Testicular Volume and Spermatogenesis/Function - Swifto

[Swifto]

I recently got asked a question at another board about testicular volume being an indication of function on cycle or off cycle.

Here's what I found...

This is a tricky question and the answer is yes and no.

When we are on cycle, for example, Test 500mg/wk and Deca 400mg/wk and do NOT experience testicular atrophy (reduction of size), that doesnt mean we are not "shut down". Our HPTA is still hypogondal and not producing normal or baseline levels of GnRH/LH/FSH and Testosterone.

Testicular atrophy is not a sign of the HPTA working in regards to endogenous testosterone. We know that exogenous testosterone or other anabolics inhibit the HPTA, some more so than others and the phenomenon of our testes shrinking (atrophy) does happen to all of us.

I have never experienced pea or raisin sized bollocks. Honestly, I havent and I also havent used HCG all the time.

So if someone were to ask if testicular volume is an indication of function, reading the above you'de assume, no, it doesnt. Right?

But thats not the whole picture...

Testicular volume is an indication of testes function in regards to spermatogenesis, but not endogenous testosterone production. The H-P-T-Axis is split into various stages/levels and we have to remember that.

Testicular volume IS an indication of sperm production/density.

So what does that mean on cycle when we get testicular atrophy, when we have no access to HCG, dont use it because we dont want to, or any other reason we're not using it?

It means IF you get testicular atrophy on cycle, your sure as f*ck increasing the risks of becoming infertile, or vastly reducing your sperm density/numbers.

Its just another reason to use a low dose of HCG throughout your cycle. If your young (or old) and wanting kids one
day, use HCG.

Do NOT risk infertility by NOT using HCG on cycle and if you do suffer from testicular atrophy, now you know your effecting your sperm count/density, even more so than using AAS in the first place. Some of us are more susceptible than others in regards to fertility.

Below are some studies on testicular size and how size is correlated with function.






Asian Journal of Andrology (2008) 10, 319–324; doi:10.1111/j.1745-7262.2008.00340.x

Relationship between testicular volume and testicular function: comparison of the Prader orchidometric and ultrasonographic measurements in patients with infertility

Hideo Sakamoto, Yoshio Ogawa and Hideki Yoshida

Department of Urology, Showa University School of Medicine, Tokyo 142-8666, Japan

Correspondence: Dr Hideo Sakamoto, Department of Urology, Showa University School of Medicine, 1-5-8 Hatanodai, Shinagawaku, Tokyo 142-8666, Japan. Fax: +81-3-3784-1400. E-mail: [email protected]

Received 19 March 2007; Accepted 11 September 2007.

Top of page
Abstract
Aim: To evaluate the relationship between testicular function and testicular volume measured by using Prader orchidometry and ultrasonography (US) to determine the critical testicular volume indicating normal testicular function by each method.
Methods: Total testicular volume (right plus left testicular volume) was measured in 794 testes in 397 men with infertility (mean age, 35.6 years) using a Prader orchidometer and also by ultrasonography. Ultrasonographic testicular volumes were calculated as length × width × height × 0.71. To evaluate volume-function relationships, patients were divided into 10 groups representing 5-mL increments of total testicular volume by each method from below 10 mL to 50 mL or more.
Results: Mean total testicular volume based on Prader orchidometry and US were 36.8 mL and 26.3 mL, respectively. Semen volume, sperm density, total sperm count, total motile sperm count, and serum FSH, LH, and testosterone all correlated significantly with total testicular volume measured by either method. Mean sperm density was in the oligozoospermic range in patients with total testicular volume below 35 mL by orchidometry or below 20 mL by ultrasonography. Mean total sperm count was subnormal in patients with total testicular volume below 30 mL by orchidometry or under 20 mL by ultrasonography.
Conclusion: Testicular volume measured by either ultrasonography or Prader orchidometry correlated significantly with testicular function. However, critical total testicular volume indicating normal or nearly normal testicular function was 30 mL to 35 mL using Prader orchidometer and 20 mL using ultrasonography. Prader orchidometry morphometrically and functionally overestimated the testicular volume in comparison to US.


