First Cycle, advice needed before the plunge!

[kinderbueno]

Hi, I'm 21 5'7" 68Kgs 10% bf have been working out for 2 years, good diet etc..

I'm going to start my first cycle within the next 2 months and want your advice on my cycle and PCT before I go ahead as I have a couple of queries. This is the cycle I am planning on doing:

Week Dosages
1 400mg Test-C 20mg D-Bol ED
2 400mg Test-C 20mg D-Bol ED
3 400mg Test-C 20mg D-Bol ED
4 400mg Test-C 20mg D-Bol ED
5 400mg Test-C
6 400mg Test-C
7 400mg Test-C
8 400mg Test-C
9 400mg Test-C
10 400mg Test-C
11 400mg Test-C
12 400mg Test-C
**18 days after last injection of Test C**
Clomid 25mgED Nolva 20mgED Aromasin 20mgED
14 Clomid 25mgED Nolva 20mgED Aromasin 20mgED
15 Clomid 25mgED Nolva 20mgED Aromasin 20mgED
16 Clomid 25mgED Nolva 20mgED
17 Clomid 25mgED Nolva 20mgED


Other Supplements used throughout:
Milk Thistle
Nizoral Shampoo
Glutamine Solphate
Multivitamin
Fish Oil
Flax Seed oil

********************************************

However, I was reading Bignats post on steroids for dummies and he recommended this:

Cycle 4:
1 – 4 D-bol 40mg ED
1 – 10 Cyp 400mg/wk
1 – 12 Nolvadex 10mg ED
1 – 12 L-dex .25mg ED

Start PCT 18 days after last Cyp injection

Now, I know PCT can be very confusing so I am probably just being an idiot, but could someone point me into the right direction?


Advice would be greatly appreciated!

[MBMETC]

sorry bro but at 21 no one will advice you on how to cycle

[kinderbueno]

FFS really? Okay, well I am going to quote from the home page "If youe;re under eighteen years old, you probably haven´t stopped growing yet. So answering  no to my first question means you run a very real risk of stunting your growth if you should choose to use steroids . In addition, I suppose there´s some kind of moral/ethical/legal issue in telling a minor that it´s alright to use steroids . So lets assume that if you´re still reading this, you´re of legal age to vote (but perhaps not to buy a beer which is another issue altogether )."

I am 21, so why can't I use roids. I am probably more advanced than most of the 26 year olds who gear up on here anyway. It is my body and my life so I can do what I want with it, why can't you guys just help me out?

[Eazy20]

FFS really? Okay, well I am going to quote from the home page "If youe;re under eighteen years old, you probably haven´t stopped growing yet. So answering no to my first question means you run a very real risk of stunting your growth if you should choose to use steroids . In addition, I suppose there´s some kind of moral/ethical/legal issue in telling a minor that it´s alright to use steroids . So lets assume that if you´re still reading this, you´re of legal age to vote (but perhaps not to buy a beer which is another issue altogether )."

I am 21, so why can't I use roids. I am probably more advanced than most of the 26 year olds who gear up on here anyway. It is my body and my life so I can do what I want with it, why can't you guys just help me out?

You are totally right. It is your body and your life and you are more than welcome to put whatever you want in it if you're 21 years old or 5 years old. HOWEVER, that being said, the general rule of thumb here is that your endocrine system is still developing up until 24-25 yrs old on average; and as such we are in no way inclined to help you in your endeavors. If you want to cycle before the recommended age on this forum, you'll have to do your own research and take the risk on your own. Good luck to you, and I hope you're wise enough to hold of a couple more years.

[kinderbueno]

Okay, I see where you are coming from and I appreciate it. I am going to book an appointment with my Doctor tomorrow anyway just so he can monitor me during my cycle. I'll check to see if my growth plates are closed yet, as I am taller than my mum and dad. If it turns out I still have a lot of growing to do I will wait another couple of years and then check again, if they are closed I'll go ahead. Fair?

[Eazy20]

Okay, I see where you are coming from and I appreciate it. I am going to book an appointment with my Doctor tomorrow anyway just so he can monitor me during my cycle. I'll check to see if my growth plates are closed yet, as I am taller than my mum and dad. If it turns out I still have a lot of growing to do I will wait another couple of years and then check again, if they are closed I'll go ahead. Fair?

Growth in height is not the only "growing" that occurs...Your brain is developing much far after growth plates have closed..Ie the endocrine system which is responsible for managing hormones and keeping your body in homeostasis. Flushing your body with an influx of synthetic hormones before your endocrine system is finished developing could cause a variety of very serious problems such as, erectile dysfunction and low test levels for life. Nothing like being 21 and telling your girlfriend that you need 30min for your viagra to kick in before you can get some.

