proviron

[bigginhoose]

Is proviron effective as a anti e when running tren acetate

[redz]

No, also tren causs prolactin sides too which can`t be controlled with ai's only something like caber or bromo.

[bigginhoose]

What dose is effective

[RoidReaper]

Tren and Proviron= bald shiny head lol.

[Ashop]

Is proviron effective as a anti e when running tren acetate

I like PROVIRON in all my cycles for its many postive effects. TREN ACE itself doesnt aromatase

[TheClinch]

Look up threads by D7M. He explains the relationship between estrogen and progestin causing prosterone gyno. He explains how the use of Nolvadex everyday while using Tren or Deca will prevent this type of gyno without the use of caber or bromo. I'll look for this particular thread...

[TheClinch]

D7M

09-10-2010, 07:18 AM

More from Nandi....

PROGESTERONE AND PROLACTIN INDUCED GYNECOMASTIA


Before delving into this subject, I’d like to say first and foremost, that in users of anabolic/androgenic steroids (AAS) the first step in combating the development of gynecomastia, or male breast enlargement, is to eliminate the causative agent: the anabolic steroid. Drug-induced gynecomastia almost invariably resolves on its own when a person quits taking the drugs responsible for it, if caught before permanent fibrosis develops. Unfortunately, most AAS users don’t want to employ this simple approach, for obvious reasons, so the foregoing will all be under the assumption that a person wants to prevent or treat gyno and still continue steroid use.

In the belief that certain anabolic steroids increase prolactin levels as well as act as agonists at the progesterone receptor, some have advocated the use of antiprolactin agents, like bromocriptine, or progesterone receptor blockers like RU-486 to treat AAS related gynecomastia, in lieu of more traditional drugs like tamoxifen.

In truth, the etiology of gynecomastia is unknown and a number of agents including estrogens, progestins, GH, IGF-1, and prolactin may be involved. However, most authorities believe that a decreased (T+DHT)/E ratio is central to the development of gyno, and that blocking the effects of estrogen, or increasing T + DHT levels, is central to ameliorating the problem.

Regarding prolactin, androgens decrease prolactin levels whereas estrogens increase prolactin. Non-aromatizing androgens have never been shown to elevate prolactin levels in humans, but testosterone has, due to its aromatization to estradiol (19). Prolactin secreting tumors, or prolactinomas, are often associated with gyno. But in these cases the prolactin is believed to induce gyno by suppressing testosterone production: “Prolactinomas that are sufficiently large to cause gynecomastia do so as a result of impairment of gonadotropin secretion and secondary hypogonadism”. (20). However, this is a moot issue in AAS users whose gonadotropin secretion is already blunted.

According to research cited in (20), prolactin may have a direct stimulatory effect on mammary tissue development, but only in the presence of high estrogen levels:


The presence of mild hyperprolactinaemia is therefore not uncommon in patients with estrogen excess. Significant primary hyperprolactinaemia, on the other hand, may directly stimulate epithelial cell proliferation in an estrogen-primed breast, causing epithelial cell proliferation and gynaecomastia.

So rather than focusing solely on lowering prolactin levels which may be elevated in users of aromatizing androgens, attacking estrogen should be the first line of action.

GH and IGF-1 are considered critical to the proliferation of mammary tissue. An excellent review of the role played by these hormones, as well as a general overview of gynecomastia can be found here:




Since elevated GH and IGF-1 are considered important to the anabolic effect of AAS, it would be impractical and counterproductive to attempt to prevent gynecomastia by blocking GH/IGF.

Progesterone acts in concert with estrogen to promote breast development, and at least part of any role played by synthetic progestins may be to stimulate IGF-1 production in the breast. But again, blocking the action of progesterone or synthetic progestins is not practical. Specific progesterone receptor antagonists like RU-486 block not only the progesterone receptor, but the androgen receptor as well, and have actually been associated with the development of gynecomastia (21). In any case, progesterone is thought to act on the breast to enhance the effects of estrogen (22) so once again, attacking estrogen is the easiest and most logical approach.

DHT gel (Andractim) or a generic knockoff might help as well. DHT is thought to act as an aromatase inhibitor (23) and perhaps compete directly with estrogen for binding at the estrogen receptor (24). DHT has been used in several case reports and controlled trials to successfully treat gynecomastia. So perhaps a viable strategy would be to combine DHT gel with tamoxifen. I would recommend tamoxifen rather than an aromatase inhibitor due to the simple fact that tamoxifen has been widely used in numerous controlled studies to succesfully treat gynecomastia, whereas the evidence to support the efficacy of aromatase inhibitors is scanty at best.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



D7M

09-10-2010, 07:18 AM

References:

(1) Price TM, O'Brien SN, Welter BH, George R, Anandjiwala J, Kilgore M. Am J Obstet Gynecol 1998 Jan;178(1 Pt 1):101-7

(2) Bjorntorp P. Hum Reprod 1997 Oct;12 Suppl 1:21-5

(3) Ramirez ME, McMurry MP, Wiebke GA, Felten KJ, Ren K, Meikle AW, Iverius PH Metabolism 1997 Feb;46(2):179-85

(4) Zmuda JM, Fahrenbach MC, Younkin BT, Bausserman LL, Terry RB, Catlin DH, Thompson PD. Metabolism 1993 Apr;42(4):446-50

