does armidex hindering gains

[Casket]

Hey guys

To what degree will armidexx hinder gains at a dosage of .50mg eod. The planned cycle with this dosage will be sust 250 eod and npp 150 eod for 16 weeks. If diet and training is all in order, is it possible to guess or say how much Or percentage wise will hindered.

Thanx

[buffgator]

Are you bulking? I never take an ai when bulking because of not wanting to hinder gains......as far as your question on what will. 5 eod do i really have no clue

[Casket]

Bulking yes. Gyno prone so not looking to aggrovate any existing gyno. Sso just looking at a rough fiqure of percentage. 10%, 20%, 30%.....?

[gixxerboy1]

no body can say. You do need estrogen to grow. I honestly doubt you would notice the difference but your since your prone to gyno. I'd rather take the chance of hindering gains then have tits

[PK-V]

yes in terms of estrogen support for the body
joints, cellular leverage, health

not to say you wont gain much when taking adex

[kleaver]

.50eod isn't all that much
it'll keep water retention low, which hinders gains a little bit, but not all that much.
I just put up like 15-20ish lbs on .50adex eod. hoping to keep 10-12 of that

say no-no-to-gyno just my 2 cents

[bjpennnn]

if your taking a normal dose and nothing over the top i do not think it hinders gains. I think there is a huge misconception about this. I have never read one competing body builder say ais hinder gains. Will you retain less water yes, so you may not gain as much water weight but as gixxer said i would rather gain less water weight then have tits.

[slimshady01]

Ronnie R swears on not taking an AI unless absolutley necessary on cycle.

This cycle im not taking it but in my head I feel like i need to even though i have no symptoms of gyno lol.

Can to much estrogen inhibit gains?

[Justhav2p]

Ronnie R swears on not taking an AI unless absolutley necessary on cycle.

This cycle im not taking it but in my head I feel like i need to even though i have no symptoms of gyno lol.

Can to much estrogen inhibit gains?

But that is Ronnie we are talking about. If my day job was lifting and eating, I would treat this issue differently.

You will gain less bloat. aka water weight, better safe then sorry.

[slimshady01]

Aromasin lowers shbg and frees up test so I would think it helps gains.

[buffgator]

I have ran Test 500mg deca 400mg and d-bol 50mg once a year for about ten years straight now. Twice i took it with arim and i swore never again. My gains seemed terrible compared to without it.

[slimshady01]

Thanks buff,

I can say one thing, im running that same cycle 500 test 400 deca atm and my sex drive is like a 18 yr old in a brothel and im not taking and AI. Last cycle i took aromasin and my sex drive felt un changed minus 5 or less times I had a sudden urge to get it.

[FCVtec]

I am currently on week 9 cycle of Test and Tren and I am also gyno prone so I take just enough to keep the gyno away (arimidex .25 eod) and been getting great results and have gained over 20lb, I am actually happier with the a-dex then others i've tried before. Does not hinder my gains.

[gymfu]

Did I read it right? You plan on running 250mg ever other day? So that's over a gram.

[kleaver]

yea, adex is pretty mild. letro is the worst

[PK-V]

Aromasin lowers shbg and frees up test so I would think it helps gains.

But it rapes your lipid values, the last thing I would want to do is throw more petrol into the fire unless it's needed

So then just just use a SERM instead to protect CV health as it has selective estrogen agonist and antagonist effect?

Not as easy as that SERMS lower IGF-1 levels in the body
study done on mice show a decrease of 60% in IGF-1 levels

to what extent in humans? unknown at this time

no easy answer

imo unless your gyno prone on cycle and or are cutting then do use an AI

[slimshady01]

I thought studies show aroma was easy on lipids.

[slimshady01]

I've seen a lot of questions on Aromasin lately. This study on men should clearify the issues.

Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males

Nelly Mauras, John Lima, Deval Patel, Annie Rini, Enrico di Salle, Ambrose Kwok and Barbara Lippe

Nemours Children’s Clinic and Research Programs (N.M., J.L., A.R.), Jacksonville, Florida 32207; and University of Florida Health Sciences Center (D.P.) and Amersham Pharmacia Biotech (E.d.S., A.K., B.L.), Peapack, New Jersey 07977


Suppression of estrogen, via estrogen receptor or aromatase blockade, is being investigated in the treatment of different conditions. Exemestane (Aromasin) is a potent and selective irreversible aromatase inhibitor. To characterize its suppression of estrogen and its pharmacokinetic (PK) properties in males, healthy eugonadal subjects (14–26 yr of age) were recruited. In a cross-over study, 12 were randomly assigned to 25 and 50 mg exemestane daily, orally, for 10 d with a 14-d washout period. Blood was withdrawn before and 24 h after the last dose of each treatment period. A PK study was performed (n = 10) using a 25-mg dose. Exemestane suppressed plasma estradiol comparably with either dose [25 mg, 38% (P 0.002); 50 mg, 32% (P 0.008)], with a reciprocal increase in testosterone concentrations (60% and 56%; P 0.003 for both). Plasma lipids and IGF-I concentrations were unaffected by treatment. The PK properties of the 25-mg dose showed the highest exemestane concentrations 1 h after administration, indicating rapid absorption. The terminal half-life was 8.9 h. Maximal estradiol suppression of 62 ± 14% was observed at 12 h. The drug was well tolerated. In conclusion, exemestane is a potent aromatase inhibitor in men and an alternative to the choice of available inhibitors. Long-term efficacy and safety will need further study.