[THE-DET-OAK]

you are too young as everyone has pointed out. everyone says your plates are closed by 21 but there is some eveidence that it takes more time than that. I myself grew like an inch and half from 21-25.

guys that are silly enough to cycle that young better go to the doc and see if they have closed. estrogen is what closes the plates. so young guys better take an AI to keep the E2 in normal range if they are going to go against the grain.

[kinderbueno]

Well I read that erectile dysfunction only really occurs in steroid abuse , the cycle I am doing is a smart first cycle with good PCT, I don't see how much can go wrong when I am not using huge dosages?

[THE-DET-OAK]

Well I read that erectile dysfunction only really occurs in steroid abuse, the cycle I am doing is a smart first cycle with good PCT, I don't see how much can go wrong when I am not using huge dosages?

the point is your endocrine system is still trying to find homeostasis at your age. meaning your homrones are fluctuating, trying to find the best medium. throwing a curve ball at them at this time is not wise, it could cause long-term reprocussions with your HPTA. like maybe you T will decline at an early age, or you will have high aromatase. maybe not though, who knows, its just not wise.

[Eazy20]

Well I read that erectile dysfunction only really occurs in steroid abuse, the cycle I am doing is a smart first cycle with good PCT, I don't see how much can go wrong when I am not using huge dosages?

Boss man, it can happen if you're taking doses far lower than what you have suggested. Any synthetic hormones you put inside of your body will disrupt your own natural production and without a fully developed endocrine system, you risk never getting it back. And just a FYI, there's no such thing as a smart first cycle at age 21

[MBMETC]

FFS really? Okay, well I am going to quote from the home page "If youe;re under eighteen years old, you probably haven´t stopped growing yet. So answering no to my first question means you run a very real risk of stunting your growth if you should choose to use steroids . In addition, I suppose there´s some kind of moral/ethical/legal issue in telling a minor that it´s alright to use steroids . So lets assume that if you´re still reading this, you´re of legal age to vote (but perhaps not to buy a beer which is another issue altogether )."

I am 21, so why can't I use roids. I am probably more advanced than most of the 26 year olds who gear up on here anyway. It is my body and my life so I can do what I want with it, why can't you guys just help me out?

at 5'7'' 150lbs why do you feel you need steroids to grow.
im 5'8" 192lbs and 13% bf surely you dont think you hit your natural limit

[THE-DET-OAK]

good point i didnt even catch that.

[kinderbueno]

Alright, I see that you guys are trying to look out for me as I'm considered 'young' in the steroid scene, but if I dropped the Dbol and just did Test-C would that be a safer option? I hear D-bol can be the one that causes the worst side effects.
TBH if I go the the doctors and ti all goes well I am most probably going to do a cycle, I would just prefer to have the best possible chances of it not screwing up. Surely you would prefer I did it with good advice, rather than do it alone and mess up?

Thanks

[kinderbueno]

I don't want to get as big as I can, I want to be 80/85Kgs shredded (<10%bf). I know on here everyone thinks you need to be as big as possible, but I train for aesthetics more than max size. And a cycle is exactly what that will help me achieve. I have my own personal reasons why I don't want to do a cycle later on.

[Eazy20]

Alright, I see that you guys are trying to look out for me as I'm considered 'young' in the steroid scene, but if I dropped the Dbol and just did Test-C would that be a safer option? I hear D-bol can be the one that causes the worst side effects.
TBH if I go the the doctors and ti all goes well I am most probably going to do a cycle, I would just prefer to have the best possible chances of it not screwing up. Surely you would prefer I did it with good advice, rather than do it alone and mess up?

Thanks

Not really, with all the advice I have given you, my conscience will be clear. It's up to you if you wish to listen to it or not, but hey, I've done quite a few cycles and this is your first, you must know more than me right? I said this once and I will say it again, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SAFE STEROID CYCLE AT AGE 21. You can mutilate your considered plan all you want, but if it contains a shred of AAS usage, it is not safe. You'll more than likely disregard everything I have said and do it anyway, so I will leave you to your thread. Good luck to you and I hope you don't have to have any uncomfortable conversations with the future girl.