(5) Tomita T, Yonekura I, Okada T, Hayashi E
Horm Metab Res 1984 Oct;16(10):525-8

(6) Mystkowski P, Seeley RJ, Hahn TM, Baskin DG, Havel PJ, Matsumoto AM, Wilkinson CW, Peacock-Kinzig K, Blake KA, Schwartz MW. J Neurosci 2000 Nov 15;20(22):8637-42

(7) Greer,M. N Engl J Med 244:385, 1951

(8) Vagenakis AG, Braverman LE, Azizi F, Portinay GI, Ingbar SH. N Engl J Med 1975 Oct 2;293(14):681-4

(9) Krugman LG, Hershman JM, Chopra IJ, Levine GA, Pekary E, Geffner DL, Chua Teco GN J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1975 Jul;41(1):70-80

(10) Liva SM, Voskuhl RR J Immunol 2001 Aug 15;167(4):2060-7

(11) Ulloa-Aguirre A, Blizzard RM, Garcia-Rubi E, Rogol AD, Link K, Christie CM, Johnson ML, Veldhuis J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1990 Oct;71(4):846-54

(12) Hochman IH, Laron Z Horm Metab Res 1970 Sep;2(5):260-4
.
(13) Steinetz BG, Giannina T, Butler M, Popick F
Endocrinology 1972 May;90(5):1396-8

(14) Ferrando AA, Sheffield-Moore M, Yeckel CW, Gilkison C, Jiang J, Achacosa A, Lieberman SA, Tipton K, Wolfe RR, Urban RJ.
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2002 Mar;282(3):E601-7

(15) Sheffield-Moore M, Urban RJ, Wolf SE, Jiang J, Catlin DH, Herndon DN, Wolfe RR,
Ferrando AA
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1999 Aug;84(8):2705-11

(16) Doumit ME, Cook DR, Merkel RA..Endocrinology 1996 Apr;137(4):1385-94

(17) Bricout VA, Germain PS, Serrurier BD, Guezennec CY.Cell Mol Biol (Noisy-le-grand) 1994 May;40(3):291-4

(18) Ferrando AA, Sheffield-Moore M, Yeckel CW, Gilkison C, Jiang J, Achacosa A, Lieberman SA, Tipton K, Wolfe RR, Urban RJ.
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2002 Mar;282(3):E601-7

(19) Nicoletti I, Filipponi P, Fedeli L, Ambrosi F, Gregorini G, Santeusanio F
Acta Endocrinol (Copenh) 1984 Feb;105(2):167-72

(20) Ismail AA, Barth JH.Ann Clin Biochem 2001 Nov;38(Pt 6):596-607

(21) Grunberg SM, Weiss MH, Spitz IM, Ahmadi J, Sadun A, Russell CA, Lucci L, Stevenson LL J Neurosurg 1991 Jun;74(6):861-6

(22) Nomura K, Suzuki H, Saji M, Horiba N, Ujihara M, Tsushima T, Demura H, Shizume K
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1988 Jan;66(1):230-2

(23) Perel E, Stolee KH, Kharlip L, Blackstein ME, Killinger DW
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J Clin Invest 1984 Dec;74(6):2272-8

[bigginhoose]

Thanks mate but i was always lead to believe that tamoxifen was a big no no when using tren

[ridedivefx]

you need caber for tren and it will kill your hair. It wont happen during the cycle but after your done and through PCT it will give u a nice bald patch

[redz]

you need caber for tren and it will kill your hair. It wont happen during the cycle but after your done and through PCT it will give u a nice bald patch

This never happened to me with caber or Tren. The only compound that has made me lose any hair is winny at 100mg ed other than that nothing even winny at 50-75mg seems to be fine.

[D7M]

Thanks mate but i was always lead to believe that tamoxifen was a big no no when using tren

Not true. Tamox is fine, and even useful to run with 19nors.

You don't necessarily need caber/prami/etc with 19nors. Just be sure to control Estrogen from the start.

[ridedivefx]

This never happened to me with caber or Tren. The only compound that has made me lose any hair is winny at 100mg ed other than that nothing even winny at 50-75mg seems to be fine.

Caber is for the prolactin/progesterone related sides.

Tren in general is pretty bad with hair, but the effect is multiplied to individuals who are predisposed to male pattern baldness. I have friends who cycle tren, winny, proviron and nothing happens to their hair - I hate them...lol

[TheClinch]

Not true. Tamox is fine, and even useful to run with 19nors.

You don't necessarily need caber/prami/etc with 19nors. Just be sure to control Estrogen from the start.

Thanks!

[binsser]

i done tren never done any bold sht to me either!

[RoidReaper]

i done tren never done any bold sht to me either!

Are u prone?

[dec11]

Not true. Tamox is fine, and even useful to run with 19nors.

You don't necessarily need caber/prami/etc with 19nors. Just be sure to control Estrogen from the start.

x2, ive run it with deca and tren with no probs, an ai would be better but nolva can be used

[bigginhoose]

Can u use nolva then switch to an ai

[oscarjones]

This never happened to me with caber or Tren. The only compound that has made me lose any hair is winny at 100mg ed other than that nothing even winny at 50-75mg seems to be fine.

Can't speak for Tren. But, for me, Winny 100mg ED also thinned out my frontal hair near the hairline quite a bit. Always wished I had stayed away from the drug because I never saw any real positive results with it anyway. Just made me dry and my joints ache.