Torem instead of Nolva for PCT?

[sxxen]

Hi there, Can I get Torem instead of Nolva for PCT? AR-R is out of stock on Nolva, so I wanted to see if I can sub Torem in for it instead.

Thanks

[Boltfan909]

Torem is good stuff. What are you running and for how long?

[sxxen]

I'll be running 500mg of Test E and 30mg of Dianabol .

Having a hard time finding Nolva, so I was thinking of subbing it out for Torem. Dosage recommendation on the lower side? Thanks

[Lemonada8]

120/120/60/60

Tore is 2nd generation nolva

[cro]

arr, tomax is reliable

[sxxen]

thanks guys

[Boltfan909]

120/120/60/60

Tore is 2nd generation nolva

Depending on the duration of the cycle this may be high.. I may go with something like 120/90/60/60/30 to avoid any possible sides. Only thing Torem seemed to give me is some anxiety (which I am prone to) and BP 'felt' high, never checked it but had some neck stiffness and headaches on and off.. Kind of all typical PCT shit thought..

[Flier]

120/120/60/60

Tore is 2nd generation nolva

Are u saying Tore/Tamox stack is redundant?

Cause I´m dong Tore 120/120/60/60/60/60
Tamox 20x6 weeks

[5x10]

Are u saying Tore/Tamox stack is redundant?

this, i always thought torem was used in place of clomid

[Walnutz]

From what I read it seems toremifene is a great replacement for tamoxifene.

[Boltfan909]

I can tell you that 2 weeks into PCT my boys were straight up Boulders, which is more of a Clomid effect than Nolva. My libido was shit, which is probably inevitable during PCT (for me at least)..

[Flier]

From what I read it seems toremifene is a great replacement for tamoxifene.

x2
...and the stack even better, as Tore tends to raise SHBG and Tamox lowers it.

[sxxen]

x2
...and the stack even better, as Tore tends to raise SHBG and Tamox lowers it.

Tamox is Nolva

[Flier]

Tamox is Nolva

Yes it is

[Lemonada8]

Are u saying Tore/Tamox stack is redundant?

Cause I´m dong Tore 120/120/60/60/60/60
Tamox 20x6 weeks

yes, i would rather do a low dose of clomid for the first 2 weeks cuz it helps raise natty LH which raises test more which is what ur wanting. then continue after the 2 weeks with tore/tamox/nolva so the raise in natty test doesnt go over ur natural T/E ratio. The t/t/n would help block the estro from binding without pushing out more LH.

also clomid lowers the responsiveness to LH, which is counter productive. the menopausal sides of clomid usually mean ur taking to much. menopause is when women dont have enough estro in their body... same effects with men.

but others have good results when doubling up the tore and tamox. and provided that HCG was during the cycle, i usually do a nolva only pct.

[Flier]

yes, i would rather do a low dose of clomid for the first 2 weeks cuz it helps raise natty LH which raises test more which is what ur wanting. then continue after the 2 weeks with tore/tamox/nolva so the raise in natty test doesnt go over ur natural T/E ratio. The t/t/n would help block the estro from binding without pushing out more LH.

also clomid lowers the responsiveness to LH, which is counter productive. the menopausal sides of clomid usually mean ur taking to much. menopause is when women dont have enough estro in their body... same effects with men.

but others have good results when doubling up the tore and tamox. and provided that HCG was during the cycle, i usually do a nolva only pct.

I thought Tore did the same.

Anyway too late for me as I´m 1 week into my PCT already, but I will check into your suggestion so I know in case there is a next time.

[Lemonada8]

tore doesnt do anyting to LH levels. clomid does.

tore is 2nd generation nolva, u cant change the action of the drug between generations, only sides and efficacy

[Flier]

This article states different.
If what you are saying is true, I should have no Test production in my body right now, and my LH and FSH values should show 0.
I will do BW next week (2 weeks into my PCT), and let u know what the values are.....I´m curious myself now, and a little confused.


