The Myth of Keepable Gains

[5x10]

im not trying to be an ass here, but im skeptical about keepable gains and im just trying to look at it logically

heres a few reason why i dont think there is such a thing as keepable gains

first, i want to make sure we know the effects of steroids which enable us to grow while on cycle
-increased nitrogen retention
-increase in rbc's(increased endurance)
-increase in water retention(cellular leverage)
-increased creatine
-increased recovery
and im sure im missing alot of other factors here
this is all done by manipulating our hormone levels and in response, we get bigger and stronger
correct me if im wrong, but im pretty sure ive read some articles that showed people that took roids and didnt work out actually gained lbm
anyways, my point was, steroids will make you bigger and stronger

second, the bodys response to increased weights
its known that lifting heavier weights will cause an increase in bigger, stronger muscle fibers, which will increase the size of your muscle. but we all have that genetic hormonal govenor which limits our growth. steroids breaks that hormonal barrier and allows us to grow our muscles by the factors listed above. of all the people i have been around that has done a cycle, i have yet to see one keep the strength gains obtained on a cycle of steroids. all my personal bests are when i was on cycle and i havent been able to replicate it off cycle. its simply because i cannot genetically get my muscles that big without the help of additional testosterone. so how can you expect to keep your gains, when you cannot provide the weights needed for your body to keep that large of a muscle? the body will always adjust to its how its worked

third, the law of averages
the real problem with keepable gains is this, people cycle too often to truely see what is being kept. keepable gains are often looked at at the end of pct, when in reality, the user has just gotten back to normal levels . why not look at keepable gains 10-12 weeks after you get back to normal? or better yet, 1 yr after your last cycle.
lets look at 2 scenerios and assume all other variable(like diet, training, rest, etc) are constant
scenerio a: guy cycles 2 times a year(2, 10 week cycles of test 400)
scenerio b: guy cycles once every 5 years(1, 10 week cycle of test 400)

we look at these guys at day one, and at the end of the 5th year
im pretty confident that guy a would come out looking like he made some real gains over that time period, in comparison to guy b
but if you look at the #s, it all makes sense
guy a avg'ed a significantly higher amount of test in his system against guy b, over 5 years
in other words, keepable gains = more cycles
lets look at guy b, how much do you think he would have kept after a cycle 5 years ago? not much, as the law of averages would dictate his hormonal level to be much closer to normal levels. He wont appear to have kept any gains, and again, this is for an advanced lifter who has his variables all lined up.

im posting this so people dont hope depend on the drug for keepable gains. i view cycles of steroids as brief periods of fun. ive lifted for 17 yrs and will lift till the day i die. cycles allow me to supercharge my workouts not to mention the best sex ever. but its still a drug that should be used in moderation. its easy to get hooked, to look at the next cycle, to fear coming off. i can say it easily the most addictive drug ive ever tried. i think the real weapon is diet. like the hormones, your body will respond to foods, and if you keep that diet up, your muscles will respond, all while keeping your hormones levels constant.

[AlphaMaleDawg]

didn't really read anything you said, but over time, it is impossible to keep all gains you made beyond your genetic limit. Reason is you don't have the luxury of the hormones still being in your system. All you can do is prolong it as long as possible

[dec11]

im not trying to be an ass here, but im skeptical about keepable gains and im just trying to look at it logically

heres a few reason why i dont think there is such a thing as keepable gains

first, i want to make sure we know the effects of steroids which enable us to grow while on cycle
-increased nitrogen retention
-increase in rbc's(increased endurance)
-increase in water retention(cellular leverage)
-increased creatine
-increased recovery
and im sure im missing alot of other factors here
this is all done by manipulating our hormone levels and in response, we get bigger and stronger
correct me if im wrong, but im pretty sure ive read some articles that showed people that took roids and didnt work out actually gained lbm
anyways, my point was, steroids will make you bigger and stronger

second, the bodys response to increased weights
its known that lifting heavier weights will cause an increase in bigger, stronger muscle fibers, which will increase the size of your muscle. but we all have that genetic hormonal govenor which limits our growth. steroids breaks that hormonal barrier and allows us to grow our muscles by the factors listed above. of all the people i have been around that has done a cycle, i have yet to see one keep the strength gains obtained on a cycle of steroids. all my personal bests are when i was on cycle and i havent been able to replicate it off cycle. its simply because i cannot genetically get my muscles that big without the help of additional testosterone. so how can you expect to keep your gains, when you cannot provide the weights needed for your body to keep that large of a muscle? the body will always adjust to its how its worked

