2011, 08:36 PM

Question - I have been doing AAS in small doses for over 2 years
1/2 cc test enanthate
1/2 cc deca

I would like to come off with as little issues as possible if possible

I have HCG (10,000) and a bottle of Liquid Clomi(70ml 35mg/ml). Can someone give me some direction of how they would start this process. If you would stay on aas a couple of more weeks and start HCG now and continue for a few weeks when off then start the Clomi?? How much would you take of the HCG being on aas so long and the clomid as well??

Anyhelp would be appreciated. If you need more info, just ask I would like to start process today - very nervous about what is to come

**scotty51312** · 01-31-2011, 08:56 PM

how many MG per cc of each? How old are you?

**38jumper38** · 01-31-2011, 09:10 PM

2 years????? are you sure its that long?????????????????

**Vullfromsc** · 01-31-2011, 09:17 PM

first off, stop the deca right away. what dose of test were you taking? (mg) it is possible to come off alright, but you will probably need more pct meds than you say you have

**busterbrown** · 01-31-2011, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by scotty51312

how many MG per cc of each? How old are you?

200mg/cc on bet the deca and test. I am 39 years old.

**busterbrown** · 01-31-2011, 09:31 PM

Vullfromsc

what would you suggest on the pct? Please elaborate? thanks for anyhelp

**Vullfromsc** · 01-31-2011, 09:49 PM

here is what i think you should do..
stop the deca , continue running test e for 4 weeks

start the HCG at 1000iu EOD (after you stop the deca) until your balls look normal or bigger, then back the dose down to 500iu E3D or so.

when you have your last shot of test e, stop the hcg about 8 days later. start an aggressive pct (like something below) around 12-14 days after the last shot of test e

week 1-6 nolva 40/20/20/20/20/20mg ED
week 1-6 torem/(clomid) 60mg ED (50mg ED)
week 1-4 aromasin 20mg ED

or even longer.. someone else can chirp in on this, but i think this would be something that would work well

**scotty51312** · 01-31-2011, 11:55 PM

^^^ The first part of this PCT plan looks good. however you do not want to run an AI on PCT because when you stop running it you will suffer and estrogen rebound. Also start out your clomid at 100mg ed for the first week. then 50 for the next 4 weeks then 25. The HCG should absolutley be ran before you stop the test. and up till you start your PCT (14 days after your last shot of test) After your PCT wait about 4 weeks and go get some bloodwork done to make sure you've recovered and haven't damaged yourself permanantly

**busterbrown** · 02-01-2011, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Vullfromsc

here is what i think you should do..
stop the deca , continue running test e for 4 weeks

start the HCG at 1000iu EOD (after you stop the deca) until your balls look normal or bigger, then back the dose down to 500iu E3D or so.

when you have your last shot of test e, stop the hcg about 8 days later. start an aggressive pct (like something below) around 12-14 days after the last shot of test e

week 1-6 nolva 40/20/20/20/20/20mg ED
week 1-6 torem/(clomid) 60mg ED (50mg ED)
week 1-4 aromasin 20mg ED

or even longer.. someone else can chirp in on this, but i think this would be something that would work well

So my last injection of both deca and test was last thursday. Can i start the hcg today? just keep on schedule with test this thursday or would you wait another week? 1000 iu EOD is that too high of a dose? could that possible start desensitizing my leydig cells?

Thanks again for your help

**busterbrown** · 02-01-2011, 02:23 PM

Also, the pct - Can i purchase the real stuff online? I already bought the online liquid clomid. But did not look into the Nolva or aromasin yet. I know i screwd up doing aas too long and want to give myself the best possible chance of kicking my stuff in.

Honestly thanks so much for info, it has been very helpful. There is so much info online that it is hard to get through it all

**Far from massive** · 02-01-2011, 02:38 PM

AR-R 's stuff on the banner is all good. You can depend on the quality of any of there chems.

When you say if you stop both the test and deca today, you are missing an important point. If you stop the deca at the same time you stop the test the test will clear the body quicker than the Deca. Since the Deca completely suppresses the bodies own production of test this will leave you in a state of basically zero Test which will not be fun. By stopping the Deca and running the test for another few weeks to a month you will ensure that the Deca has had a chance to clear before stopping the test this will give your PCT drugs a lot easier job to do.

**busterbrown** · 02-01-2011, 02:56 PM

Thanks Far from massive - Maybe my post was miscommunicated, I am planning on staying on the test for another 4 weeks, will stop the deca though. In your opinion would you start out at the 1000 iu EOD. Also, is it possible that my own test never completely shut down with small doses that I have been taken. My boys never really shrank? Also, if I do a correct PCT, what should I expect after stopping of test

**dec11** · 02-01-2011, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by Far from massive

AR-R 's stuff on the banner is all good. You can depend on the quality of any of there chems.