[MBMETC]

I don't want to get as big as I can, I want to be 80/85Kgs shredded (<10%bf). I know on here everyone thinks you need to be as big as possible, but I train for aesthetics more than max size. And a cycle is exactly what that will help me achieve. I have my own personal reasons why I don't want to do a cycle later on.

you have been training 2 years and according to you your die is ok, if bb is in your blood you waould have your diet dialed in.
work on your diet and train hard and im sure your result will come. its been 2 years how about paying your dues.

[Windex]

21 5'7" 68Kgs 10%

Your smaller than some of the females that post on this forum and train at the gym I go to.

YOU WILL NOT KEEP ANY OF YOUR GAINS OR POUNDS LOST IF YOU CANNOT EAT PROPERLY.

Go to the diet section, get your diet fixed, and work on training & eating properly.

Everyone here has already mentioned everything else. You understand so little and your willing to potentially ruin your body for the rest of your life.

[kinderbueno]

I really do appreciate the advice you have given me and I will certainly take it on board and have a long think. I have about 2 months before I want to start anyway. I don't want you to think I'm some immature guy who thinks he knows it all, I just have my own goals and my own reasons for why I want to cycle now, it is a bit of a paradox I'm in. I want to research and know as much as possible before I do eventually start my cycle.

[kinderbueno]

almost 70 at 10% for my height (5'7") is actually pretty good, im well in proportion. My diet is good, I would be willing to bet my knowledge on diet is far superior to yours, I am a medical student with a very keen interest in BB, trust me when I say my diet is good.

[marcus300]

There isn't an exact age were we all stop developing and growing because this is determined by our genes and DNA, we are all genetically programmed individually and we inherit our genes from our parents. To give an exact age we stop growing would be incorrect because everyone's genetic blueprint is different.The main development of our bodies is up to the age of 21yrs of age but this can vary between individuals. There are parts of our bodies what carry on developing and adjusting slowly up until the age of 25yrs old, an example of this is the brain. The Endocrine system is a part of the brain what is very complex and keeps our bodies in a homeostasis state. Our testosterone levels start raising and roughly peak around 25yrs old and then start to slowly decline, so even though some of us may have stopped growing at the age of 21yrs old, others may still be developing up until the age of 25yrs old.

I have recently spoken to my Endo regarding this matter and he tells me that the HPTA is very sensitive and as many pathways how it regulates the human body, he states steroids disrupt the normal balance of hormones in the body which can cause reversible and irreversible changes at any age but risks are far more if you administrate exogenous androgens during development, this will put you in a very unnatural environment at a crucial time and your hormones should be treated with care especially in the early stages of maturity. The adverse effects can be erratic behaviour of the HPTA and potentially therapy when your older.

I did ask him what age he would think would be the safest as far as risk to damages and he said many endocrinologist suggest full maturation is reached by 25 years of age and this would also give the HPTA time to be established with your natural hormone balance and patterns. I personally feel 24-25yrs old would also be ideal starting point to get bloodwrok drawn to see exact what your natural levels are before starting any kind of cycles and waiting till you have reach your testosterone peak would be a good starting point, for me there is to much evidence over the forums and what I've seen personally over the last 25yrs I've been bodybuilding. Obviously it isn't going to be all 19- 21yr old bodybuilders who suffer side effects what are irreversible but I am edging on the side of caution what age I advice to the newbies.

[marcus300]

AGE
In humans your Endocrine system is not fully functional until an average age of 25yrs, although the main development is up to around 21yrs it still fluctuates a little bit up to its fully functional age. There is a risk of permanently damaging your HPTA if you take AAS to young and you could end up with symptoms of andropause and HRT for life. Symptoms could be Limp dick, low libido, depression, low energy, low endurance, erection problems and many more but.......are these the types of symptoms you want to have in your 20's?. Believe me its hard to cope with these in your 40's yet alone in your prime of your life.

Around this age your Testosterone levels are the highest they going to be in your life naturally, so use what you have and don't take the risk of damage, I am passionate about this because ive seen it many times with young kids wanting to looking like their heroes and they think the answer is in an injection/tablet.

Taking AAS to young can also cause problems with development, one other main problem is premature sealing of your epiphyeal bone and the consequences mean that you wont grow as big as your genetics could allow you to, there is a test which can be done to see if your growth plates have sealed yet but the average age is around 21yrs old.



TRAINING
You need a few years of hard training under your belt before even considering taking any kind of anabolic support, people who jump on a cycle to soon without having some quality years under their belt usually results in injuries, it takes time to develop your connective tissue, tendons and nervous system to heavy overload training. Slowly getting your own system use to these kinds of extreme's will only help in muscle growth later on when you do decide to start taking AAS.