third, the law of averages
the real problem with keepable gains is this, people cycle too often to truely see what is being kept. keepable gains are often looked at at the end of pct, when in reality, the user has just gotten back to normal levels . why not look at keepable gains 10-12 weeks after you get back to normal? or better yet, 1 yr after your last cycle.
lets look at 2 scenerios and assume all other variable(like diet, training, rest, etc) are constant
scenerio a: guy cycles 2 times a year(2, 10 week cycles of test 400)
scenerio b: guy cycles once every 5 years(1, 10 week cycle of test 400)

we look at these guys at day one, and at the end of the 5th year
im pretty confident that guy a would come out looking like he made some real gains over that time period, in comparison to guy b
but if you look at the #s, it all makes sense
guy a avg'ed a significantly higher amount of test in his system against guy b, over 5 years
in other words, keepable gains = more cycles
lets look at guy b, how much do you think he would have kept after a cycle 5 years ago? not much, as the law of averages would dictate his hormonal level to be much closer to normal levels. He wont appear to have kept any gains, and again, this is for an advanced lifter who has his variables all lined up.

im posting this so people dont hope depend on the drug for keepable gains. i view cycles of steroids as brief periods of fun. ive lifted for 17 yrs and will lift till the day i die. cycles allow me to supercharge my workouts not to mention the best sex ever. but its still a drug that should be used in moderation. its easy to get hooked, to look at the next cycle, to fear coming off. i can say it easily the most addictive drug ive ever tried. i think the real weapon is diet. like the hormones, your body will respond to foods, and if you keep that diet up, your muscles will respond, all while keeping your hormones levels constant.

i agree, steroids are an 'of the moment' drug and, in my case anyhow, you keep extremely little from a cycle

[gthom47]

from what i have read, researched, and seen as long as you keep your diet and workouts in check you should be able to keep atleast some gains from a cycle. if i am totally wrong in my research someone please tell me.

you do make very good points and obviously you cant keep everything because it is an addition beyond what your body can do naturally so it cant then magically sustain that naturally. but from what i have read you can keep some of it really long term with good diet and routine.

[dec11]

from what i have read, researched, and seen as long as you keep your diet and workouts in check you should be able to keep atleast some gains from a cycle. if i am totally wrong in my research someone please tell me.

you do make very good points and obviously you cant keep everything because it is an addition beyond what your body can do naturally so it cant then magically sustain that naturally. but from what i have read you can keep some of it really long term with good diet and routine.

i cant speak for everyone in the world, but four friends i have also shrink back down after cycles, no matter what.
maybe afew in every 100 are lucky and keep something

[Bigd89]

Then what the fvck is the point in cycling if you don't keep your gains?!?

Reconsidering my cycle...

[dec11]

Then what the fvck is the point in cycling if you don't keep your gains?!?

Reconsidering my cycle...

holy fvck!!!! we getting through now

[Bigd89]

holy fvck!!!! we getting through now

Lmao. I don't see the point to cycle if im not going to keep my gains. The risks outweigh the benefits...not worth it.

[dec11]

Lmao. I don't see the point to cycle if im not going to keep my gains. The risks outweigh the benefits...not worth it.

thats how it goes for 90%, up and down like a balloon. im hitting a big one on top of my trt soon and if i cant maintain at least half the gains i'll never cycle again after it. an investment on continual hgh is my move if im not satisfied

[SMcB]

I now realize it would be impossible to get permanent gains if you are already at your genetic limit. Unnaturally high levels of external test = increased strength and protein synthesis = extra muscle weight. So it only makes sense that if you take away the high levels of test, the body comes back down to baseline. Anyone who claims to have gotten permanent gains from steroid use is either: 1. Still taking steroids (even though they may be on a lower 'cruise' dose) or 2. Were not at their natural genetic limit before taking steroids.

[VV Cephei]

Lmao. I don't see the point to cycle if im not going to keep my gains. The risks outweigh the benefits...not worth it.

This is the main reason that makes me struggle with the decision to do a cycle or not.

[tapout417]

Im in the same boat as awms. I see great gains at what some would consider low doses of gear. This last time after pct and time off I was able to keep 11lbs. So if I can manage at least 5lbs a couple times a year I'm good. You going to get a mixed review on this and its going to come down to the individual.

