Pick apart my cycle

[miamiguy10]

Pick me apart, bros. This is the best I can come up with SO FAR based off availability and what I'm shooting for.

I'm 5'9 175lbs, ~13% bf, 29 years old, training very intensely for the past 18 months after on and off training since high school. In 2003 I took a test e cycle and in 2004 I took a test e/winny cycle. Did everything wrong, hadn't a clue what I was doing, and by 2008 was out of shape again. Now I'm easily back to the best shape I've been in since 2003. I've really turned my entire lifestyle, diet, and training around in the past ~2 years.

Anyway, here's what I've proposed to be my first cycle back in a few years.

Weeks 1-12 Test C 450mg/week
Weeks 1-10 Deca 300mg/week
Weeks 8-13 Winny 50mg/ED
Weeks 1-13 Arimidex .25mg E3D
Weeks 1-18 hcg 250iu twice a week
PCT would start on start of week 14 : Nolva 20/20/20/10 Clomid 100/50/50/50

Anything remotely right with this cycle? Opinions?

[THE-DET-OAK]

cycle looks pretty good to me, i would prolly up my HCG a lil, run deca at least 400mg and for at least 12 weeks. SERM treatment should start no sooner than 2 weeks after last shot of T.

if this is a bulking cycle i dont see a need for winny, unless you use a small dose like 10mg ED just to lower SHBG.

PS deca rocks

edit: people like to make cycles complicated, you can pretty much do anything you want with just test/deca test/tren ...............anything else is just.........well............. not really that important.

[miamiguy10]

Thanks for the reply man. The reason for the winny is just that I already have it (haha) and I'd like to get as cut up as I possibly can in the last 5 weeks, reasonably speaking considering what I'm taking.

But PCT looks good? Arimidex E3D sounds about right? hcg all the way through ?

[robofish]

I would personaly just do a cycle of test... i kinda started off the same why when i was in iraq i did test and deca (my first cycle even though i dont consider it a real cycle) than i got on here and became educated on the matter of AAS and after diet and workout was intact i did a cycle a while later of test e and mdrol. and had fantstic results. for me im glade i didnt throw deca in until my next cycle

[miamiguy10]

I would personaly just do a cycle of test... i kinda started off the same why when i was in iraq i did test and deca (my first cycle even though i dont consider it a real cycle) than i got on here and became educated on the matter of AAS and after diet and workout was intact i did a cycle a while later of test e and mdrol. and had fantstic results. for me im glade i didnt throw deca in until my next cycle

Yeah I've gotten mixed reviews on Deca but I figure at a low dose (300mg/week), with adex, and 450mg of test I should be OK. One of the main contributors was the help with joint pain on the winny.

[dec11]

..........

[dec11]

Pick me apart, bros. This is the best I can come up with SO FAR based off availability and what I'm shooting for.

I'm 5'9 175lbs, ~13% bf, 29 years old, training very intensely for the past 18 months after on and off training since high school. In 2003 I took a test e cycle and in 2004 I took a test e/winny cycle. Did everything wrong, hadn't a clue what I was doing, and by 2008 was out of shape again. Now I'm easily back to the best shape I've been in since 2003. I've really turned my entire lifestyle, diet, and training around in the past ~2 years.

Anyway, here's what I've proposed to be my first cycle back in a few years.

Weeks 1-12 Test C 450mg/week
Weeks 1-10 Deca 300mg/week
Weeks 8-13 Winny 50mg/ED
Weeks 1-13 Arimidex .25mg E3D
Weeks 1-18 hcg 250iu twice a week
PCT would start on start of week 14 : Nolva 20/20/20/10 Clomid 100/50/50/50

Anything remotely right with this cycle? Opinions?

run 400mg deca, make sure you run test 2wks beyond
10mg pd winnie is a pointless waste and bad advice
250iu's hcg every 3.5 days is fine.

be careful who you take advice from, the running test 2wks longer than deca is very basic knowledge tht some dont seem to have grasped

[MACHINE5150]

run 400mg deca , make sure you run test 2wks beyond
10mg pd winnie is a pointless waste and bad advice
250iu's hcg every 3.5 days is fine.

be careful who you take advice from, the running test 2wks longer than deca is very basic knowledge tht some dont seem to have grasped

once again great advice from Dec

[THE-DET-OAK]

once again great advice from Dec

not really the best advice IMO. obviously dec has never seen the studies where winny lowers SHBG 40% at just 10mg ED. lowering SHBG on a large amount of test is kind of pointless, but on mild doses it has a great effect.