When you say if you stop both the test and deca today, you are missing an important point. If you stop the deca at the same time you stop the test the test will clear the body quicker than the Deca. Since the Deca completely suppresses the bodies own production of test this will leave you in a state of basically zero Test which will not be fun. By stopping the Deca and running the test for another few weeks to a month you will ensure that the Deca has had a chance to clear before stopping the test this will give your PCT drugs a lot easier job to do.

if he's been on for 2yrs i dont see it making much diff. he needs a friggin miracle. OP, id talk to swifto if i was you

**dosXX** · 02-01-2011, 03:26 PM

you should also consider getting some blood work done.

**dec11** · 02-01-2011, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by dosXX

you should also consider getting some blood work done.

yep, good start. but with nothing in your system. best to run an aggressive pct and if still in diffs a month l8a go for bloods

**busterbrown** · 02-01-2011, 04:42 PM

Yeah - I just had a physical and some general lab work done - thyroid, hcl, ldl, etc.. and everything came back normal. But i do need to do aggressive PCT and get lab work with test levels checked after. Any other suggestions

**busterbrown** · 02-02-2011, 11:48 AM

Quick question - If your balls start to return size during end of your cycle when you start using HCG , is that evidence that your body will recover(start producing my own test) ? or is that just due do to the HCG causing test production? I know the HCG is helping kick in own production of test but once you remove hcg during pct., could balls shrink back ? Or to really see if sytem will kick back in, i will need to wait until 4 weeks after pct?

**themoreyouknow** · 02-02-2011, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by scotty51312

^^^ The first part of this PCT plan looks good. however you do not want to run an AI on PCT because when you stop running it you will suffer and estrogen rebound. Also start out your clomid at 100mg ed for the first week. then 50 for the next 4 weeks then 25. The HCG should absolutley be ran before you stop the test. and up till you start your PCT (14 days after your last shot of test) After your PCT wait about 4 weeks and go get some bloodwork done to make sure you've recovered and haven't damaged yourself permanantly

aromasin does NOT cause estrogen rebound like letro would.

**Honkey_Kong** · 02-02-2011, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by busterbrown

Quick question - If your balls start to return size during end of your cycle when you start using HCG, is that evidence that your body will recover(start producing my own test) ? or is that just due do to the HCG causing test production? I know the HCG is helping kick in own production of test but once you remove hcg during pct., could balls shrink back ? Or to really see if sytem will kick back in, i will need to wait until 4 weeks after pct?

Buster, don't rely on the size of your balls as an indication you're recovered. The only way to know is comprehensive blood work. And since you've been on the juice for 2 years, I think you might be shut down permanently. What were your total and free test levels from the bloodwork?

**busterbrown** · 02-02-2011, 04:56 PM

I dont think there is a need to do blood work concerning test levels right now since i will still be on for next few weeks. Is this incorrect? I am definetly going to get bloodwork when I am done with PCT. I am not relying on the size of my nuts to tell me where I am at concerning test level. But thought if they start to regain size and get bigger, that might be an indicator of natural test being produced?

**busterbrown** · 03-22-2011, 07:31 PM

I have been on my PCT for three weeks and feel like shit. Feel depressed, no sex drive, can barely raise a smile in morning. Took for ever to have an orgasm the other night only with a BJ.

Couple of Questions
- How long can it take or if even possible to recover?
- Would a small amount of Androgel effect recovery? Would a small amount even do anything(help with mood,libido) and would that keep u shutdown? just went to doc yesterday and should get results back tomorrow. Doc already said he would want to put me on this if test was low.

Any advice would be appreciated? If I am shutdown for good than that is what it is, i just don't want to short myself again by being impatient. I still am intrested in having one more kid, how could Androgel effect this? my doc said it would not cause problems with shutting your own production down? I thought that it would

**AlphaMaleDawg** · 03-22-2011, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by busterbrown

I have been on my PCT for three weeks and feel like shit. Feel depressed, no sex drive, can barely raise a smile in morning. Took for ever to have an orgasm the other night only with a BJ.

Couple of Questions
- How long can it take or if even possible to recover?
- Would a small amount of Androgel effect recovery? Would a small amount even do anything(help with mood,libido) and would that keep u shutdown? just went to doc yesterday and should get results back tomorrow. Doc already said he would want to put me on this if test was low.

Any advice would be appreciated? If I am shutdown for good than that is what it is, i just don't want to short myself again by being impatient. I still am intrested in having one more kid, how could Androgel effect this? my doc said it would not cause problems with shutting your own production down? I thought that it would

How do you know you can't get your wife pregnant? Most people can still conceive on AAS. And how badly are you trying to avoid HRT?