Build a solid foundation for muscle tissue to grow and maintaining and development will be far greater than without it. Many younger guys will start cycling before they have reached their genetic potential which is crazy when a good solid diet and training program will be far beneficial and productive to muscle building.

Workouts should be mainly focused on basic movements with a priority of over loading the muscle each and ever time you train, increasing your strength and ability to lift in proper form will help with building the foundation for future development


DIET
A lot of younger bodybuilders don't know how to eat. Researching and understanding how your own body responds will help you get to your natural limit, the right food at the right time and a full understanding of proteins,carbs, and fats will only help you succeed in achieving your natural goals. Keeping a diet diary will also help you understand the importance of macro, nutrients, calories and should help you see in which areas you could be going wrong in adding lean muscle tissue.

No matter how much anabolic support you have it will be worthless without proper nutrition, food will help build and maintain your valued muscle weather its natural, cycling or in PCT. Adjusting your food intake and consuming muscle building foods coupled with a solid training program will help you achieve your natural limit and foundation before you start AAS use.

This area is a huge problem with the younger guys and I can't express enough how important diet/food is when first starting out, post and pre training nutrition are very important and understanding how to load and feed the body will help push growth and create a very natural anabolic environment.

[Bigd89]

Im 21 as well, bro. I was determined to cycle real soon but had a change of heart. I decided to play it safe and wait a couple more years. It sucks.

[MBMETC]

almost 70 at 10% for my height (5'7") is actually pretty good, im well in proportion. My diet is good, I would be willing to bet my knowledge on diet is far superior to yours, I am a medical student with a very keen interest in BB, trust me when I say my diet is good.

hey you sound like a doctor, you cant take criticism well...lol

[calgarian]

There isn't an exact age were we all stop developing and growing because this is determined by our genes and DNA, we are all genetically programmed individually and we inherit our genes from our parents. To give an exact age we stop growing would be incorrect because everyone's genetic blueprint is different.The main development of our bodies is up to the age of 21yrs of age but this can vary between individuals. There are parts of our bodies what carry on developing and adjusting slowly up until the age of 25yrs old, an example of this is the brain. The Endocrine system is a part of the brain what is very complex and keeps our bodies in a homeostasis state. Our testosterone levels start raising and roughly peak around 25yrs old and then start to slowly decline, so even though some of us may have stopped growing at the age of 21yrs old, others may still be developing up until the age of 25yrs old.

I have recently spoken to my Endo regarding this matter and he tells me that the HPTA is very sensitive and as many pathways how it regulates the human body, he states steroids disrupt the normal balance of hormones in the body which can cause reversible and irreversible changes at any age but risks are far more if you administrate exogenous androgens during development, this will put you in a very unnatural environment at a crucial time and your hormones should be treated with care especially in the early stages of maturity. The adverse effects can be erratic behaviour of the HPTA and potentially therapy when your older.

I did ask him what age he would think would be the safest as far as risk to damages and he said many endocrinologist suggest full maturation is reached by 25 years of age and this would also give the HPTA time to be established with your natural hormone balance and patterns. I personally feel 24-25yrs old would also be ideal starting point to get bloodwrok drawn to see exact what your natural levels are before starting any kind of cycles and waiting till you have reach your testosterone peak would be a good starting point, for me there is to much evidence over the forums and what I've seen personally over the last 25yrs I've been bodybuilding. Obviously it isn't going to be all 19- 21yr old bodybuilders who suffer side effects what are irreversible but I am edging on the side of caution what age I advice to the newbies.

AGE
In humans your Endocrine system is not fully functional until an average age of 25yrs, although the main development is up to around 21yrs it still fluctuates a little bit up to its fully functional age. There is a risk of permanently damaging your HPTA if you take AAS to young and you could end up with symptoms of andropause and HRT for life. Symptoms could be Limp dick, low libido, depression, low energy, low endurance, erection problems and many more but.......are these the types of symptoms you want to have in your 20's?. Believe me its hard to cope with these in your 40's yet alone in your prime of your life.

Around this age your Testosterone levels are the highest they going to be in your life naturally, so use what you have and don't take the risk of damage, I am passionate about this because ive seen it many times with young kids wanting to looking like their heroes and they think the answer is in an injection/tablet.

Taking AAS to young can also cause problems with development, one other main problem is premature sealing of your epiphyeal bone and the consequences mean that you wont grow as big as your genetics could allow you to, there is a test which can be done to see if your growth plates have sealed yet but the average age is around 21yrs old.