Fareston
(Toremifene Citrate)

Fareston is a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM), not unlike its more popular cousins Nolvadex and Clomid. Just as we see with Nolvadex, Fareston is used to treat breast cancer in post-menopausal women. It does this by exerting estrogen antagonistic effects in certain tissue, most notably, breast tissue. This is actually the same mechanism of action found in Nolvadex. This is why Nolvadex is often recommended to bodybuilders who are trying to avoid gynocomastia (growth of breast tissue in males). SERMs, in addition, have several other well known effects in men, which are not simply limited to preventing the abnormal growth of breast tissue.

At the hypothalamus and pituitary, estrogen acts in cooperation with the male body’s negative feedback loop to send a signal to decrease the secretion of LH, and when LH secretion is lowered, so are natural testosterone levels . SERMs, like Fareston, possibly act as an estrogen antagonist in the hypothalamus and pituitary, in order to increase testosterone production. Thus, although it hasn’t been studied to any great degree, it’s highly likely that Fareston is capable of increasing testosterone in the same way that Nolvadex it, as it’s androgenicity:estrogenicity ratio is 5x that of Nolvadex (1). It may also be better than Nolvadex for reasons that are of particular interest to steroid using athletes and bodybuilders.

Although anecdotal evidence on this compound is rare, bodybuilders who have already experimented with this stuff seem satisfied. In my estimation, it would seem to be a more potent and safer alternative to Nolvadex, for those who are worried about side effects. I’m also predicting that it may provide a greater increase in LH and therefore testosterone levels, in men when compared to Nolvadex (when an appropriate dose of each is utilized). This makes its use a strong possibility for PCT in the future, when studies on its ability to elevate testosterone is more fully studied and understood.

Fareston would also make a welcome addition to a cycle where Cholesterol issues may be a concern, or where something slightly stronger than Nolvadex may be required to prevent gyno.

[Lemonada8]

it doesnt raise it as high as clomid does.

and no that doesnt mean that ur values are 0. I recovered fine from a nolva only pct, i used hcg during cycle also.

u will recover naturally most likely, just takes a while to rebalance normally. the serms help balance it quicker by blocking the E from binding so not as much converts providing the boost in test.

clomid acts like a antagonist to the pit which makes it push out more LH than normal. thats why u can have a rebound from clomid only pct cuz it puts out to much LH.

also, tore increases the senstitivity of ur body to LH same does tamox. clomid lowers the sensitivity to LH

[lifterjaydawg]

very good read, Torem seems like it has very good results for pct, usually stick with the clomid and nolva, but may have to give torem a try very soon.

[RoidReaper]

this, i always thought torem was used in place of clomid

Both Torem and Tamox increase GnRH sensitivity... Clomid Decreases. Or has been shown to.

[xeroxy]

tore doesnt do anyting to LH levels. clomid does.

tore is 2nd generation nolva, u cant change the action of the drug between generations, only sides and efficacy

Tore does pretty much the same job as tamox, including raising LH levels.
Post #8,9,10.
http://www.modernfitnessforum.com/pr...aloxifene.html

[Lemonada8]

ok, i should be more clear.

Compared to clomid, tore does not increase LH levels similarily at all. its a difference of liek 10% to 150% raise in test levels which is directly correlated with LH levels.


and ive said that tore = tamox, but tore =/= clomid.

so using tore instead of clomid is very similar to doubling up the nolva, without the problems with high doses of tamox. its a 2nd generation of tamox, so its sides arent as severe.

[Swifto]

Plenty of bullshit in this thread...

tore doesnt do anyting to LH levels. clomid does.

tore is 2nd generation nolva, u cant change the action of the drug between generations, only sides and efficacy

"2nd Gen Nolva", thats a new one. Its a 2nd Gen SERM.

Actions are different but similar in 1st and 2nd Gen SERMs.

it doesnt raise it as high as clomid does.

and no that doesnt mean that ur values are 0. I recovered fine from a nolva only pct, i used hcg during cycle also.

u will recover naturally most likely, just takes a while to rebalance normally. the serms help balance it quicker by blocking the E from binding so not as much converts providing the boost in test.

clomid acts like a antagonist to the pit which makes it push out more LH than normal. thats why u can have a rebound from clomid only pct cuz it puts out to much LH.

also, tore increases the senstitivity of ur body to LH same does tamox. clomid lowers the sensitivity to LH

Where have you read "Clomid is better at raising LH than Tamox"? There are no existing comparable studies... So in essence, you havent.