500ius of HCG a week is barely enough to overide suppression on hrt doses. as a matter of fact a study pointed out it took 700ius a week to offset shut-down on a 600mg test cycle.

Not to mention I have read many posts form Dr. Scally saying 500iu a week of HCG barely even tickles your nuts. 1,000 is much better for cycles with deca . sorry that im gonna have to take the word of the Dr that has helped 1,000's of Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism patients reclaim their nuts....................... he acvtually suggests running 1500iu EOD on a heavy cycle..................but this info is prolly rubbish.

did you guys realise that when a Dr prescribes HCG to try an increase a mans T levels for fertility they prescribe 5,000iu doses at a time.

oh yea maybe thats why the pharmacies make 5,000 iu bottles and send it to you with 1ml of water that should not be stored..................caused its for 1 time use.........................ahhhhhhhhhhhhh rubbish.

[THE-DET-OAK]

not to mention winny is great at lowering prolactin.............yea even at 10mg............but what do i know...........maybe you should grab some caber though...........hahahahaha

[dec11]

not really the best advice IMO. obviously dec has never seen the studies where winny lowers SHBG 40% at just 10mg ED. lowering SHBG on a large amount of test is kind of pointless, but on mild doses it has a great effect.

500ius of HCG a week is barely enough to overide suppression on hrt doses. as a matter of fact a study pointed out it took 700ius a week to offset shut-down on a 600mg test cycle.

Not to mention I have read many posts form Dr. Scally saying 500iu a week of HCG barely even tickles your nuts. 1,000 is much better for cycles with deca . sorry that im gonna have to take the word of the Dr that has helped 1,000's of Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism patients reclaim their nuts....................... he acvtually suggests running 1500iu EOD on a heavy cycle..................but this info is prolly rubbish.

did you guys realise that when a Dr prescribes HCG to try an increase a mans T levels for fertility they prescribe 5,000iu doses at a time.

oh yea maybe thats why the pharmacies make 5,000 iu bottles and send it to you with 1ml of water that should not be stored..................caused its for 1 time use.........................ahhhhhhhhhhhhh rubbish.

not to mention winny is great at lowering prolactin.............yea even at 10mg............but what do i know...........maybe you should grab some caber though...........hahahahaha

rubbish

[miamiguy10]

Thanks a ton guys. I'm going to stick with the 250iu E3D with the hcg . I'm not running 600-700mg of test, I really don't think I'm going to need more hcg than that.

PCT looks ok? Nolva & clomid only even with the deca ? And should I definitely stop the adex with the end of the test or run it straight up to PCT?

[THE-DET-OAK]

my point wasnt about your test dosage, it was about your deca usage, deca shuts you down WAAAAYY harder than test. If you dont believe me just look at the male birth control studies done on caucasian's with nandrolone and test. i dont care though, its your nuts.

not to mention if your not blasting your HCG during the T decline, at 1,000iu's EOD, running HCG during the whole cycle is kind of pointless.....................

[miamiguy10]

So upping the hcg after cycle and before pct starts would be a good suggestion in your opinion?

[THE-DET-OAK]

here bro, trust me when i say listen to this guy, not some guys on a board that think just because a protocol worked something wont work alot better. if anyone knows what they are talking about, it is him.

from Dr Scally

Ask Michael Scally M.D. your questions about anabolic steroids

Q: What’s the logic behind all the different timing and dosing of HCG ?? We hear taking it every day, every other day, every 3rd, 4th, or 5th day.

What about the dosing ? I hear to take it easy to prevent desensitizing the testes. With this you hear anywhere from 100 units to 250 units to play it safe. Others say anywhere from 500 to 2500 units at a time…Isn’t that a bit much ?