TRAINING
You need a few years of hard training under your belt before even considering taking any kind of anabolic support, people who jump on a cycle to soon without having some quality years under their belt usually results in injuries, it takes time to develop your connective tissue, tendons and nervous system to heavy overload training. Slowly getting your own system use to these kinds of extreme's will only help in muscle growth later on when you do decide to start taking AAS.

Build a solid foundation for muscle tissue to grow and maintaining and development will be far greater than without it. Many younger guys will start cycling before they have reached their genetic potential which is crazy when a good solid diet and training program will be far beneficial and productive to muscle building.

Workouts should be mainly focused on basic movements with a priority of over loading the muscle each and ever time you train, increasing your strength and ability to lift in proper form will help with building the foundation for future development


DIET
A lot of younger bodybuilders don't know how to eat. Researching and understanding how your own body responds will help you get to your natural limit, the right food at the right time and a full understanding of proteins,carbs, and fats will only help you succeed in achieving your natural goals. Keeping a diet diary will also help you understand the importance of macro, nutrients, calories and should help you see in which areas you could be going wrong in adding lean muscle tissue.

No matter how much anabolic support you have it will be worthless without proper nutrition, food will help build and maintain your valued muscle weather its natural, cycling or in PCT. Adjusting your food intake and consuming muscle building foods coupled with a solid training program will help you achieve your natural limit and foundation before you start AAS use.

This area is a huge problem with the younger guys and I can't express enough how important diet/food is when first starting out, post and pre training nutrition are very important and understanding how to load and feed the body will help push growth and create a very natural anabolic environment.

I dont think there is anything left to say.......

[kinderbueno]

Well as I have said before, my diet is good. I really don't need a lesson on how to diet and workout, I am on internet every night reading forums since I was 16, I have tried plenty of different workouts, some have been better than others eg. squats and milk (GOMAD), GVT, SS etc.. Put on some nice lean mass from those, but I want to be at about 80/85 with 10%bf by the end of the summer as I am going to a new university and don't want everyone to know I am doing roids. I have posted on some other forums and have got the necessary information I needed. I am robably doing to drop Dbol as it will reduce the risk of negative side effects (esp. at my age as you all keep kindly reminding me), can you at least give your opinions on that, without bashing me for considering roids or lecturing me on diet?

[marcus300]

You don't need steroids , and you do need help with your diet otherwise you wouldn't be 68kgs. You won't stop the negative sides. Your listening to the wrong people and I can see I'm wasting my time posting the information I've already posted. Best of luck you will need it.

[Windex]

Well as I have said before, my diet is good. I really don't need a lesson on how to diet and workout, I am on internet every night reading forums since I was 16, I have tried plenty of different workouts, some have been better than others eg. squats and milk (GOMAD), GVT, SS etc.. Put on some nice lean mass from those, but I want to be at about 80/85 with 10%bf by the end of the summer as I am going to a new university and don't want everyone to know I am doing roids. I have posted on some other forums and have got the necessary information I needed. I am robably doing to drop Dbol as it will reduce the risk of negative side effects (esp. at my age as you all keep kindly reminding me), can you at least give your opinions on that, without bashing me for considering roids or lecturing me on diet?

I get paid $50, 000.00 a year in scholarships EXTRA ontop of all expenses paid to be in school and study medicine. That's right, I get paid more than most of the working class in your country, just to be in school. Do not try to flex your epeen on these forums, there will be someone better at something than yourself. For example, I'm probably one of the least muscular people on these forums.

Also studying medicine doesn't correlate to bodybuilding knowledge. I've been learning something new every day since I joined here. Marcus told you everything you need to know. As previously said, your posts are indicative of how stubborn you are. Your reluctance to re-examine your diet is evidence that you do actually think your a know-it-all.

Goodluck, you will definitely need it.

[kinderbueno]

I can see you are not one of the most muscular by your picture. I find it funny how you compare me to the physique of a girl, when for my height and bf I am a decent weight and size.. Shame the same can't be said about yourself.

[Honkey_Kong]

Kinderbueno, I can see you're not going to listen to anyone on here and go ahead with your cycle. I just hope you also have the ESPN package with your cable or satellite provider. You're going to need something to fill up your time when you cant get it up to plow your future girlfriend.

By the way, if you're 5'7 and 150lbs, you don't have a good diet. You don't eat enough to have a diet. I'm willing to bet your training sucks as much as your eating does too.

[Buddhabody]

I love the informaton on here......I'm always learning......Good luck to you bro.......My advice is to focus on your diet and hardcore lifting......Leave the gear alone for a few years. Best of luck to you