Abbreviations: AUC, Area under the curve; CBC, cell blood count; HDL, high density lipoprotein; LDL, low density lipoprotein; PK, pharmacokinetic.

[Cyclehard]

I've been retaining a bit a water on 300mgs of sus. Just recently, my nips have been getting tender. Think i should use an ai?

[letsgetripped]

everyone reacts differently to it but i would suggest an Anti estrogen blocked with it or bump up ur levels to counter act the estrogen levels

[PK-V]

I've seen a lot of questions on Aromasin lately. This study on men should clearify the issues.

Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males

Nelly Mauras, John Lima, Deval Patel, Annie Rini, Enrico di Salle, Ambrose Kwok and Barbara Lippe

Nemours Children’s Clinic and Research Programs (N.M., J.L., A.R.), Jacksonville, Florida 32207; and University of Florida Health Sciences Center (D.P.) and Amersham Pharmacia Biotech (E.d.S., A.K., B.L.), Peapack, New Jersey 07977


Suppression of estrogen, via estrogen receptor or aromatase blockade, is being investigated in the treatment of different conditions. Exemestane (Aromasin) is a potent and selective irreversible aromatase inhibitor. To characterize its suppression of estrogen and its pharmacokinetic (PK) properties in males, healthy eugonadal subjects (14–26 yr of age) were recruited. In a cross-over study, 12 were randomly assigned to 25 and 50 mg exemestane daily, orally, for 10 d with a 14-d washout period. Blood was withdrawn before and 24 h after the last dose of each treatment period. A PK study was performed (n = 10) using a 25-mg dose. Exemestane suppressed plasma estradiol comparably with either dose [25 mg, 38% (P 0.002); 50 mg, 32% (P 0.008)], with a reciprocal increase in testosterone concentrations (60% and 56%; P 0.003 for both). Plasma lipids and IGF-I concentrations were unaffected by treatment. The PK properties of the 25-mg dose showed the highest exemestane concentrations 1 h after administration, indicating rapid absorption. The terminal half-life was 8.9 h. Maximal estradiol suppression of 62 ± 14% was observed at 12 h. The drug was well tolerated. In conclusion, exemestane is a potent aromatase inhibitor in men and an alternative to the choice of available inhibitors. Long-term efficacy and safety will need further study.


Abbreviations: AUC, Area under the curve; CBC, cell blood count; HDL, high density lipoprotein; LDL, low density lipoprotein; PK, pharmacokinetic.

Your right about the lipids, I should have said it compromises HDL cholesterol not lipid values


Exemestane modestly enhanced bone loss from the femoral neck without significant

influence on lumbar bone loss. Except for a 6% to 9% drop in plasma high-density lipoprotein

cholesterol, no major effects on serum lipids, coagulation factors, or homocysteine were

recorded. Bone mineral density should be assessed according to the US Preventive Services

Task Force guidelines.



J Clin Oncol 23:5126-5137. © 2005 by American Society of Clinical Oncology

[Swifto]

But it rapes your lipid values, the last thing I would want to do is throw more petrol into the fire unless it's needed

So then just just use a SERM instead to protect CV health as it has selective estrogen agonist and antagonist effect?

Not as easy as that SERMS lower IGF-1 levels in the body
study done on mice show a decrease of 60% in IGF-1 levels

to what extent in humans? unknown at this time

no easy answer

imo unless your gyno prone on cycle and or are cutting then do use an AI

Around 30%.

[songdog]

The man speaks if anyone would know its Swifto.

[Casket]

Cool, thanx for the replies.

Im not really worried about hindering water weight gains as i don't really classify those as gains. More worried about the lbm gains, but if it's in the range of 20 to 30% of the gains then im happy.

Maybe i'll start at .25mg eod and bump if neccesarry.

I don't get itchy or sore nips. they just get all puffy and fatty tissue build up around the nipple. Not cool

[Swifto]

Let me also state that these studies are done on mostly healthy individuals.

Exogenous testosterone increases serum IGF and GH in healthy males given exogenous testosterone, so do we really give a shit about AI's and SERMs lowering IGF? As I dont.

I'd rather use a low dose of an AI (Aromasin 10mg/ED or EOD), keep estrogen in normal or just below baseline levels (as estrogen is correlated with IGF/GH synthesis) and not worry about gyno and acne...

[RoidReaper]

Youll stay LEaner

[Swifto]

Around 30%.

Here's one study showing Letro at 2.5mg/ED lowering IGF-1 by 15% after 28 days.

Thats not a lot.

[Swifto]

Tamoxifen lowering IGF-1 (not healthy subjects).




