BW 2 weeks into cycle

**Flier** · 03-30-2011, 07:16 AM

I´m now in my 4´th week into my cycle.
Gained about 10lbs (mostly in the first week)
No noticeable strength increase.
No increase in Libido, energy, etc. (Not that I care, just sounds like other guys experience some kind of euphoria)
No sides.
Stats: 42/6'4"/240lbs/12%
Cycle: 10 weeks Cyp 500mgs/week, first 30 days 20mg Dbol ED, HCG 250iu EOD, Aromasin 10mg EOD

Did BW 2 weeks into cycle, here are some of the values:

Prolactin: 156 (<700)
Estrogen-17 beta: 0.31 (<0.18)
Testosterone : 45 (8-35)
SHBG: 6 (8-60)
Free Test: 79.5 (2.3-9.9)
BW was taken at 11am, approx 19 hrs after last 10mg Dbol pill.

Question:
Estrogen is high although I use an AI.
Is this because Aromasin works differently then other AI´s?...ie making the estrogen unable to bind to the receptors, but still letting the estrogen float around?
If this is the case, a high estrogen value on the BW, actually is a little deceptive in regards to risk of estrogen sides.
And by Aromasin letting the Estrogen float around instead of killing it, I actually get the benefits of the estrogen (lipid prof), without the sides?
SHBG is very low, which ofcourse is the reason to why free test is high.
Is the reason for the low SHBG the Aromasin working?

7´th injection today. But looks like I only have about 2 injections left of my 10ml bottle.....hmm...I inject exactly 1ml per injection (I thought). Either I can´t read the syringe or I´m wasting about 1-2ml per bottle in the needles etc.
Thats why I wrote 500mgs/week, my actual plan was 420mgs/week (250mgs E4D)

**5x10** · 03-30-2011, 07:21 AM

from what i understand, aromasin attacks the enzyme responsible for aromatizing the free floating test into estrogen, once attacked, it permanently alters the enzyme making it worthless
aromasin could be part of the reason why free test is so high, as its not aromatizing into estrogen like normal
looks like your estrogen is within normal values(if im reading that right, less than 18, your a 17)

did you get your cholesterol checked?

**Flier** · 03-30-2011, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by 5x10

from what i understand, aromasin attacks the enzyme responsible for aromatizing the free floating test into estrogen, once attacked, it permanently alters the enzyme making it worthless
aromasin could be part of the reason why free test is so high, as its not aromatizing into estrogen like normal
looks like your estrogen is within normal values(if im reading that right, less than 18, your a 17)

did you get your cholesterol checked?

Oh no, I just copied the wording on my BW, and they call it Estrogen-17 beta. My Estro value is 0.31.(high)
I did not get my cholesterol, I think. There are other values here like Hb, Hematokrit, HbA1c, TSH, T4, T3, LH, FSH.
All of these are within the normal range, except for LH/FSH of course.

**5x10** · 03-30-2011, 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by First Timer 42

Oh no, I just copied the wording on my BW, and they call it Estrogen-17 beta. My Estro value is 0.31.(high)
I did not get my cholesterol, I think. There are other values here like Hb, Hematokrit, HbA1c, TSH, T4, T3, LH, FSH.
All of these are within the normal range, except for LH/FSH of course.

ah, all i can think it to bump the aromaisn up a little to help reduce the estro(if you want)
my armosain comes in 25mg tabs, i cut in half, maybe try the full 25mgs?
im gonna get my blood work done soon, mainly for the cholesterol/lipids
how harmful do you think 10-12 weeks of elevated cholesterol is?
and i also wonder what we look like(via our blood panel) to a doc that always looks at blood work
meaning, if we gave him our lipid panel while on cycle,without seeing us in person would he say this is from a older, sedetary, overweight person

sorry to hijack, good to see bloodwork being done

**Flier** · 03-30-2011, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by 5x10

ah, all i can think it to bump the aromaisn up a little to help reduce the estro(if you want)
my armosain comes in 25mg tabs, i cut in half, maybe try the full 25mgs?
im gonna get my blood work done soon, mainly for the cholesterol/lipids
how harmful do you think 10-12 weeks of elevated cholesterol is?
and i also wonder what we look like(via our blood panel) to a doc that always looks at blood work
meaning, if we gave him our lipid panel while on cycle,without seeing us in person would he say this is from a older, sedetary, overweight person

sorry to hijack, good to see bloodwork being done

U said it in your first post. The Aromasin attacks the enzyme, making it worthless, however leaving it still floating around, showing up on BW.
So from what I understand, I can take 100mg ED Aromasin, and it will not affect the BW value of Estrogen.

Of course the doc seeing my/your BW know we are on cycle bc, the Test/Estro values.

**5x10** · 03-30-2011, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by First Timer 42

U said it in your first post. The Aromasin attacks the enzyme, making it worthless, however leaving it still floating around, showing up on BW.
So from what I understand, I can take 100mg ED Aromasin, and it will not affect the BW value of Estrogen.