Int J Fertil Womens Med. 1998 Jan-Feb;43(1):40-7.

Relationship of testicular volume to semen profiles and serum hormone concentrations in infertile Japanese males.

Arai T, Kitahara S, Horiuchi S, Sumi S, Yoshida K.

Department of Urology, Dokkyo University School of Medicine, Tochigi, Japan.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE: We studied the relationship between testicular volume and semen quality and also between testicular volume and seminiferous tubular or Leydig cell function in infertile Japanese males.

METHODS: The testicular volumes of 486 infertile Japanese males were measured by an orchidometer. Semen samples were analyzed according to the guidelines of the World Health Organization. Serum concentrations of follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), luteinizing hormone (LH), and testosterone were measured by radioimmunoassay. The subjects were divided into 10 groups according to testicular volume, and the variables from each group were analyzed and compared.

RESULTS: Testicular volume had the strongest positive correlation with sperm density, followed in decreasing order by total sperm count per ejaculate, total motile sperm count per ejaculate, and percentage of motile sperm. Testicular volume had the strongest negative correlation with serum FSH concentrations, followed by serum LH concentrations. In contrast, no significant correlations were found between testicular volume and semen volume or serum testosterone concentrations. Multiple regression analysis of dependence of testicular volume on semen profiles and serum hormone concentrations revealed that the only significant factor was serum FSH concentration. Sperm density was under the limit of normal in patients with a testicular volume of less than 30 mL. In these patients, serum FSH concentrations were abnormally increased. Patients with a testicular volume of less than 10 mL were azoospermic, while volumes of less than 20 mL were associated with severe oligozoospermia.

CONCLUSIONS: Testicular volume has a direct correlation with semen profiles, and the critical testicular volume indicating normal testicular function is approximately 30 mL. The measurement of testicular volume can be helpful for rapidly assessing fertility at the initial physical examination.

PMID: 9532468 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]




J Urol. 1987 Mar;137(3):416-9.

Significance of testicular size measurement in andrology: II. Correlation of testicular size with testicular function.

Takihara H, Cosentino MJ, Sakatoku J, Cockett AT.

Abstract
The testicular sizes of 305 men were measured by a recently developed orchidometer and related to 9 other known parameters of testicular function. Mean testicular size had the strongest correlation with serum follicle-stimulating hormone levels, total sperm count and sperm concentration, while a significant correlation also was noted with sperm motility, percentage of live sperm, sperm morphology (normal and immature forms), and serum luteinizing hormone and testosterone levels. Sperm quantity had stronger correlations with testicular size than did sperm quality, although both were impaired in testes smaller than 14 ml. It is concluded that the size of the testis bears a direct correlation with testicular function and, thus, it can be helpful to assess rapidly andrological status during the initial physical examination.

PMID: 3102757 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Hazard]

I didn't have time to read it all yet but I learned something from the bit I did get to read. Great post swifto

~Haz~

[Swifto]

I have never heard or seen this discussed anywhere before.

[PK-V]

so basically if your 10 weeks in on cycle which should shut you down and not using any hcg but your balls are till the same size

it may mean you may still have spermatogenesis taking place

and then the take away notes are that the size of your nuts are not an indication in any way of the level of HPTA shutdown

as spermatogenesis takes place on a different level so to say

[layeazy]

yeah great read decent summary by PK-V all i can add is it will be a must HCG on my next cycle i atropy easily and are keen to keep sperm production going whilst cycling.

[Swifto]

so basically if your 10 weeks in on cycle which should shut you down and not using any hcg but your balls are till the same size

it may mean you may still have spermatogenesis taking place

and then the take away notes are that the size of your nuts are not an indication in any way of the level of HPTA shutdown

as spermatogenesis takes place on a different level so to say

Yes.