[kleaver]

lol... because size isn't always the only thing you get out of a cycle...
think of it this way... with the benefits of gear, you can lift more for different physiological reasons.

as a benefit of that, you hypertrophy the existing cells, and create some hyperplasia (or grow new muscle cells).
after you lose some water retention and the hormones level out to normal--- you'll lose some weight, and some mass, but you don't ATROPHY... you'll still have more muscle fiber to help you lift heavier than before you started your cycle

it's the principle of supercompensation... which i won't get into b'c im lazy with typing... but think of it in this easy way... you satart at level 0... gear takes you to level two, you shrink to level 1... repeat. if you're ONLY goal is size, then there will be a limit based on genetics, etc... but some people use gear for power, or fat-loss, or whatever.

just my thoughts, and what i've seen. it's not only about what you do ON gear.. but what you can do differently AFTER, which will help you build up inbetween cycles... more so than you would have been able to before

[dec11]

lol... because size isn't always the only thing you get out of a cycle...
think of it this way... with the benefits of gear, you can lift more for different physiological reasons.

as a benefit of that, you hypertrophy the existing cells, and create some hyperplasia (or grow new muscle cells).
after you lose some water retention and the hormones level out to normal--- you'll lose some weight, and some mass, but you don't ATROPHY... you'll still have more muscle fiber to help you lift heavier than before you started your cycle

it's the principle of supercompensation... which i won't get into b'c im lazy with typing... but think of it in this easy way... you satart at level 0... gear takes you to level two, you shrink to level 1... repeat. if you're ONLY goal is size, then there will be a limit based on genetics, etc... but some people use gear for power, or fat-loss, or whatever.

just my thoughts, and what i've seen. it's not only about what you do ON gear.. but what you can do differently AFTER, which will help you build up inbetween cycles... more so than you would have been able to before

speculative at best, i go by my strength and mirror and i always dropped down again, in my cycling days

[delta1111]

lol... because size isn't always the only thing you get out of a cycle...
think of it this way... with the benefits of gear, you can lift more for different physiological reasons.

as a benefit of that, you hypertrophy the existing cells, and create some hyperplasia (or grow new muscle cells).
after you lose some water retention and the hormones level out to normal--- you'll lose some weight, and some mass, but you don't ATROPHY... you'll still have more muscle fiber to help you lift heavier than before you started your cycle

it's the principle of supercompensation... which i won't get into b'c im lazy with typing... but think of it in this easy way... you satart at level 0... gear takes you to level two, you shrink to level 1... repeat. if you're ONLY goal is size, then there will be a limit based on genetics, etc... but some people use gear for power, or fat-loss, or whatever.

just my thoughts, and what i've seen. it's not only about what you do ON gear.. but what you can do differently AFTER, which will help you build up inbetween cycles... more so than you would have been able to before

Everything i've read suggests that AAS only serves to increase the size of a muscle cell and that only HGH can grow new muscle cells!

[sanman]

I am no expert on doing AAS at no means.But I know when I do start my cycle & when it ends I will not be keeping the gains I did have while cycling.For the 12 wks I do cycle I am going to feel great & push myself in the gym even harder if i wasnt on the juice.I know I will look good for those wks & hopfully a few wks after & thats it! Hopfully i would look good for this summer.

[Turkish Juicer]

Everything i've read suggests that AAS only serves to increase the size of a muscle cell and that only HGH can grow new muscle cells!

That is correct.

AAS = Cell hypertrophy (cells growing in size).

HGH = Cell hyperplasia (cells growing in number).

delta1111's post consists of incorrect info for the most part. He has not done his research well, quite obviously. Everyone is entitled to freely express their opinons, however, this should not stand for degenerating scientific inquiry.

Lastly, when AAS are used along with HGH, long terms benefits are greater (as well as the risks) for the user since HGH actually has the capacity to alter one's genetic composition through directly manipulating the make up of his organism. Both in theory and practice, gains will be kept to a great extent when the user is on HGH for prolonged periods of time. HGH is agressively used by BB's today and my personal opinion is that most ''freak of nature'' types in BB today owe their out-of-this-world looks to the agressive use of HGH along with AAS.

[delta1111]

That is correct.

AAS = Cell hypertrophy (cells growing in size).

HGH = Cell hyperplasia (cells growing in number).

delta1111's post consists of incorrect info for the most part. He has not done his research well, quite obviously. Everyone is entitled to freely express their opinons, however, this should not stand for degenerating scientific inquiry.