What about the length of time? I hear two clinics suggest 10 days; others say 3-5 weeks. Where does all this come from and who’s right?

A: Almost everything you hear or read will be anecdotal and therefore subject to no verification. Experiences with hCG while on TRT are posted. The use of hCG for PCT is only partly related to its use on TRT.

hCG while on TRT is used for two reasons. One reason is cosmetic. While on TRT it is not unusual and more often expected to have testicular atrophy. This is variable from individual to individual. The other reason is to act as a stimulus so the testicles do not shut down and therefore will be easier to initiate independent function after AAS cessation.

Desensitization is a potential problem with hCG. I do not think you will experience it with doses of 500IU or less 3X/week. Studies have used this dose for considerably long periods. In my patients when hCG was used while on AAS the dose was 1000IU every 3 days with one month on hCG followed by one month off hCG.

hCG for PCT involves additional concepts. This is the timing of hCG in relation to other medications for return of HPTA functionality. Under normal conditions the HPTA is a tightly coupled dynamic feedback loop. It is this coupling that has to be achieved after AAS cessation to return to normal. The analogy I use is the starting of a car by pushing it from behind. Alone the care will not start but with pushing the clutch can be popped and the car started.

After AAS cessation the secretion of LH is nil. It will not be able to initiate T production until a certain stimulus LH level is reached. Studies have shown that the time for this to occur can be lengthy. Thus the idea is to ‘push’ the testicles with hCG and get them started. Once T production is initiated the dependent variable is LH. If the hCG is withdrawn without adequate LH to couple with the testicles return of HPTA functionality will fail.

The increased production of LH is achieved by a dual action of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen . Clomiphene is a mixed agonist/antagonist (SERM) at the estradiol receptor. Clomiphene will increase the secretion of LH by action at the hypothalamo-pituitary area. Clomiphene will cause an increase in LH and secondarily increases in T and estradiol. Estradiol has a negative feedback influence on the HPTA. Estradiol is 200X the inhibitory effect of T per molar basis. Normal serum levels are the following:

Testosterone : 3-10 ng/ml (10-35 nM/L)

Estradiol: 15-65 pg/ml (55-240 pmol/L)

Tamoxifen will counteract the effect of the estradiol. Once the hCG is withdrawn the LH, initiated by clomiphene and tamoxifen, will couple with the testicles and take over production of T by the testicles. The levels of LH to maintain and couple with the testicles are maintained by clomiphene and tamoxifen. Clomiphene is continued for 15 days while Tamoxifen is continued for 30 days.

In healthy adult men, circulating levels of testosterone have a distinct pattern, with increasing levels during sleep toward a maximum around the time of awakening and a decrease during the day. In PCT hCG is administered every other day. I suggest the same time each injection in an attempt to simulate this rhythm. This is purely empirical but I recommend hCG at bedtime (2200). Clomiphene is taken in divided doses of 50mg 2X/day.

[THE-DET-OAK]

So upping the hcg after cycle and before pct starts would be a good suggestion in your opinion?

yes. through the 1,000's of patients he has helped, he says this is the most important thing to do. he suggests starting HCG the day after your last T injection, and running anywhere from 1,000-2,000 iu's EOD leading up to 4 days before SERM treatment.

honestly though what guys dont realise is 2 weeks after a test e cycle is too soon to start your SERM.......................but thats a whole nuther discussion..........................

[dec11]

So upping the hcg after cycle and before pct starts would be a good suggestion in your opinion?

mate, 250iu's e3.5ds and run it up until 5 days before pct.

trust me its all you need, ive ran it loads of times. beware the post whoring

[THE-DET-OAK]

mate, 250iu's e3.5ds and run it up until 5 days before pct.

trust me its all you need, ive ran it loads of times. beware the post whoring

ill just leave it at that then, i guess since you have done it before dec you know more than the good Dr., but your protocol is a waste of HCG mine as well just send it to me cause you will get the EXACT same results without it..............................................