J Endocrinol Invest. 1997 Sep;20(8):445-51.

Effects of tamoxifen on GH and IGF-I levels in acromegaly.

Cozzi R, Attanasio R, Oppizzi G, Orlandi P, Giustina A, Lodrini S, Da Re N, Dallabonzana D.

Divisione di Endocrinologia, Ospedale Niguarda, Italy.

Abstract
Tamoxifen (TAM), a non steroid partially competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptors, has been reported to decrease plasma GH and IGF-I levels both in vitro and in vivo. These data prompted us to evaluate GH and IGF-I changes in acromegaly after acute and chronic TAM administration. Nineteen acromegalic patients (6 M, 13 F, aged 30-70 years) were studied in a prospective open study. Acute TAM test (20 mg po) did not induce any significant change in GH and IGF-I levels. Chronic TAM treatment (20 mg/day for a month and 40 mg/day for another month) induced a transient increase in GH levels (from 9 [3-139] micrograms/l [median, range] to 12 [3-188] micrograms/l, p = 0.0025) and a 0034)persistent decrease in IGF-I levels (from 785 [500-1200] micrograms/l to 553 [209-1420] micrograms/l, p = 0.. Individual IGF-I values decreased in 13 patients and reached the normal range in 4 of them. At TAM withdrawal hormonal levels increased up to pretreatment values. There was no correlation between GH and IGF-I changes and results were not influenced by age, sex or gonadal status. In this setting it is likely that the observed decrease in plasma IGF-I levels is dependent on TAM activity at the hepatic level.

PMID: 9364247 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[baseline_9]

I think the positives and peace of mind far out weigh any negatives that may occur from using an AI while on cycle....

Think of it as insurance that covers gyno, acne, bloat etc.... And this insurance is cheap LOL

It is safe practice IMHO and I think that everyone should look to prevent ERSE's before they occur buy investing in an AI, be it Arimidex or Aromasin ...


0.5 mg of Adex EOD was reccommend to me by Swifto and I ave had no ERSE's so far.

[Cravenmorehead]

Let me also state that these studies are done on mostly healthy individuals.

Exogenous testosterone increases serum IGF and GH in healthy males given exogenous testosterone, so do we really give a shit about AI's and SERMs lowering IGF? As I dont.

I'd rather use a low dose of an AI (Aromasin 10mg/ED or EOD), keep estrogen in normal or just below baseline levels (as estrogen is correlated with IGF/GH synthesis) and not worry about gyno and acne...

54 yo 10% BF 6' 190
currently on 600 test cyp/week Aromasin 14mg daily
Staying very dry and happy with the strength gains and bf% drop.
Started with tamoxifen 20mg dailyand still bloated some so I switched.
To me, water retention is not "gains"......maybe blood pressure and shoe size....but not muscule and vascularity

Could I drop the aromasin dosage slightly?

[baseline_9]

54 yo 10% BF 6' 190
currently on 600 test cyp/week Aromasin 14mg daily
Staying very dry and happy with the strength gains and bf% drop.
Started with tamoxifen 20mg dailyand still bloated some so I switched.
To me, water retention is not "gains"......maybe blood pressure and shoe size....but not muscule and vascularity

Could I drop the aromasin dosage slightly?

Nolva will not prevent bloat, it will bind to E receptors which in turn will prevent E form binding there and causing Gyno but it will not reduce E per se....

As for the Aromasin Q, I am sure that Swifto will say unless your very gyno prone then drop the dose to maybe EOD... But always interested in his answers so I will stay tuned

[Swifto]

54 yo 10% BF 6' 190
currently on 600 test cyp/week Aromasin 14mg daily
Staying very dry and happy with the strength gains and bf% drop.
Started with tamoxifen 20mg dailyand still bloated some so I switched.
To me, water retention is not "gains"......maybe blood pressure and shoe size....but not muscule and vascularity

Could I drop the aromasin dosage slightly?

Where did you get your Aromasin?

An AI will reduce water retention more so than a SERM will in my experience.

[Pac Man]

I agree with the "better safe than sorry" crew. I run ADex on cycle usually starting around week 4. I adjust dose based on how I feel. I guess I'll just have to run IGF1 on cycle to help combat the loss of IGF1 from my adex

[Cravenmorehead]

Where did you get your Aromasin ?

An AI will reduce water retention more so than a SERM will in my experience.

From a research chem place. Don't know if i'm supposed to post names.....but I would appreciate your input on a good research chem supplier.
Thanks

[Casket]

Ok. Another q, will the decrease in estrogen also drop the sex drive even when doing 750mg a week of test.

[RoidReaper]

Ok. Another q, will the decrease in estrogen also drop the sex drive even when doing 750mg a week of test.

Not if the levels are properly balanced. Too high E2 and Too low can/will result in a low drive.

[Cravenmorehead]

Where did you get your Aromasin ?

An AI will reduce water retention more so than a SERM will in my experience.

Aromasin (exesmestane) came from Choicechems.......tastes decent.