**Honkey_Kong** · 03-22-2011, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by busterbrown

I have been on my PCT for three weeks and feel like shit. Feel depressed, no sex drive, can barely raise a smile in morning. Took for ever to have an orgasm the other night only with a BJ.

Couple of Questions
- How long can it take or if even possible to recover?
- Would a small amount of Androgel effect recovery? Would a small amount even do anything(help with mood,libido) and would that keep u shutdown? just went to doc yesterday and should get results back tomorrow. Doc already said he would want to put me on this if test was low.

Any advice would be appreciated? If I am shutdown for good than that is what it is, i just don't want to short myself again by being impatient. I still am intrested in having one more kid, how could Androgel effect this? my doc said it would not cause problems with shutting your own production down? I thought that it would

Basically, if he puts you on androgel, it will continue to keep you shut down. But at that point he's not trying to bring back your natural levels, he's putting you on TRT. Personally, I don't like the androgel (especially with the handling cautions). But don't argue with the man. And you should probably participate in the Hormone Replacement Therapy thread on this site.

**AlphaMaleDawg** · 03-22-2011, 07:40 PM

^yea I say if you don't mind, just accept HRT. Otherwise you could be feeling horrible like you do now for a very very long time. You will likely still get your wife pregnant. If you do mind HRT though, then I don't know enough to advise on this situation

**Chuck_R** · 03-22-2011, 08:05 PM

You may have to rely on TRT rest of your life. My test levels dropped several years ago(before i had ever ran a cycle of aas), 1st sign was gyno, sore nips and a lump under the nips, i was depressed and had no sex drive. My Dr started me on androgel in "07 and we worked our way up the recommended dosages until end of last year, now he has me on 200mg of test cyp a week. Once the androgel dosage was high enough the depression-gone, sex drive-great, testicles still little shrunk but work just fine. I def prefer weekly shots over the gel. At 41 TRT has been a blessing. We check my blood levels every 3 months and adjust where we need. It's good that you're getting this mess straightened out. Listen to these guys on the forum and talk to your Dr about long term reality..best wishes...AND keep us posted on how you're doing.

**busterbrown** · 03-22-2011, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by AlphaMaleDawg

^yea I say if you don't mind, just accept HRT. Otherwise you could be feeling horrible like you do now for a very very long time. You will likely still get your wife pregnant. If you do mind HRT though, then I don't know enough to advise on this situation

I want to do HRT asap. Shoot I just want to feel better. I just was not sure if I had a chance to bounce back and most importantly cause infertility problems if not already there. Concerning my wife getting pregnant, being on aas - sex for over the last year has been incredible and but no pregnancy and no protection ever. So that is why I was asking if being shutdown by aas or hrt would be comparable. Maybe, I am mis-informed but i thought basically when you shut yourself down you are basically infertile while on aas

How long has it taken some of you who were placed on HRT to start feeling better(libido, mood, etcc.)

I really appreciate the feedback

**Honkey_Kong** · 03-22-2011, 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by busterbrown

I want to do HRT asap. Shoot I just want to feel better. I just was not sure if I had a chance to bounce back and most importantly cause infertility problems if not already there. Concerning my wife getting pregnant, being on aas - sex for over the last year has been incredible and but no pregnancy and no protection ever. So that is why I was asking if being shutdown by aas or hrt would be comparable. Maybe, I am mis-informed but i thought basically when you shut yourself down you are basically infertile while on aas

How long has it taken some of you who were placed on HRT to start feeling better(libido, mood, etcc.)

I really appreciate the feedback

It depends on the specific treatment. The androgel is rather quick from what I hear. I get a weekly injection of test C. after a few weeks, I put on about 5 pounds when I went on it, but the depression and libido problems were gone after the second injection. They're not going to give you enough gear to get yoked. They're going to give you enough to help your problems.

**j4ever41** · 03-23-2011, 12:57 AM

Originally Posted by busterbrown

I have been on my PCT for three weeks and feel like shit. Feel depressed, no sex drive, can barely raise a smile in morning. Took for ever to have an orgasm the other night only with a BJ.

Couple of Questions
- How long can it take or if even possible to recover?
- Would a small amount of Androgel effect recovery? Would a small amount even do anything(help with mood,libido) and would that keep u shutdown? just went to doc yesterday and should get results back tomorrow. Doc already said he would want to put me on this if test was low.

Any advice would be appreciated? If I am shutdown for good than that is what it is, i just don't want to short myself again by being impatient. I still am intrested in having one more kid, how could Androgel effect this? my doc said it would not cause problems with shutting your own production down? I thought that it would

How did you run/dose your HCG ? What are the doseages of nolva/clomid? By the way 3 weeks into PCT is nothing.