Lastly, when AAS are used along with HGH, long terms benefits are greater (as well as the risks) for the user since HGH actually has the capacity to alter one's genetic composition through directly manipulating the make up of his organism. Both in theory and practice, gains will be kept to a great extent when the user is on HGH for prolonged periods of time. HGH is agressively used by BB's today and my personal opinion is that most ''freak of nature'' types in BB today owe their out-of-this-world looks to the agressive use of HGH along with AAS.

Turkish Juicer, I think you are confused, I didn't post the original comment, just the correction regarding the effects of AAS compared to HGH.

Original post was submitted by "kleaver"

[Ashop]

Most people fail to keep gains because they get lazy and dont continue to eat or train as hard when they come off cycle
and many fail to even do a proper PCT.

[kleaver]

no... aas changes the level of hormones in your body. the type of training: percentage of 1rm you lift, volume (reps and sets) will determine how your muscles respond. to make a blanket statement (and i'm generalizing, so don't flame me for this) anywhere from 1rm-6rm will produce power and resulting hyperplasia... 8-12rm will produce hypertrophy and grow size of the individual muscle cell... and anythign over 15reps will demand so much oxygen that you are using different energy sources, and will produce a vascularizing effect on the muscles (a demand for O2 results in more capillaries to deliver the O2).

HGH and aas are different chemicals, which do different things in the body... that being said, aas can achieve any of the three goals mentioned above... muscle strength, muscle size, or muscle endurance

[stevey_6t9]

Everything i've read suggests that AAS only serves to increase the size of a muscle cell and that only HGH can grow new muscle cells!

satellite cells are dormant muscle cells that once activated can fuse into a existing muscle cell (hypertrophy) or form new fibres (hyperplasia) by proliferating into myoblasts which results in new muscle cells... But then again satellite cells are activated in response to a stress stimulus also, so regardless if your on test or GH, resistance training can result in the both (just not as fast). So AAS can result in hyperplasia.

[Angel of death]

I'd say the better your generics, the better you train and eat, the more gains you keep. straight up

[D7M]

Keeping gains? TRT is the new PCT

[hwy1378]

Keeping gains? TRT is the new PCT

Thats what im doing, my natural Test levels are to low 125 natually so my PCT is 200 Test Cyp a week plus 3iu HGH a day

[yungone501]

Keeping gains? TRT is the new PCT

Absolute genius...

[RoidReaper]

Absolute genius...

F*ck that, if i have to, ill blast 10iu a day of HGH to keep everything.

[dec11]

F*ck that, if i have to, ill blast 10iu a day of HGH to keep everything.

best to look at hgh in its only entity rather than a saviour imo

[Bigd89]

I might have to try me some of that TRT

[D7M]

I guess I should put this caveat in: I wasn't suggesting everyone go out and put themselves on a TRT program of cruising and blasting, but its for the right people at the right time. And then, yes, gains are quite keepable

[dec11]

By Robbie Durand, MA

ANABOLIC STEROIDS PROVIDE A COMPETITIVE EDGE IN POWERLIFTING YEARS AFTER DOPING HAS ENDED

“It is possible that the high number of nuclei we found in muscle after steroid use might be beneficial for an athlete who continues or resumes strength training, because increased myonuclei opens up the possibility of increasing protein synthesis, which can lead to muscle mass. Based on the characteristics between doped and non-doped powerlifters, we conclude that a period of anabolic steroid usage is an advantage for a powerlifter in competition, even several years after they stop taking a doping drug.”— Dr. Anders Eriksson

It is well known that the use of anabolic steroids has powerful anabolic effects on skeletal muscles; however, the molecular mechanisms after steroid use are unknown. Many drug-free powerlifting meets allow former steroid users to compete as long as they are “clean” at the meet. Former anabolic steroid users who are “clean” may have enhanced performance benefits years after using steroids, according to a new study presented at the American Physiological Society. Dr. Anders Eriksson presented research an astounding abstract titled, “Anabolic Steroids Withdrawal in Strength Trained Athletes: How Does It Affect Skeletal Muscles?" A team of researchers examined the impact of anabolic steroid use on powerlifters years after the athletes had ceased to take the drugs. The researchers found that while physical traces of the drug no longer remained, changes in the shoulder and quadriceps still gave lifters an advantage, years later.1

Study Breakdown
Muscle characteristics were compared for groups of powerlifters who were currently using steroids, had history of past steroid abuse but were clean at the time of the study, and lifetime drug-free lifters. One thing that should be mentioned is that the groups of former steroid users were either training at a low intensity, or had quit lifting and become sedentary. The former steroid users had used testosterone in combination with other anabolic steroids (nandrolone, stanozolol, Primobolan, oxymetholone, Masteron, Proviron and durobolan). A mean dosage of 938mg of testosterone per week was used during the anabolic steroid usage.2, 4 Muscle fiber distribution, fiber area, androgen receptors, and satellite cell number per muscle fiber were analyzed in two skeletal muscles: the thigh and the trapezius.