[dec11]

ill just leave it at that then, i guess since you have done it before dec you know more than the good Dr., but your protocol is a waste of HCG mine as well just send it to me cause you will get the EXACT same results without it..............................................

good, bye bye

[THE-DET-OAK]

dec this will be my last response to any of your post's, in the short time I have been here you have done nothing but parrot what others say and refuse to have an open mind and think for yourself. I dont really care if you follow me around and call my post's rubbish, it is clear to me, as im sure its clear to others that you dont really know why you give the advice that you do, just that someone told you to do it that and since you think it works the best you should drive that home to the newbies.

Im sorry that it is offensive to you that i believe in science-based research.

IMO if your gonna give advice, youd better have a damn good explaination of why you gave that advice, something you are incable of doing................good day sir.

PS: im not going anywhere

[dec11]

dec this will be my last response to any of your post's, in the short time I have been here you have done nothing but parrot what others say and refuse to have an open mind and think for yourself. I dont really care if you follow me around and call my post's rubbish, it is clear to me, as im sure its clear to others that you dont really know why you give the advice that you do, just that someone told you to do it that and since you think it works the best you should drive that home to the newbies.

Im sorry that it is offensive to you that i believe in science-based research.

IMO if your gonna give advice, youd better have a damn good explaination of why you gave that advice, something you are incable of doing................good day sir.

PS: im not going anywhere

what i have learned is through experience and from very experienced members on this forum, are you now going to rubbish their advice????

your post count in 3 days says it all lol

[dec11]

OP if you need proper HCG advice, check out swiftos thread in the PCT section. you'll find it will check out with what ive advised

[THE-DET-OAK]

kaizen

[THE-DET-OAK]

actually he advises 150-250iu's EOD- Swifto that is.

[dec11]

kaizen

you sound like some 18yr old pissin himself to do his 1st cycle.

[MACHINE5150]

dec this will be my last response to any of your post's, in the short time I have been here you have done nothing but parrot what others say and refuse to have an open mind and think for yourself. I dont really care if you follow me around and call my post's rubbish, it is clear to me, as im sure its clear to others that you dont really know why you give the advice that you do, just that someone told you to do it that and since you think it works the best you should drive that home to the newbies.

Im sorry that it is offensive to you that i believe in science-based research.

IMO if your gonna give advice, youd better have a damn good explaination of why you gave that advice, something you are incable of doing................good day sir.

PS: im not going anywhere

The article you posted didn't site any studies.. it was one doctors opinion.. a doctor that is involved in prescribing/advising AAS to people who do not have a prescription.. so his advice is questionable at best.. the only advice a doctor should be giving about AAS is not to do them. PERIOD You can find doctors in california that prescribe you marijuana when you tell them you have a head ache.. just because they have a Dr. in front of their name doesn't mean they know anything.

Also.. 250iu 2x a week or EOD or WHATEVER is not that far off what that article is saying..

Desensitization is a potential problem with hCG. I do not think you will experience it with doses of 500IU or less 3X/week. Studies have used this dose for considerably long periods. In my patients when hCG was used while on AAS the dose was 1000IU every 3 days with one month on hCG followed by one month off hCG.

500 iu OR LESS 3x a week... focus on the "or less" part.. this also suggests one month on one month off... i disagree with that..

running what Dec suggested SHOULD BE sufficient.. doing a protocol of 1000iu ED or even 5000iu then 3 days later 3500iu then 3 days later 1500 iu right before you start PCT IS EFFECTIVE as well.. i have done both.. and there is no reason you can't do them together.. but it is not completely necessary.. if you have loads of the stuff laying around go for it.. but as mentioned running it at a low dose on cycle is sufficient. if you only have a small amount of it then do it at the end.. you won't OD on the stuff.

[THE-DET-OAK]

machine you are wrong about the Dr Scally. he does not prescribe any steroids . what he does is help guys that have abused that have abused steroids over the years recover their endogenous production. the guy is the leading authority in HPTA restoration, In the world. he has books about it, so dont jump to conclusion's.

I do believe in science based medicine, if you take the time to read the first the first sentence it clearly says any info you will find on HCG for AAS use is anecdotal.

secondly you have to understand that this guys has access to continuous testing, he test's his patients through the entire course of the HPTA restoration process. he has told me clearly many times, not on the open board, that 500ius a week is worthless. even on men not injecting T.