If something acts as an antagonist, it usually reduces something, so I dont know where you have got, "clomid acts like a antagonist to the pit which makes it push out more LH than normal".

Both Torem and Tamox increase GnRH sensitivity... Clomid Decreases. Or has been shown to.

Correct, which would mean if the pituitary is sensitised to GnRH, it will push out MORE LH and FSH, not less.

ok, i should be more clear.

Compared to clomid, tore does not increase LH levels similarily at all. its a difference of liek 10% to 150% raise in test levels which is directly correlated with LH levels.


and ive said that tore = tamox, but tore =/= clomid.

so using tore instead of clomid is very similar to doubling up the nolva, without the problems with high doses of tamox. its a 2nd generation of tamox, so its sides arent as severe.

Total nonsense.

Where have you read this, or did you make it up?

In comparable studies at Tore 60mg/ED and Tamox 20mg/ED, Tamox was more effective at raising LH, FSH and TT in hypogondal males. The study is at the bottom of my PCT Sticky.

[Swifto]

I suggest Tore + Tamox for PCT, with a Tore or Tamox front load.

Tore 120/120/60/60/60/60 Tamox 20/20/20/20/20/20

OR

Tore 60/60/60/60/60/60 Tamox 40/20/20/20/20/20

[Lemonada8]

Plenty of bullshit in this thread...
"2nd Gen Nolva", thats a new one. Its a 2nd Gen SERM.

Actions are different but similar in 1st and 2nd Gen SERMs.

Where have you read "Clomid is better at raising LH than Tamox"? There are no existing comparable studies... So in essence, you havent.

If something acts as an antagonist, it usually reduces something, so I dont know where you have got, "clomid acts like a antagonist to the pit which makes it push out more LH than normal".

Correct, which would mean if the pituitary is sensitised to GnRH, it will push out MORE LH and FSH, not less.

Total nonsense.

Where have you read this, or did you make it up?

In comparable studies at Tore 60mg/ED and Tamox 20mg/ED, Tamox was more effective at raising LH, FSH and TT in hypogondal males. The study is at the bottom of my PCT Sticky.

2nd generation nolva is a slack term, i agree but im was tryin to show the difference between tore and clomid. their actions are different due to the antagonist action at the pituitary. people get SERMs mixed up thinking they are all the same action wise, which is incorrect.

and yes if its an antagonist it typically lowers something, but since estrogen regulates @ the pit by negative feedback, the antagonist action would actually increase output cuz its the oppsite effect of estrogen binding. antagonist has the oppsite action of the agonist, so if E is saying no the antagonist will say yes. u know this.

So by saying tore doesnt do anyting to LH levels was in a direct sense *in comparison to clomid*. Its increases sensivity to GnRH, which then increases LH+FSH. That is an indirect action.

doubling up on the nolva will end up doing more harm than good, thats why using tore inplace/also is better because it doesnt have as quite the actions at the positive aspects of estrogen. hence the 2nd generation part.

production of LH is directly correlated with test levels (minus responsiveness, etc) so by comparison, due to the antagonist action of clomid, it raises LH more than tamox or tore due to the total change of test levels. Clomid also lowers sensivity to GnRH which would lower test production, but its still way higher with clomid than tamox/tore.

my whole point here was to clear up the confusion between clomid and tamox/tore. not to argue between tore and tamox.

[5x10]

I suggest Tore + Tamox for PCT, with a Tore or Tamox front load.

Tore 120/120/60/60/60/60 Tamox 20/20/20/20/20/20

OR

Tore 60/60/60/60/60/60 Tamox 40/20/20/20/20/20

do u suggest that combo over your typical clomid/nolva stack?
in the past, i had some depression over clomid(it was a research chem clomid)
this time, i planned on running 25mg/20mg clomid/nolva, and if 25mg clomid gave me issues, i was going to cut it to 12.5mg ed

i do have torem as backup
but still wanted your opinion on which combo you think is more effective in QUICKLY returning you to baseline

[THE-DET-OAK]

I suggest Tore + Tamox for PCT, with a Tore or Tamox front load.