The researchers found that several years after anabolic steroid withdrawal, and with no or low current strength training, the muscle fiber area and the number of nuclei per fiber in the quadriceps was still comparable to that of athletes who were currently performing high-intensity strength training. They also discovered that the shoulder-neck fiber areas were comparable to high-intensity trained athletes and the number of nuclei per fiber was even higher than found in the current steroid-using group. Interestingly, the group of powerlifters who had abused steroids but were clean at the time of the study had a greater number of androgen receptors in the thigh, compared to that of the natural powerlifters and powerlifting group currently using steroids.
In conclusion, several years after anabolic steroid withdrawal and with no or low-intensity strength-training, the muscle fiber area and the number of nuclei per fiber in the thigh is still comparable to that of athletes who are performing high-intensity strength training. In trapezius, fiber areas are comparable to high-intensity trained athletes. The number of nuclei per fiber is even higher than in the steroid-using group. The high number of nuclei might be beneficial for an athlete who continues or resumes strength training, because a high number of myonuclei gives the possibility to an increased protein synthesis and increased muscle mass. These results can be interpreted to indicate that a period of anabolic steroid usage is an advantage for a powerlifter in competition several years after secession of drug intake.

Detraining: Comparing Natural Lifters and Former Steroid Abusers
Detraining is associated with a gradual decrease in muscle size and satellite cell activation. A previous study examined the effects of training and detraining on muscle size in young, healthy males. The young males trained intensely for 90 days, then refrained from exercise for 90 days. During training, there was a robust increase in satellite cells and muscle size. Satellite cell content increased by 19.3 percent at 30 days of training and by 31.4 percent at 90 days of training. The number of satellite cells per fiber remained significantly elevated at three, 10 and 60 days of detraining. Thus, the increase in satellite cell numbers is maintained for a long time after the cessation of training. At 90 days of detraining, the number of satellite cells per fiber had returned to pre-training values.3 Detraining was associated with a gradual decrease in the area of muscle fibers.
The size of the myonuclear domain returned to pre-training values. What was shocking was that although the former steroid group was either training with low intensity or not training at all, the muscle fiber area and the number of nuclei per fiber in the thigh is still comparable to that of athletes performing high-intensity strength training. In trapezius, fiber areas are comparable to high-intensity-trained athletes and the number of nuclei per fiber is even higher than in the steroid-using group. This study suggests that testosterone administration has long-term effects on skeletal muscle that scientists still know very little about. Based on this study, there may be no such meaning to the term “clean now” and based on this, anabolic steroids can have positive effects in muscle years later.

References:

1. American Physiological Society (2008, October 3). Anabolic Steroids Provide A Competitive Edge In Powerlifting Years After Doping Has Ended.
2. Eriksson A, Kadi F, Malm C, Thornell LE. Skeletal muscle morphology in power-lifters with and without anabolic steroids.Histochem Cell Biol, 2005 Aug;124(2):167-75.
3. Kadi F, Schjerling P, Andersen LL, Charifi N, Madsen JL, Christensen LR, Andersen JL. The effects of heavy resistance training and detraining on satellite cells in human skeletal muscles. J Physiol, 2004 Aug 1;558(Pt 3):1005-12.
4. Kadi F, Eriksson A, Holmner S, Thornell LE. Effects of anabolic steroids on the muscle cells of strength-trained athletes.Med Sci Sports Exerc, 1999 Nov;31(11):1528-34.

as a powerlifter i can dispute that stupid study. after my third cycle and beyond when i went off, i felt weaker than i had when i was natural

Keeping gains? TRT is the new PCT

only thing thts kept me my strength and gains and allows me to shed the bf without losing much if any muscle

[PK-V]

as a powerlifter i can dispute that stupid study. after my third cycle and beyond when i went off, i felt weaker than i had when i was natural

Of course that's the other side of the coin

But if you grow a muscle larger than naturally capable and you come off
and you shrink a bit
and continue to train naturally you should have more potential to work with
due to muscle memory and increased motor cortex reorganization


Of course in theory it makes sense

But of course real world results scream louder

But also a lot of other factors can play a roll

[dirtybrd]

What about when your body sees itself at a heavier weight for a long period of time? Doesn't it change itself to stay that size? Kinda like when fat people lose alot of weight, naturally their body wants to go back to the heavier weight, but if they keep the weight off the body will get used to it and stop fighting to gain it back? Right or wrong?

