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  1. #1
    MuttonChop's Avatar
    MuttonChop is offline Associate Member
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    Test only first cycle could be a waste

    I find that a lot of folks here on the steroid .com forums just go along with what the majority say and don't question anything. In that vein, I was hoping that what I am about to say is taken with an open mind.

    Known fact: Even 1 mg above normal hormonal levels supresses normal test production.

    Know fact: Controlling estrogen has not been shown to reduce or help suppression.

    Known fact: Time on steroids has a better correlation with recovery time than amounts used, that is, a week of use in either direction has a bigger effect than 100mg up or down in terms of good recovery.

    Known fact: Using an AI or SERM during a cycle is an effective way of controlling Estro sides.

    This brings me to my point: I think that if someone is planning a first cycle, they might as well aim for the most gains possible. My choice would be something from Class 1 and Class 2: an AR and a non-AR mediated steroid.

    My personal first cycle recommendation would be a test long ester at 500 mg/week for 8 weeks with D-Bol at 50mg/ED for first 3 weeks, with an AI during cycle. Due to 2 aromatising agents, I would recommend the HCG during the start of PCT. Note the 8 weeks in duration. I believe that the time reduction would produce excellent recovery.

    So, yea...what do you guys think?
    Last edited by MuttonChop; 05-09-2011 at 08:43 AM.

  2. #2
    Bigd89's Avatar
    Bigd89 is offline Senior Member
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    Im doing 10wks test e at 400mgs and 30mgs of dbol . Fvck the 8 weeks, maybe if you were doing Ronnie's reload and deload.

  3. #3
    THE-DET-OAK is offline Banned
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    The only problem I see with dbol on a first cycle is alot of guys dont gain after they come off it. I have heard newbies say, is my test bunk??? simply cause the do not put on more weight after the dbol, not realizing they are solidifying those gains.

    If a newbie is well educated on what he is about to do, well prepared and has everything needed all the way through PCT and has ancillaries for side effects i say why not dbol, since sides will be treated the same way. conversly it may even be a better idea for them to run dbol at the end, when gains slow. and make use of that time waiting for the ester to clear. besides dbol works WAY better when T levels are through the roof. since it is more of an anabolic , and T fills in those androgenic gaps.

    is it necessary? no, the only thing it really does is make more use of your time, for instance if you start dbol at the begining say on a 12 week cycle, the cycle will "feel longer". id ont know if you would actually gain more at the end of the day.

    some guys are not prepared enough to do this though.

    oddly enough i have heard people, that are very educated on the subject with a medical license, say that a TRT dose of T with up to 600mg deca is actually a cycle that may produce less side effects that T only, while i disagree, he makes some good points. i dont think you would gain as much on that cycle either, but i could be wrong.
    Last edited by THE-DET-OAK; 05-09-2011 at 10:13 AM.

  4. #4
    lemonada9 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuttonChop View Post
    I find that a lot of folks here on the steroid .com forums just go along with what the majority say and don't question anything. In that vein, I was hoping that what I am about to say is taken with an open mind.

    Known fact: Even 1 mg above normal hormonal levels supresses normal test production. Depends, this can be a very grey area. Continued supranormal test levels will supress normal test production. so basically anything with a ester. Test susp, will just create a spike and your body will rebalance itself. So, its not the amount of mg that creates the major suppression, but the duration of supplemented test will suppress normal test

    Know fact: Controlling estrogen has not been shown to reduce or help suppression. No, but controlling estrogen helps reduce sides in those who take alot of test and their own body's enzymes. Controlling estrogen is effective in the rebalancing of the HPTA

    Known fact: Time on steroids has a better correlation with recovery time than amounts used, that is, a week of use in either direction has a bigger effect than 100mg up or down in terms of good recovery. I dont agree 100% with this. If you use 1g of test a week, you will have a much harder recovery than someone who dose 500mg week. Please show some proof of this statement with a study due to its a 'known' fact

    Known fact: Using an AI or SERM during a cycle is an effective way of controlling Estro sides.

    This brings me to my point: I think that if someone is planning a first cycle, they might as well aim for the most gains possible. My choice would be something from Class 1 and Class 2: an AR and a non-AR mediated steroid.

    My personal first cycle recommendation would be a test long ester at 500 mg/week for 8 weeks with D-Bol at 50mg/ED for first 3 weeks, with an AI during cycle. Due to 2 aromatising agents, I would recommend the HCG during the start of PCT. Note the 8 weeks in duration. I believe that the time reduction would produce excellent recovery.

    So, yea...what do you guys think?
    I think rather than lookin at it as AR and non AR, you should look at the 3 types of natural hormones in the body. Test, DHT, 19nor. These are what hsould be looked at for stacking a cycle.

    Test e for a first cycle is bad IMO. Takes no sacrifice to only inject 1-2x week. Also due to the delayed "kick in", and the additional bloating vs Prop that I dont like it. Also 8 weeks of Test e isnt long enough IMO. You need at least a 10-12 week cycle with test e. 8 weeks is good for Prop.
    I would say Test P for a first cycle due to ED shots, and faster kick in time. Also with a clean diet, less water retention than test e, c.

    and that should be it for a first cycle. Due to Test being the base of every good planned cycle, the first one should be test only. One doesnt know how their body will react when exogenous, massive amounts of test enter the system. could have high 5alpha reductase, or DHT convertase etc which is basdically side effects.

    After a first cycle, learning how test only affects their body and if they are prone to anything, then maybe think to stack.