Sperm production will be inhibited using androgens, but some more so than others. Its a very individual thing this one.

But the fact is, if you suffer from atrophy, your more at risk of infertility IMHO.

Using HCG on cycle is not just for cosmetic reasons on cycle. Its to maintain function.

yeah great read decent summary by PK-V all i can add is it will be a must HCG on my next cycle i atropy easily and are keen to keep sperm production going whilst cycling.

Use HCG next cycle and your recovery should also be better/easier.

[cro]

sweet post

[PK-V]

yeah great read decent summary by PK-V all i can add is it will be a must HCG on my next cycle i atropy easily and are keen to keep sperm production going whilst cycling.

it was more of a question really, to make sure my understanding of that I had just read was correct *shhhhhhh* lol

Yes.

Sperm production will be inhibited using androgens, but some more so than others. Its a very individual thing this one.

But the fact is, if you suffer from atrophy, your more at risk of infertility IMHO.

Using HCG on cycle is not just for cosmetic reasons on cycle. Its to maintain function.

Awesome thanks swifto

love reading this sort of stuff

[*Admin*]

Very Interesting.... helpful indeed...

[big_ron]

Very interesting. A good piece of information of us guys. thanks swifto

[Swifto]

Very Interesting.... helpful indeed...

Oh really! Haha!

[SMcB]

So does infertility/lower sperm count only apply when you're on cycle? Let's say a person cycles on cyp or enanthate for no more than 10 weeks and this is the only cycle he is planning to run. If he experiences atrophy while on cycle does that mean he may become infertile or have a low sperm count for the rest of his life?

[Matt]

Great thread mate, as always.....

[Swifto]

So does infertility/lower sperm count only apply when you're on cycle? Let's say a person cycles on cyp or enanthate for no more than 10 weeks and this is the only cycle he is planning to run. If he experiences atrophy while on cycle does that mean he may become infertile or have a low sperm count for the rest of his life?

User's have got their wife's/girlfriend pregnant many times on and off cycle.

Sperm count/density seems to return post AAS use, just like serum T does and all other sex hormones. But will decline with age.

[songdog]

Good thread Swifto.I never suffer athropy.Guess I am luck.But at 52 I dont plan on havin kids.

[SMcB]

Have you always ran HCG during cycles? If not, then your body defies science or something. It just doesn't seem possible to maintain ball size when taking in exogenous test for weeks at a time....

[Swifto]

Have you always ran HCG during cycles? If not, then your body defies science or something. It just doesn't seem possible to maintain ball size when taking in exogenous test for weeks at a time....

Never had atrophy, but I havent used Tren or Deca...Yet.

I've been on exo. Test for around 20 weeks too and not had atrophy, no HCG.

I guess I'm one of the lucky ones.

[layeazy]

Just curious swifto what about Test E which is know to reduce your sperm count?

Would the HCG preventing the atrophy would that stop that happening as test E is a very favorable test..

Then went as far to say that it could almost be used as a contraceptive in 3rd world countries..

[Swifto]

Just curious swifto what about Test E which is know to reduce your sperm count?

Would the HCG preventing the atrophy would that stop that happening as test E is a very favorable test..

Then went as far to say that it could almost be used as a contraceptive in 3rd world countries..

I'd postulate it would reduce Test Enan's effects on sperm count/density. You'de be far better using HCG on cycle to maintain size and function of the testes, then not using it at all, ever.

Test Enan will only reduce sperm count because of its effects on LH, FSH and possible estrogen's direct effect on the testes.

[CMB]

Wow swifto, excellent post.

That's very interesting, I had no clue. Lucky for me too I have yet to suffer pea sized nuts.

[CMB]

Wow swifto, excellent post.

That's very interesting, I had no clue. Lucky for me too I have yet to suffer pea sized nuts.

[Tigershark]

Nice post.