[dec11]

What about when your body sees itself at a heavier weight for a long period of time? Doesn't it change itself to stay that size? Kinda like when fat people lose alot of weight, naturally their body wants to go back to the heavier weight, but if they keep the weight off the body will get used to it and stop fighting to gain it back? Right or wrong?

wrong, diet dependant and nothing else

[jimmyinkedup]

I have quite a few thoghts on this topic. I , unfortunately, dont have time to respond in full now. I think it depends alot on TYPE of steroids used (more anabolic or more androgenic) , continued diet and training , and other factors. Will all gains be lost if you stop everything ? Juice , diet, and training - of course without a doubt. Will you retain more muscle than you ever would have without cycling if you contnue to train and eat properly after using steroids? In my opnion yes. If you stop for years and go back on will your body more easily regain the muscle lost - yes. I'll expand on my opinions later - its a good topic.....

[brad1986]

What about when your body sees itself at a heavier weight for a long period of time? Doesn't it change itself to stay that size? Kinda like when fat people lose alot of weight, naturally their body wants to go back to the heavier weight, but if they keep the weight off the body will get used to it and stop fighting to gain it back? Right or wrong?

This is interesting... i wonder the same thing quite often. thats why i thought 12 weeks cycles may be more keepable then 8 weeks cycles. ??

[pebble]

What about when your body sees itself at a heavier weight for a long period of time? Doesn't it change itself to stay that size? Kinda like when fat people lose alot of weight, naturally their body wants to go back to the heavier weight, but if they keep the weight off the body will get used to it and stop fighting to gain it back? Right or wrong?

There is strong evidence to suggest that there is a set point. Theory is based off of evidence that when one gains or loses weight the body will either increase or decrease metabolism below or above the expected required level of maintenance. Read there is a break in linearity of the body mass to kcal required relationship. The slope increases when one gains weight and decreases when one loses weight. However, the body can be forced to readjust its set points just like any other regulation in the body (i.e. baroreceptors for BP) with constant reinforcement. I this case it means eating the right amount to maintain a specific weight over a long period of time.

As for hyperplasia, guys its rare, very rare. It is usually only observed in chickens when the have literally attached weight to their wings for weeks at a time. The constant stimulus drives satellite cells to turn into myoblasts and subsequently myofilaments. Working out 6 days a week 4 hours a day doesn't even come close to comparing to the volume of stimulus the chickens require to have this adaption.

[Matt]

Just something to think about, i have a friend who ive trained with on and off for many years, he's never touched an aas in his life and doesn't even go for protein powders, creatine ect ect.

When he's been training for months and months none stop he looks great, big as though he's trained hard all his life. But when he stops training for a few weeks he loses everything, he can look like he's never trained in his life in just a few weeks...

[dec11]

Just something to think about, i have a friend who ive trained with on and off for many years, he's never touched an aas in his life and doesn't even go for protein powders, creatine ect ect.

When he's been training for months and months none stop he looks great, big as though he's trained hard all his life. But when he stops training for a few weeks he loses everything, he can look like he's never trained in his life in just a few weeks...

im considering breaking with these, the older i get the more i reckon we are just caught up in an advertising hysteria about this stuff.

as regarding the friends weight loss, its very true when it comes to muscle mass, use it or lose it, the body wont waste energy maintaining something it has no use for. amazing how its own built in blueprint system works! if only we could permanently fool the b@stard

[RoidReaper]

So what if you did this. What if you did a cycle, Test (and whatever else) along with HGH around 4-5ius a day, and continued HGH throughout PCT and just stayed on HGH, would you keep your gains coming off?

[dec11]

So what if you did this. What if you did a cycle, Test (and whatever else) along with HGH around 4-5ius a day, and continued HGH throughout PCT and just stayed on HGH, would you keep your gains coming off?

have you any easier q's? lol