    For stacking, Pretty Simple. Use 1 test, 1 DHT, 1 19nor would be pretty advanced and the max for most people.

    I would start with Test for the first cycle, then for a 2nd add either a DHT or a 19-nor. (not tren due to its other effects)

    As for HCG, HCG should be ran during every cycle up untill the first week of PCT. then 1000iu on the first day and thats it. If needed then 250-500iu the 2nd week, but thats final.

    Thats my quick gathering lol, i know its really scatterbrained :P

  5. #5
    MuttonChop's Avatar
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    I am at work ATM so I will just comment on 1 thing right now. 1g a week is worse than 500mg for sure, but I am comparing dosage vs time on their effects on recovery. Which would be worse?

    400mg for 12 weeks as suggested by steroid .com or
    500mg for 8 weeks, or even 10 weeks

    ?

  6. #6
    THE-DET-OAK is offline Banned
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    either way I personally would go for 12 weeks, the dosage is up to you.

  7. #7
    lemonada9 is offline Junior Member
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    Well if u keep the dosage the close to same, then of course the shorter cycle would have a better recovery but i dont think it 1 week either way would make much of a difference. I would go the 12 weeks.
    also, the closer to normal levels of test the better recovery also.

    400mgvs 500mg a week isnt much of a difference..... ok after re-reading what u said, i agree.
    However, i think a 100mg difference is kinda taken as not a big change, esp with a long ester in a supranormal lvls of test.

  8. #8
    warren916's Avatar
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    The FULL affects of long ester test dont really kick til about week 5-6, whats the point of an 8 week cycle?

    Your only getting about 2 weeks of "on" time really.

    Run HCG thru, and have a clo/torem or nolva pct, and you should be fine bro.

  9. #9
    gymfu's Avatar
    gymfu is offline Knowledgeable Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuttonChop View Post
    I am at work ATM so I will just comment on 1 thing right now. 1g a week is worse than 500mg for sure, but I am comparing dosage vs time on their effects on recovery. Which would be worse?

    400mg for 12 weeks as suggested by steroid .com or
    500mg for 8 weeks, or even 10 weeks

    ?

    Unfortunatly, for some people, such as myself it takes as much as 6 weeks for the test to be in full effect. My first cycles was a little over 8 weeks and my gains were very small, when I got off I lost everything, so the weight gain I had was just water retension, I don't thing I gained any real new muscle tissue.

    You are right about time being worse than doseage as far as recovery goes, but what good is a cycle if your not on long enough to make any real gains. And high doses have other side efects, ie heart, prostate, cholestrol.

    I still think a test only cycle for 12 weeks is the best protocal. If you cycle with too may compounds and have sides you would have no idea which one is the problem.

  10. #10
    Booz's Avatar
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    my way of thinking is test for your 1st,
    see what you gain and what type of gains that you get from the cycle,
    then following cycles add other compounds and you will find out what actually does what for you.....................
    if you just jump in both feet 1st and lump in test deca and dbol how the hell are you going to know exactly whats doing what for you?
    works the same for any side effects you may or may not experience..............just my 2 cents..........
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  11. #11
    MACHINE5150's Avatar
    MACHINE5150 is offline "AR's Vanilla Gorilla"
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    I think test and deca at 500mg test and 400mg deca is a great beginner cycle.. i understand why the guys on here think that test only should be the only first cycle.. but i disagree with it.. the whole argument that Deca is a harsh compound is based on the fact that you need a more aggressive PCT to rebound and the whole deca dick thing.. but deca dick can be solved with running the right amount of test.. and i think an AGRESSIVE PCT should always be ran anyways..

    I would probably say test and NPP as a starting cycle would be better than test and deca.. since the NPP is out of your system faster..

    I do not recommend to someone who wants to do a test only cycle that they should add deca.. but if they already plan on it than i won't advise against it either.. i know about 40 people who did test and deca their first cycle and not one of them ever had any problems.. And science has proven that they are a WONDERFUL combination due to the androgenic properties of the Test and the Anabolic properties of Deca.

  12. #12
    MACHINE5150's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Booz View Post
    my way of thinking is test for your 1st,
    see what you gain and what type of gains that you get from the cycle,
    then following cycles add other compounds and you will find out what actually does what for you.....................
    if you just jump in both feet 1st and lump in test deca and dbol how the hell are you going to know exactly whats doing what for you?
    works the same for any side effects you may or may not experience..............just my 2 cents..........
    I suppose my theory is more based upon the idea that you are running some sort of AI anyways.. and that you are doing reasonable doses.. and have a good PCT planned

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by MACHINE5150 View Post
    I think test and deca at 500mg test and 400mg deca is a great beginner cycle.. i understand why the guys on here think that test only should be the only first cycle.. but i disagree with it.. the whole argument that Deca is a harsh compound is based on the fact that you need a more aggressive PCT to rebound and the whole deca dick thing.. but deca dick can be solved with running the right amount of test.. and i think an AGRESSIVE PCT should always be ran anyways..

    I would probably say test and NPP as a starting cycle would be better than test and deca.. since the NPP is out of your system faster..

    I do not recommend to someone who wants to do a test only cycle that they should add deca.. but if they already plan on it than i won't advise against it either.. i know about 40 people who did test and deca their first cycle and not one of them ever had any problems.. And science has proven that they are a WONDERFUL combination due to the androgenic properties of the Test and the Anabolic properties of Deca.
    Can't argue with the symmetry of test and deca, I love it together. I still recomend test only for the first.

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