[BJJ]

Interesting

[Swifto]

Bump

[layeazy]

yeah that would make sense with the test E its ability to aromitize..

Thanks for clearing that up im a fan of cyp ATM so will just use that..

What are you thoughts on Nolva swifto what i have Google and read in studies its very detrimental on your sperm count hence why my pct is Torem and Clomid..

[ss135]

should you use Hcg 500iu/week starting in "week4-pct start" or till the last injection?

[Userat204]

SWIFTO can you shed any light on the GnRH agonist that are being sold and claiming that a single dose can reverse hypogonadism. Do you personally see a use for them or have an opinion on their use?

[baseline_9]

To the top.....

Another thread that should be a stickie by Swifto.....

I can think of many more Swifto threads that should be stuck up the top...

People need to start reading and listening to this info...

[Swifto]

SWIFTO can you shed any light on the GnRH agonist that are being sold and claiming that a single dose can reverse hypogonadism. Do you personally see a use for them or have an opinion on their use?

I think I may try Triptorelin next PCT, as I now have a source for it.

50-100mcgs ONCE is also thats needed.

The study you and others refer too is on a single subject, not multiple cases and does not follow the subjects progress over 3-4months if I remember correctly.

Get the dose wrong and your going to f*ck yourself up for a long time, thats a fact.

To the top.....

Another thread that should be a stickie by Swifto.....

I can think of many more Swifto threads that should be stuck up the top...

People need to start reading and listening to this info...

Thanks Base.

[Fit N Fun]

Swifto,

Seems to me there is a slight flaw in the conclusion being drawn.

I had a vasectomy 6 months ago, this involves cutting then tying the sperm tubes off at the top of the testicles.

The surgeon said to me that after a while sperm production will cease because there is no where for the sperm to go.

I am on cycle just now and suffer from Atrophy, am trying Naltrexone rather than HCG to see what the effect will be on PCT.

Stopped taking the Naltrexone for a few days last week and sure enough my nuts shrunk well down, got them more or less back to full size after three days back on Naltrexone.

How do you explain changing testicular size in a vasectomised male?

Great read though!

[Bullseye Forever]

good post Swifto

[PK-V]

Swifto,

Seems to me there is a slight flaw in the conclusion being drawn.

I had a vasectomy 6 months ago, this involves cutting then tying the sperm tubes off at the top of the testicles.

The surgeon said to me that after a while sperm production will cease because there is no where for the sperm to go.

I am on cycle just now and suffer from Atrophy, am trying Naltrexone rather than HCG to see what the effect will be on PCT.

Stopped taking the Naltrexone for a few days last week and sure enough my nuts shrunk well down, got them more or less back to full size after three days back on Naltrexone.

How do you explain changing testicular size in a vasectomised male?

Great read though!

My understanding is that having your vasa deferentia severed only prevents you from expelling sperm but does not effect your ability to get shutdown due to exogenous testosterone. The negative feedback loop is still in effect.

"After vasectomy, the testes remain in the scrotum where Leydig cells continue to produce testosterone and other male hormones that continue to be secreted into the blood stream."

And the naltrexone allows pulses of GnRH to occur as if no steroid hormones are present thus preventing spermogenise shutdown. In doing so allowing you to maintain full size of your nutz.

[Fit N Fun]

My understanding is that having your vasa deferentia severed only prevents you from expelling sperm but does not effect your ability to get shutdown due to exogenous testosterone. The negative feedback loop is still in effect..

Agreed

"After vasectomy, the testes remain in the scrotum where Leydig cells continue to produce testosterone and other male hormones that continue to be secreted into the blood stream.".

Again agreed, as long as you are not on cycle

And the naltrexone allows pulses of GnRH to occur as if no steroid hormones are present thus preventing spermogenise shutdown. In doing so allowing you to maintain full size of your nutz.

According to my surgeon, after a vasectomy, Spermatogenesis ceases because there is no movement of sperm from the testes, this function is lost for as long as the vasa deferentia exit path is blocked.