**5x10** · 03-23-2011, 07:27 AM

check in the pct section, swiftos q/a thread, 1st page, he references a doctors protocol to get longterm users like yourself back to baseline levels
no androgel , it will make it worse

**AlphaMaleDawg** · 03-23-2011, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by busterbrown

I want to do HRT asap. Shoot I just want to feel better. I just was not sure if I had a chance to bounce back and most importantly cause infertility problems if not already there. Concerning my wife getting pregnant, being on aas - sex for over the last year has been incredible and but no pregnancy and no protection ever. So that is why I was asking if being shutdown by aas or hrt would be comparable. Maybe, I am mis-informed but i thought basically when you shut yourself down you are basically infertile while on aas

How long has it taken some of you who were placed on HRT to start feeling better(libido, mood, etcc.)

I really appreciate the feedback

I am no expert on this topic, but I keep hearing about people using clomid and hcg to get their wives pregnant when they are on hrt and it works

**Swifto** · 03-23-2011, 10:28 AM

wk 1-3 HCG 1000ius/EOD
wk 1-3 Tamox 10mg/ED
wk 1-4 Aromasin 10mg/ED
wk 4-9 Tamox 20mg/ED
wk 4-9 Tore 60mg/ED (120mg/ED week 1 and 2)
*Ashwagandha RE
*TestForce

I'd even do a single shot of Triptorelin 50mcg (DO NOT F*CK THE DOSE UP) on the first day of week 4.

Good luck.

**JohnnyVegas** · 03-23-2011, 10:35 AM

You were taking 100mg/week of test and 100mg/week of Deca ? While I am sure it is bad to run Deca for that long, you basically were already on unmanaged TRT (HRT). A doctor will probably put you on 100mg - 200mg per week of Test E or Cyp. Try to avoid the gel.

My understanding is that AAS can cause infertility, but many guys here laugh when they hear someone say that because they got their wives pregnant while on cycle.

**FuzzyPeaches o.O** · 03-23-2011, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by JohnnyVegas

You were taking 100mg/week of test and 100mg/week of Deca ? While I am sure it is bad to run Deca for that long, you basically were already on unmanaged TRT (HRT). A doctor will probably put you on 100mg - 200mg per week of Test E or Cyp. Try to avoid the gel.

My understanding is that AAS can cause infertility, but many guys here laugh when they hear someone say that because they got their wives pregnant while on cycle.

Getting someone preg while on cycle and staying fertile while on HRT/TRT are 2 totally different scenarios. The issue of becoming sterile is a much greater concern to a subject who is on a long-term plan as opposed to your average AAS user who runs typical length cycles with adequate time off between cycles.

**Swifto** · 03-23-2011, 12:50 PM

Testicular size is directly correlated with spermatogenisis.

**busterbrown** · 03-23-2011, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Swifto

wk 1-3 HCG 1000ius/EOD
wk 1-3 Tamox 10mg/ED
wk 1-4 Aromasin 10mg/ED
wk 4-9 Tamox 20mg/ED
wk 4-9 Tore 60mg/ED (120mg/ED week 1 and 2)
*Ashwagandha RE
*TestForce

I'd even do a single shot of Triptorelin 50mcg (DO NOT F*CK THE DOSE UP) on the first day of week 4.

Good luck.

Swifto,
i started HCG at 1000iu EOD during last 2 weeks of test and the size of my balls came back to normal, i then back HCG down to 500mcg E3D for another 2 1/2 weeks about 8 days after last shot of T

Now i have been doing this PCT below - started 14 days after last shot of test but only on for 3 weeks so far

week 1-6 nolva 40/20/20/20/20/20mg ED
week 1-6 torem/(clomid) 60mg ED (50mg ED)

Question? Would u suggest that I start using HCG(1000 EOD) while continuing the Nolva and torem. I read the article that you put on PCT section which was great to hear people recovering after prolonged use.

Question ? you said testicular size is correlated with spermatogenisis. From a theoretical view if the size of my balls came back to normal size would suggest sperm count would be ok or similiar to where it was at before? I know I want know until test are done.

Question - Would you stay away from a low dose of hrt right now. Just dont want to feel like crap if i could get some Test running until/if my own comes back

Thanks again for any help

**Swifto** · 03-23-2011, 02:00 PM

You do not need Tore and Clomid, pick one. I'd opt for Tore.

Tore 120/120/60/60/60/60
Tamox 20/20/20/20/20/20

Yes, I'd assume your sperm count is near baseline, but it will take some time to recover.

If you want to recoverm stay away from ALL androgens at ANY dose.