Of course the doc seeing my/your BW know we are on cycle bc, the Test/Estro values.

if you started the aromasin from the beginning, there shouldnt be any estro as there was never any aromatization
or you werent taking enough, so there were enzymes left that did attach to the test
so if yuo up your aromasin and eliminate more enzymes, there should be less conversion into estro
why wouldnt aromasin help decline the amount of estro in your system? i understand it cant do anything to the estro thats already converted, but going forward, upping the dose should reduce the estro(simply by eliminating the fuel need to get the estro)

also, in regards to blood panel, i was talking about cholesterol/lipids only
what is the avg users blood most common to?

**Flier** · 03-30-2011, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by 5x10

if you started the aromasin from the beginning, there shouldnt be any estro as there was never any aromatization
or you werent taking enough, so there were enzymes left that did attach to the test
so if yuo up your aromasin and eliminate more enzymes, there should be less conversion into estro
why wouldnt aromasin help decline the amount of estro in your system? i understand it cant do anything to the estro thats already converted, but going forward, upping the dose should reduce the estro(simply by eliminating the fuel need to get the estro)

also, in regards to blood panel, i was talking about cholesterol/lipids only
what is the avg users blood most common to?

Hmm..so then I don´t understand how Aromasin works. I agree with what you´re saying if I was using Adex.
But Aromasin does not stop the Aromatization process ie the body´s production of Estrogen. It only render the Estrogen ineffective by deactivating the enzyme so it will not bind to the receptors. The Estrogen will still float around in the blood.....???

**5x10** · 03-30-2011, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by First Timer 42

Hmm..so then I don´t understand how Aromasin works. I agree with what you´re saying if I was using Adex.
But Aromasin does not stop the Aromatization process ie the body´s production of Estrogen. It only render the Estrogen ineffective by deactivating the enzyme so it will not bind to the receptors. The Estrogen will still float around in the blood.....???

heres how i understand it
test floats around in your blood, binds where it can, and the rest is left in your blood until it connects with an aromatization enzyme, where the connection converts test into estro
so test+enzyme=estro
aromasin eliminates this enzyme permanently, so there is no conversion into estro as we have eliminated the enzyme from the equation
so if you did not take enough aromasin to eliminate all or a majority of the enzymes in your blood, then there would have been a conversion into estro, just not as much as it would have been with aromasin
so upping the dose should help lower your estro(once the current estro in your system is gone)

**Far from massive** · 03-30-2011, 08:28 AM

Maybe someone with some actual premed education or the like can comment on this as I have posed this question before. If you take your estrogen count on its own then yes it is very high. However if you compare the ratio of estrogen to test its quite low, that is normally the estrogen numbers can be up to twice that of the test (normal max estro 18 normal max test 9.9) where in your case you current estro is less than half of your test (esto 31 test 79).

I have been curious about this a while as estro is critical to muscle growth so maybe the AI is crushing 80% of the aromatization leaving this amount behind and maybe its a harmless amount in view of the radically increased Test counts?

Would love to hear some feeling on this from some of the pros particularly if backed with data to support the conclusions.

**jimmyinkedup** · 03-30-2011, 09:55 AM

My feeling is this. Estrogen in the abscence of adverse sides is not an issue. The goal isnt to increase test and keep estrogen within normal phisiological levels. Estrogen provdes some benfit on cycle - amoug those one is help in manging cholesterol as well as libido maintenance.
Honestly what surprises me is what i would consiuder a low total test level considering the 500mg/week dosage.
That being said it really is irrelavent so who cares - because look at that great free test # and that low shbg #(directly corrolated)...nice.
If you compare your free test levels to estrogen levels it appears clear that the aromasin is doing its job.

**Swifto** · 03-30-2011, 12:32 PM

Aromasin will lower serum estrogen levels by deactivating and subsequently killing the aromatase enzyme (cytochrome P450) or preventing it from doing its job. Its a irriversable or suicidal AI.

**Flier** · 03-30-2011, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Swifto

Aromasin will lower serum estrogen levels by deactivating and subsequently killing the aromatase enzyme (cytochrome P450) or preventing it from doing its job. Its a irriversable or suicidal AI.

Ok, so Estrogen levels will still show up high on BW when using Aromasin as opposed to Adex?
A high Estro level on BW does not indicate that I should increase the Aromasin dose, right.

...thanks for stopping by...

**5x10** · 03-30-2011, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by First Timer 42

Ok, so Estrogen levels will still show up high on BW when using Aromasin as opposed to Adex?
A high Estro level on BW does not indicate that I should increase the Aromasin dose, right.

...thanks for stopping by...

adex is the same but it doesn kill the enzyme, its a temporary attachment to the enzyme
once adex wears off, the enzyme is free again to bind with test
hence the estrogen rebound you get from adex and letro

**Swifto** · 03-30-2011, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by 5x10

adex is the same but it doesn kill the enzyme, its a temporary attachment to the enzyme
once adex wears off, the enzyme is free again to bind with test
hence the estrogen rebound you get from adex and letro

Exactly.

Exemestane will still lower estrogen, it wont show up high at all. It, in theory, should keep serum estrogen down longer due to its mechanism.