I have more to say but let me ask you a question first, how are you so sure that 500iu's is enough, so sure that your willing to go against the advice of someone who specializes in HPTA restoration??? you do realise that the leydig cells only make up 10% of the testicle so size is a very poor indicator of function.

You guys are wrong about this-im not trying to start a fight, im just challenging you to give some sort of explaination how you can be so sure that it works.

[dec11]

machine you are wrong about the Dr Scally. he does not prescribe any steroids . what he does is help guys that have abused that have abused steroids over the years recover their endogenous production. the guy is the leading authority in HPTA restoration, In the world. he has books about it, so dont jump to conclusion's.

I do believe in science based medicine, if you take the time to read the first the first sentence it clearly says any info you will find on HCG for AAS use is anecdotal.

secondly you have to understand that this guys has access to continuous testing, he test's his patients through the entire course of the HPTA restoration process. he has told me clearly many times, not on the open board, that 500ius a week is worthless.

I have more to say but let me ask you a question first, how are you so sure that 500iu's is enough, so sure that your willing to go against the advice of someone who specializes in HPTA restoration??? you do realise that the leydig cells only make up 10% of the testicle so size is a very poor indicator of function.

then what the hell are you posting it for?
the OP is running a cycle, not looking to regain function after years of steroid misuse.
ive run it during cycle and before pct, worked fine in both
your some drip of a kid playing on mummy's pc

[THE-DET-OAK]

as far as the 1 month on 1 month off that is for TRT. he has to be very careful what he says about AAS usage. also he does not say to use 1500 or less he says he does not think you will get desensitized at those doses. I have spoken within him many times and he does not recommend time on of HCG on cycle

[THE-DET-OAK]

then what the hell are you posting it for?
the OP is running a cycle, not looking to regain function after years of steroid misuse.
ive run it during cycle and before pct, worked fine in both
your some drip of a kid playing on mummy's pc

i posted it cause it has some very valuable info in it, the outline I have given is what is suggested for cycling, now that your actually listening i will go find his posts about cycling.

FYI there is no difference between years of use and being shut-down, and being shutdown from a cycle, shut-down is shut-down.

[THE-DET-OAK]

The hCG use can be during cycle, nearing the end of cycle, or at the conclusion of cycle. Confusing? The most important part is the timing for the hCG administration. For example, TC/TE 500 mg/week for 12 weeks will provide a serum testosterone level upon the last injection somewhere around 7,000 ng/dL. The PCT must consider the TC/TE half-life. From 7,000 ng/dL, it will be about 4 weeks until the HPTA attempts to restart (ideally/theoretically). Thus, the SERMs should not begin until this point, although I do include them earlier to decrease the negative feedback of the hCG and E2.


I prefer 500 IU SC Q3D throughout the AAS administration. I do think that it aids it bringing the testes back online. However, this does not mean to stop hCG after stopping AAS. One must have a sense of the testes response to hCG. Also, from the posts I have read, the HPTA is not in an environment for functioning after AAS administration. The half-lives of the AAS must be taken into consideration.

The first phase of the HPTA protocol examines the functionality of the testicles by the direct action of hCG. hCG raises sex hormone levels directly through the stimulation of testis and secondarily decreases the production and level of the gonadotropin LH. The increase in serum testosterone with the hCG stimulation is useful in determining whether any primary testicular dysfunction is present.

This initial value is a measure of the ability of the testicles to respond to stimulation from the hCG. Demonstration of HPTA functionality is by an adequate response of the testicles to raise the serum level of T well into the normal range. If this is observed the hCG is discontinued. The failure of the testes to respond to an hCG challenge is indicative of primary testicular failure.

In the simplest terms, the first half of the protocol is determine testicular production and reserve by direct stimulation with hCG. If one is unable to obtain adequate (normal) levels successfully to the first half there is little cause or reason to proceed to the second half.

The second phase of the HPTA protocol, clomiphene and tamoxifen , examines the ability of the hypothalamo-pituitary to respond to stimulation by producing LH levels within the normal reference range.

