Tapering down letro. When/How?

[Damienm05]

Title says it all. Currently working with a client who developed gyno mid-cycle. Used the resources here to get him sorted out and started on a letro regiment, following C-Bino's thread. He's been at 2.5 mg ed for about a week. Come the end of next week, the lump should be gone as he's already noticing a significant reduction. The question is:

Do i have him reduce the dose to .5 mg ed and stay there until PCT or is that not enough to prevent rebound? Should I have him taper down to 0 letro and then start nolva at 20 mg ed until PCT? Stay at .5 mg letro + 20 mg nolva until PCT?

Also, he plans on starting winny come next week and I've advised him against it based on what letro already does to joints. This is just parroted info i've heard though, I don't know if it would be dangerous to run both simultaneouly for sure. Please help me get him sorted out, he's a good guy - just an idiot.

Thanks boys!

[Damienm05]

Bump

[morty]

Gyno reduction protocol

To first understand why you are doing what you are doing I am going to go over a few things and a few definitions:

SERM – Selective estrogen receptor modulator. These drugs work by binding to the estrogen receptors and flooding them in a sense, making it difficult (but not impossible by any means) for estrogen to bind to the receptors and thus prevent the onset of estrogen related side effects.
Most common forms: Tamoxifen (Nolvadex), Clomiphene (Clomid)
AI – Aromatise Inhibitor. These drugs work by inhibiting the aromatization of estrogen. This means that in effect AI’s prevent androgens from converting to estrogen, again, making it difficult (but not impossible) for estrogen to reach receptor sites.
Most common forms: Anastrozole (l-dex, a-dex), Exemestane (aromasin), Femera (letrozole). For our purpose of reversing gyno we are interested in Letro.

Letro and your sex drive:
Letrozole will suppress your sex drive. This is another reason why it is so important to act on preventing gyno as soon as possible. Since we all know that Test should be run in every cycle this will cancel out the effect of sex drive suppression.

Running letro to prevent gyno:
If you decide to run estrogen protection while on cycle (and I suggest you do unless you are aware that you do not require it), you can run either a SERM or an AI. Letro will be the most powerful AI you can use, it will inhibit 98+% of estrogen using a dose as low as .25mg and even lower. This is why I suggest you do not use a dose higher than .50mg while on cycle just trying to prevent estrogen related side effects.

You will want to start running the letro approximately 2 weeks before you begin your cycle to allow it to fully stabilize in your blood. I have often heard the argument that letro takes up to 60 days to stabilize, I don’t know if I buy into this for the reason that I have reversed gyno after using letro for only 1 week. Still to be safe I recommend starting it before your cycle as stated above.

If you do decide to run letro there is absolutely no need to run another AI or SERM. Do not make the mistake of thinking more is better. Think of it this way; if letro is preventing the conversion of androgens to estrogen than there is no estrogen, what would the purpose of a SERM be when there is no estrogen to bind to the receptors? Nolva will only take away from the effectiveness of letro.

This brings me to my next point. Do not listen to anyone who tells you to bump up your nolvadex to 60+mg ED if you get gyno. I have no idea where this idea started but I have seen it suggest far too many times recently. Nolvadex will do nothing to reverse your gyno…let me make that clear IT WILL DO NOTHING FOR GYNO. If you are running nolva as your anti-e and start to develop gyno than sure you can bump the dosage a small amount to try to prevent it from progressing further, but letrozole must begin ASAP.

It is very important that you begin taking letrozole immediately, the longer your wait the more risk you take in not being able to reverse it.

How do I know if I have gyno?
If you have developed gyno you will have a lump behind your nipple. It will be fairly hard, and it will be tender to touch.

Running letro to reverse gyno:
I am going to go over the three different scenarios which people could fit into. Remember regardless of what scenario you are in it is important that you begin taking the letro ASAP.

1. Already using an anti-e aside from letro.
2. Already using letro @ a dose of .25mg or .50mg ED.
3. Not running any estrogen protection.

1.
Day 1: .25mg Letro + anti-e*
Day 2: .50mg Letro
Day 3: 1.0mg Letro
Day 4: 1.5mg Letro
Day 5: 2.0mg Letro
Day 6: 2.5mg Letro **

2.
Day 1: .50mg Letro
Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
Day 5: 2.5mg Letro **

3.
Day 1: .50mg Letro
Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
Day 5: 2.5mg Letro **

*Regardless of the anti-e you are using it is important to still use it for the first day you begin letro as the letro will not have taken any effect and you by no means want your body to be without any protection when gyno is already prevalent.

** You will remain at this dose until gyno symptoms subside. Once you believe your gyno is gone it is important to stay at this dose for another 4-7 days to ensure all traces are gone. I recommend people with a bf% over 15 stay on for a week as it may be harder to judge completely whether the lump is completely gone. Once this period is over it will be important to taper letro down slowly rather than coming off it completely. Regardless of which manner you tapered up your dose you will all taper down in the same fashion.

Day 1: 2.0mg
Day 2: 1.5mg
Day 3: 1.0mg
Day 4: .50mg***
Day 5: .25mg
***You can remain at this dose or go down further to .25mg. It is really up to you at this point. They are both very common maintenance doses as an anti-e while on cycle. Personally I have stayed with .25mg and never had a problem.