Tore 120/120/60/60/60/60 Tamox 20/20/20/20/20/20

OR

Tore 60/60/60/60/60/60 Tamox 40/20/20/20/20/20

I rec same thing, I was under the impression that torem actually acts more like clomid though, acting like an estrogen at the pituitary like clomid, to stimulate GNRH. Is my thinking correct?

[Flier]

I suggest Tore + Tamox for PCT, with a Tore or Tamox front load.

Tore 120/120/60/60/60/60 Tamox 20/20/20/20/20/20

OR

Tore 60/60/60/60/60/60 Tamox 40/20/20/20/20/20

Hey, thanks a lot for popping in and clearing all this up.

^^^^Thats exactly the PCT I´m doing....1 week in, feeling great. Actually feel better in all aspects than on cycle.

[Flier]

do u suggest that combo over your typical clomid/nolva stack?
in the past, i had some depression over clomid(it was a research chem clomid)
this time, i planned on running 25mg/20mg clomid/nolva, and if 25mg clomid gave me issues, i was going to cut it to 12.5mg ed

i do have torem as backup
but still wanted your opinion on which combo you think is more effective in QUICKLY returning you to baseline

Have u read his PCT thread?

These are his suggestions, depending on the length of the cycle:


1. PH/Designer Steroid PCT

wk 1-4 Tamox 20mg/ED

OR

wk 1-4 Clomid 25mg/ED (50mg/ED week 1)


2. Test Enan/Prop Cycle Lasting 6-14 Weeks

wk 1-6 Tamox 20mg/ED
wk 1-6 Tore 60mg/ED (120mg/ED first 14 days) OR Clomid 25mg/ED (50-100mg/ED first 7-14 days)
*HCG 250ius 2-3 times/wk (on cycle)
*Aromasin 10mg/EOD (on cycle)



3. Aggressive PCT (shutdown for 16-52+ weeks)

wk 1-8 Tamox 20mg/ED (40mg/ED first 7 days)
wk 1-8 Tore 60mg/ED (120mg/ED first 14 days, 100mg/ED next 7 days)
*HCG 250ius 2-3 times/wk (on cycle, every 8-10 weeks take a 2-3 week break [E2/PgR])
*HCG should also be ramped to 500ius 14-21 days from PCT
*Aromasin 10mg/EOD (on cycle)

[freakinhuge]

I suggest Tore + Tamox for PCT, with a Tore or Tamox front load.

Tore 120/120/60/60/60/60 Tamox 20/20/20/20/20/20

OR

Tore 60/60/60/60/60/60 Tamox 40/20/20/20/20/20

looks like a very good pct for anyone interested in torem instead of clomid.

[Lemonada8]

I rec same thing, I was under the impression that torem actually acts more like clomid though, acting like an estrogen at the pituitary like clomid, to stimulate GNRH. Is my thinking correct?

if it acts like estrogen at the pit gland, then it will slow LH production, lowering test production. Thats the agonist action.
tore doesnt have as much if any antagonist action at the pit gland. esp when compared to clomid. clomid has the antagonist action at the pit gland, which is the oppsite effect of the agonist aka estrogen.

and as was stated above, tamox was better at raising test levels than tore but they are both very mild in comparison in raise in T levels compared to clomid.

and if the arguement is that no direct study of LH levels were done between clomid and tore and tamox, then look at the end product. Tore and tamox increase GnRH sensitivity, clomid decreases it. Yet clomid has way larger increase in T levels with the GnRH desensivity.

[THE-DET-OAK]

if it acts like estrogen at the pit gland, then it will slow LH production, lowering test production. Thats the agonist action.
tore doesnt have as much if any antagonist action at the pit gland. esp when compared to clomid. clomid has the antagonist action at the pit gland, which is the oppsite effect of the agonist aka estrogen.

Lem, I am 100% positive clomid acts like estrogen at pituitary, attaching to E receptors there. Basically, it competes with estrogen there, therefore blocking the neg feedback loop that E would create, and diminish gonadatropin. Because it acts like E there, E can not attach to receptors. Nolva does not do this. so in short, clomid does both and nolva is simply an anti-estrogen.