I have found how to get Naltrexone to reliably inflate my testes, it remains to be seen whether this will translate into a minimal PCT.

However the conclusion in the article that " Testicular volume had the strongest positive correlation with sperm density"seems to me to lack credibility since in my system there is no longer any sperm production.

It appears to me that there may be other factors at play like the parts of your testes that produce Testosterone. We are all very aware of the positive effects of HCG in the production of Testosterone and also the effect that HCG has on the Volume of your testes.

Testosterone production seems to me to be a much more likely reason that your testes are inflated.

[Undercover]

It means IF you get testicular atrophy on cycle, your sure as f*ck increasing the risks of becoming infertile, or vastly reducing your sperm density/numbers.

Don't mean to be a smartass but from the studies you posted, you can't possibly jump to a conclusion like this one...I mean unless you still continue to have testicular atrophy post cycle. Maybe you know something I don't...would like to know!

Anyway great post!

[PK-V]

According to my surgeon, after a vasectomy, Spermatogenesis ceases because there is no movement of sperm from the testes, this function is lost for as long as the vasa deferentia exit path is blocked.

I have found how to get Naltrexone to reliably inflate my testes, it remains to be seen whether this will translate into a minimal PCT.

However the conclusion in the article that " Testicular volume had the strongest positive correlation with sperm density"seems to me to lack credibility since in my system there is no longer any sperm production.

It appears to me that there may be other factors at play like the parts of your testes that produce Testosterone. We are all very aware of the positive effects of HCG in the production of Testosterone and also the effect that HCG has on the Volume of your testes.

Testosterone production seems to me to be a much more likely reason that your testes are inflated.

Interesting indeed let us know how your transition into pct is.

[X83]

I just ordered six vials of 5000iu HCG after reading all this.

[Fit N Fun]

Interesting indeed let us know how your transition into pct is.

I have a thread on my investigation into whether Naltrexone will keep the HPTA functioning while on cycle removing the need for PCT.

See here http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?454151-Low-dose-Naltrexone-on-next-cycle&highlight=

[Swifto]

Swifto,

Seems to me there is a slight flaw in the conclusion being drawn.

I had a vasectomy 6 months ago, this involves cutting then tying the sperm tubes off at the top of the testicles.

The surgeon said to me that after a while sperm production will cease because there is no where for the sperm to go.

I am on cycle just now and suffer from Atrophy, am trying Naltrexone rather than HCG to see what the effect will be on PCT.

Stopped taking the Naltrexone for a few days last week and sure enough my nuts shrunk well down, got them more or less back to full size after three days back on Naltrexone.

How do you explain changing testicular size in a vasectomised male?

Great read though!

My understanding is that having your vasa deferentia severed only prevents you from expelling sperm but does not effect your ability to get shutdown due to exogenous testosterone. The negative feedback loop is still in effect.

"After vasectomy, the testes remain in the scrotum where Leydig cells continue to produce testosterone and other male hormones that continue to be secreted into the blood stream."

And the naltrexone allows pulses of GnRH to occur as if no steroid hormones are present thus preventing spermogenise shutdown. In doing so allowing you to maintain full size of your nutz.

I think its pretty obvious that this theory does not apply (size/spermatogenisis) if you've had a vasectomy.

Naltrexone may have kept or stimulated GnRH, thus LH/FSH stimulating the testes, which would explain the size of your testes when your using Nal.

[eyepoker]

Great read. Thanks again Swifto!

[5x10]

swifto, the more i read on hcg, the more it seems that HCG actually regrows ledyges cells, am i correct?

one study referenced a 90% reduction in ledgye cells over a 12-16 week cycle, so when you do start your serms, your maximum produceable test is only 10% of what it was pre cycle

so then higher dose hcg is warranted to regrow those cells over a 3 week period
and while using on cycle, 250iu works as its not letting the ledgye cells die