Letro and the estrogen rebound:
With your estrogen being completely inhibited there is a definite estrogen rebound as your body tries to re-stabilize the testosterone:estrogen balance. We can prevent this rebound effect by supplementing further with another AI or SERM. So, I suggest that when you are coming to the end of your cycle you will more than likely be using Nolva in your PCT so just make sure that you begin taking nolva the last day you are going to take your letro and then continue on as you would with regular PCT.

This now leads us into the question of reversing gyno while not on cycle. There are a few things to remember here. You have already waited longer than you should have, and your sex drive will be shot. You can use tribulus or another natural test booster to help you in this scenario but I can’t guarantee the effectiveness. Just follow gyno reversal protocols 2 or 3. When coming off again you must taper and begin using nolvadex to prevent any rebound effect that may occur.

How much nolvadex should you use if you are not going into PCT and running this off cycle? I suggest starting at 20mg ED for a week and then lowering it to 10mg for another week and then coming off completely.

[Mike Singletary]

Nice post morty

[Damienm05]

I've already read this. Thanks anyway for the reply but this doesn't specify the dose of nolva once letro has been tapered down to 0 or whether or not one can simply just take a lower dose of letro until PCT instead.

[morty]

How much nolvadex should you use if you are not going into PCT and running this off cycle? I suggest starting at 20mg ED for a week and then lowering it to 10mg for another week and then coming off completely.

I've already read this. Thanks anyway for the reply but this doesn't specify the dose of nolva once letro has been tapered down to 0 or whether or not one can simply just take a lower dose of letro until PCT instead.

I don't think you read it because it does say the dose

[M302_Imola]

stay at 2.5mg ED letro 1 week after lump is gone and then start to taper the dosage down like this: 2.5, 2.0, 1.5, 1.0, .5 When does your buddy's PCT start? I would have him stay at .5 ED or EOD until the start of PCT in which the letro should be dropped and nolva and clomid should be introduced. These SERMS will help with estrogen rebound and he should be good to go. No need to run nolva with the letro on cycle btw.

[Damienm05]

I don't think you read it because it does say the dose

Only assuming you're running it off-cycle, not if you're going into Nolva/Clomi PCT anyway.

[Damienm05]

stay at 2.5mg ED letro 1 week after lump is gone and then start to taper the dosage down like this: 2.5, 2.0, 1.5, 1.0, .5 When does your buddy's PCT start? I would have him stay at .5 ED or EOD until the start of PCT in which the letro should be dropped and nolva and clomid should be introduced. These SERMS will help with estrogen rebound and he should be good to go. No need to run nolva with the letro on cycle btw.

he's on week 6. I'm not sure if he's going for 10 or 12 weeks on test but I'll find out when I see him this evening. I have plenty of lion letro on hand from my past cycles where I didn't need it that he can use. He only has nolva for PCT, so I was hoping the letro would get him through without a rebound. Just didn't know why Bino suggests coming off completely and starting Nolva instead of maintaining a low-dose as you're saying. Thanks M302 as always.

[Damienm05]

He's running 10 weeks. Plans on starting the winny week 8. Safe to do with letro going or too bad on joints?

[M302_Imola]

he's on week 6. I'm not sure if he's going for 10 or 12 weeks on test but I'll find out when I see him this evening. I have plenty of lion letro on hand from my past cycles where I didn't need it that he can use. He only has nolva for PCT, so I was hoping the letro would get him through without a rebound. Just didn't know why Bino suggests coming off completely and starting Nolva instead of maintaining a low-dose as you're saying. Thanks M302 as always.

Well the thing we want to avoid is estrogen rebound that is often associated with letro. That is why it is VERY important to taper your letro dosage down when discontinuing use. I see no problem with running a low dose of letro throughout cycle as long as nolva or clomid is used after the letro to control the rebound. I also think Bino's approach of using nolva on cycle after the letro has been used for gyno reversal is good too. If estrogen is kept low while using letro then the nolva will bind to the receptor leaving the estrogen unable to bind which in turn will keep gyno at bay...either approach should work in theory.

He's running 10 weeks. Plans on starting the winny week 8. Safe to do with letro going or too bad on joints?

Winny will dry you out as well as the letro. His joints might be ok but this will be a risk. Me personally I would take nolva instead of the letro when the winny is introduced. Fish oil, glucosamine, and cissus will help keep his joints in good condition during winny use.

[Damienm05]

Alright, thanks again man. We're meeting again on thursday and I'll get him sorted out with this. I think I'll order him some AR-R tamox and charge him a finder's fee, haha. Seems like a better course of action to run it at 20mg e/d after tapering down letro to 0, rather than running both the letro/winny simultaneously. Obviously, once PCT starts, it'll just go down as normal with the standard nolva/clomi doses as the body won't see fit to balance out high test with high e at that point. On the bright side, he's making huge gains and making me look like one hell of a trainer lol.

[M302_Imola]

Alright, thanks again man. We're meeting again on thursday and I'll get him sorted out with this. I think I'll order him some AR-R tamox and charge him a finder's fee, haha. Seems like a better course of action to run it at 20mg e/d after tapering down letro to 0, rather than running both the letro/winny simultaneously. Obviously, once PCT starts, it'll just go down as normal with the standard nolva/clomi doses as the body won't see fit to balance out high test with high e at that point. On the bright side, he's making huge gains and making me look like one hell of a trainer lol.

good deal bro!