[Lemonada8]

nope. when estrogen binds to the pit, that lowers gonadotropins. nolva binds to it instead of the estrogen but does not send the same signal, so when the no signal is being sent with the nolva the pit stays the same on LH production. This lessens the need for estrogen which means less test needs to be converted with aromatase enzyme. thats hows it raises T levels by not needing as much E to convert.
clomid binds to the E receptor and by its antagonist action, it binds at the E receptor and sends the oppsite signal that its not bound, which the pit sees as it needs more test so it pushes out more LH.
Estrogen is negative feedback, so it binds and that stops/halts production, antagonist action sends the oppsite signal which increases production.

[THE-DET-OAK]

Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist bro........................................... Nolva is not

From Scally.

Clomiphene is a synthetic derivative an estrogen. Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Tamoxifen is a pure estradiol receptor antagonist. Clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an antiestrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells to the action of GnRH. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as Clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors, tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. The estrogenic action of Clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.

[THE-DET-OAK]

by Bill Roberts - Clomid is the anti-estrogen of choice for improving recovery of natural testosterone production after a cycle, improving testosterone production of endurance athletes, and is also effective in reducing risk of gynecomastia during a cycle employing aromatizable steroids .

While it has been claimed that Clomid "stimulates" production of LH and therefore of testosterone, in fact Clomid’s activity is achieved not by stimulation of the hypothalamus and pituitary, but by blocking their inhibition by estrogen.

Clomid is a mixed estrogen agonist/antagonist (activator/blocker) which, when bound to the estrogen receptor, puts it in a somewhat different conformation (shape) than does estradiol. The estrogen receptor requires binding of an estrogen or drug at its binding site and also the binding of any of several cofactors at different sites. Without the binding of the cofactor, the estrogen receptor is inactive. Different tissues use different cofactors. Some of these cofactors are able to bind to the estrogen receptor/Clomid complex, but others are blocked due to the change in shape. The result is that in some tissues Clomid acts as an antagonist -- the cofactor used in that tissue cannot bind and so the receptor remains inactive -- and in others Clomid acts as an agonist (activator), because the cofactors used in that tissue are able to bind.

[Lemonada8]

Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist bro........................................... Nolva is not
.

I agree 100%. like ive been tryin to say, i was tryin to clear up the difference between clomid and nolva/tore.

[Lemonada8]

i guess i have to go technical here, cuz i cant use slang terms aka 2nd gen nolva, cuz thats not technically correct so here u go.

a serm is Selective estrogen Receptor modulator. So for the defination of the drug is at the receptor not the action.

nolva/tamox/tore is a estrogen receptor agonist because it binds and still sends the signal of E being bound to the receptor w/o activating any other cofactors. So it binds like estrogen, sends the "im here signal' and thats it.

clomid has antagonistic actions at the pit because when it binds, it does NOT send the "im here" signal so the pit thinks that E is not around, which then increases LH production. That is antagonistic action. If clomid had agonistic action at the pit, that "im here' signal would be sent and LH production would remain the same.

thats how the difference between raise in T levels is between those 2. Tamox/tore block the e from binding while still sending the 'im here' signal yet no further activation of cofactors is done. that is how it can suffocate gyno and reverse it. so, in a sense, tamox/tore is fake estrogen that takes the place of real estrogen which then lowers the need for aromatization.

Clomid does this, but has the antagonistic (im not here) at the pit, which increases LH production because there isnt the E binding, which inhibits LH production.

[Swifto]

Your both talking about estrogen priming at the pituitary and it doesnt exist in males, only females. See my sticky.

There is NO date comparing Clomid and Tamox on LH levels, so quit stating its "better". The one comparable study there way shown Tamox on top (GnRH sensitivity, LH, FSH , T pulse from use).

The one comparing Tamox, Rolax, Tore, Tamox was king.

Thats why ist the back bone of any PCT protocol I suggest.

[DAAS]

I can tell you that 2 weeks into PCT my boys were straight up Boulders, which is more of a Clomid effect than Nolva. My libido was shit, which is probably inevitable during PCT (for me at least)..

what is your PCT exactly?