Clomiphene is a mixed agonist/antagonist. This is due o the fact that clomiphene is composed of two isomers: enclomiphene (trans-clomiphene) and zuclomiphene (cis-clomiphene). Enclomiphene is an estradiol receptor antagonist. Zuclomiphene is an estradiol receptor agonist. In all likelihood, the net antagonist effect might be due to the composition being 70% trans (enclomiphene) and 30% cis (zuclomiphene). Tamoxifen is more of a strict antiestrogen, decreases the effect of estrogen in the body, and potentiates the action of clomiphene. This combination came about after 100s of clinical experience.

Tamoxifen and clomiphene citrate compete with estrogen for estrogen receptor binding sites, thus eliminating excess estrogen circulation at the level of the hypothalamus and pituitary allowing gonadotropin production to resume. Administration produces an elevation of LH and secondarily gonadal sex hormones. The administration leads to an appropriate rise in the levels of LH, suggesting that the negative feedback control on the hypothalamus is intact and that the storage and release of gonadotropins by the pituitary is normal. If there was a successful stimulation of testicular T levels by hCG but an inadequate or no response in LH production than the patient has hypogonadotropic, secondary, hypogonadism.

In the simplest terms, the second half of the protocol is to determine hypothalamo-pituitary production and reserve with clomiphene and tamoxifen. The physiological type of hypogonadism, hypogonadotropic or secondary, is characterized by abnormal low or low normal gonadotropin (LH) production in response to clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. In the functional type of hypogonadism, the ability to stimulate is present.

Further, in my experience, an inadequate gonadotropin response is not reason for giving up on HPTA restoration. As I have said, discontinuing on a 12-18 month basis is still advocated. I have had success by this regimen.

[THE-DET-OAK]

here is a comment about the use of 500ius a week on cycle.

"Your PCT was wrong. Your use of hCG during the cycle was homeopathic (of little or no worth). I know these things well."

"I am a proponent of hCG use during TRT or cycling. The question is the dose. I have written often that 250 IU is inadequate. I prefer 500 IU SC Q3D throughout the AAS administration. I do think that it aids it bringing the testes back online. However, this does not mean to stop hCG after stopping AAS. One must have a sense of the testes response to hCG. Also, from the posts I have read, the HPTA is not in an environment for functioning after AAS administration. The half-lives of the AAS must be taken into consideration."

"I have come to answer the questions posed, but if you read my posts, as well as publications, these questions are already answered.

A question that needs to be asked is what is the purpose of hCG administration? Of course, this will depend on the clinical context. First, let me categorically and clearly answer that hCG desensitization does not occur. I know this will probably not be the end of this myth, but I have provided ample documentation for its fallacy.

hCG administration basically occurs under two circumstances. One is during AAS administration, the other being as part of PCT. I disagree with your definition or inference that hCG is not part of PCT. In fact, there is no PCT without hCG!

During AAS administration, the purpose of hCG can be to maintain testes size, testosterone synthesis, and/or spermatogenesis. They are not the same. For simplicity, cycling is to maintain testosterone synthesis. Do you want this to be at a near maximal rate or minimal rate? The answer to this will provide the answer for the hCG dose.

The use of 250 IU is a waste of time and money. I am willing to administer 500 IU Q3D (every three days), although, 1000 IU Q3D is probably more worthwhile. Remember, the idea is to STIMULATE MAXIMALLY T synthesis, not tickle it!!! During PCT, I use hCG 2,000-2,500 IU QOD. hGH has been shown to stimulate T synthesis.

Regarding the day of administration; I do not mean to embarrass you, but this question is an insult and dumb. Why would you think that administering hCG in any special relation to the TE is needed. This is not TRT. T T level will be through the roof. Keep it simple: inject hCG on days divisible by 3 (or 4), whichever you choose.

If you do TE 500 mg/week, the T level at week 12 will be over 6,000 ng/dL. At a half-life of 10-14 days, it will take at least a month or more before the HPTA even attempts to function! This will answer the question about PCT timing. There is no substitute for laboratory confirmation."

[THE-DET-OAK]

if you guys can argue with any of that, then hey i need to read your book.

I know guys are going to get confused about his comment "there is no PCT without HCG " so i will clear that up now.

PCT to him means anything after a cycle, he does not recommend running HCG with a SERM. unless you are looking to avoid the negative feedback loop of E2. at this time it is not to stimulate TT.

this man is a Dr. specializes in the field, and has worked with thousands of patients, but iguess since you have done it before and it worked for you...........well............its rubbish

[THE-DET-OAK]

. a doctor that is involved in prescribing/advising AAS to people who do not have a prescription.. so his advice is questionable at best.. the only advice a doctor should be giving about AAS is not to do them. PERIOD

I also find it amusing that your willing to condemn a man for giving advice about androgen therapy just because he is a DR, even though you do so freely on a daily basis. if thats not hypocritical i dont know what is. its not like he is telling peopl to do steroids , or how, he is telling them how to fix theirselves when they come off. any ethical dr should do this, cause people are gonna do what their gonna do, not helping is not the right thing to do IMO.

I have some ol timer friends that say it wasnt too long ago, in the 80-90s that some dr's would actually write you a script for a 1/2 a cycle. you come back to do your bloodwork and if everything checked out he would write the other half. I was told Bush is the one that mades it so bad that those doc's are afraid to touch it anymore.

here is a post from him on the subject:

"Back in the day - pre-AAS Control Act circa 91' it use to be easy. I use to walk into my primary care physican with a cycle written out on paper. He would review it with me, script me for half of what I wanted and tell me to come in for blood work after the first 6 weeks and if it was A-Okay he would script me for the rest.

After 91', things got a little tougher, some doctors got edgy about the whole switch to Schedule III Controlled substances. For the most part, you could still find Drs willing to work with you through the 90's.

Things started to change in 98' with the scrutiny of Mark McGuire and Sammy Sosa and the home run race. After that, congress started poking their respective noses into sports. That's when most Drs got really scared to script for AAS.

Once a couple of isolated incidents hit the front page of news and the revised act of 2004 passed under Bush 2 - things got really tight

Today, there are still some good Drs who will work with you but their hands are tied to the point where it is only for HRT dosages."

[miamiguy10]

Wow there's a ton of info in this thread. I really appreciate all the information, fellas. I think from the dialogue that all of you agree that hcg should be taken throughout the cycle, although the-det-oak seems to think it should be over 500iu eod or e3d, while the other opinion is that it should be around 250iu e3d.

I'll continue to do my research and try to determine what's best for me.

However, do both of you agree that hcg should be increased from whatever dosage i'm taking through cycle, once the cycle ends and before pct? Can we all agree that regardless of what amount I take throughout cycle, that I should be taking at least double that dosage once cycle ends and end it a few days before I start the nolva/clomid?

[THE-DET-OAK]

i say yes............but i doubt others will agree, this info is new to them, new info scares people. the reason i believe in continous improvement of process's (kaizen) is because without it, we will be stuck in the stone age. it wasnt long ago when guys were afraid of AI's.............................

[Tlee8769]

OP if you need proper HCG advice, check out swiftos thread in the PCT section. you'll find it will check out with what ive advised

Thats what i have done from the advice you steered me towards and it was the best advice i cold have received im running 250iu 2x a week and it is working great follow the advice here OP its correct and anymore questions go to http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...-A-with-Swifto.... He has a amazing PCT protocol that myself and several people i know are following. A friend of mine followed it and just got BW done and everything is where it should be beware of imitators follow the Vets on this sight they have hands on experience which is hands on scientific study .

[FireGuy]

Llewellyn advises 2500iu EOD for 16 days, I use 3000iu per week in my PCT for 5 weeks.

[THE-DET-OAK]

fireguy-I know Llewellyn-do you run HCG during your SERM??? if so just wondering what your reasoning is???

[FireGuy]

I think the one size fits all PCT protocols are not a good thing. I don't want to get in a pissing match with everyone over what they think is best or start posting studies when there is always another one finding 180 degree different results. I will say in my opinion, HCG , Clen , GH and Proviron are extremely underutilized when it comes to PCT .