prop,tren,tamox

[bigginhoose]

I am currently running prop 100mg and tren a 80mg eod what dose of tamox should i add if nips get sore or sensitive have ran test before with no problem and tri tren with no probs but one wk in jst now and one nip feels like joggers nipple

[redz]

Do you have an ai on hand? Nolva at 20mg is a good starting point, if you get progesterone/prolactin issues you may need bromo or caber.

[bigginhoose]

Have plenty nolva jst waiting on adex coming no lumps or anything jst feels a bit raw have to wear a harness at work and rubs against it doesnt help lol should i use 20mg of nolva to adex arrives then switch to that at .50mg eod hows is adex towards libido and will it hinder gains .many thanks

[Lemonada8]

i would just stick with the nolva. unless u become milkable then go to adex and maybe caber/bromo but no untill then.

[FCVtec]

i would just stick with the nolva. unless u become milkable then go to adex and maybe caber/bromo but no untill then.

Why do you prefer the nolva over adex while on cycle?

[Lemonada8]

for gyno only nolva is better. if there are other sides related to estrogen then i actually prefer aromasin cuz its a suicide inhibitor.

nolva blocks receptor for E2, adex stops aromatization so you can have more problems if you dont dose the adex right.

[Swifto]

Tamox is fine to run WITH progesterone, prolactin related gyno. Why? Because it will down regulate the progesterone receptor in healthy breast tissue, just like it does the estorgen receptor.

As for prolactin, you'll need a dopamine agonist to lower PRL, but if your were using an AI on cycle, PRL should not get increased, it can, but it is rare even when using 19-Nor's.

Tamox is not a good suggestion over an AI for this very reason. SERMs on cycle are old old old school.

[bigginhoose]

So swito u say i would be best switching to an ai like adex at what dose

[Swifto]

0.5mg/ED, or 1mg/ED for the first 5-6days, then down to 0.5mg/ED.

[bigginhoose]

I am also using hcg at 500iu twice a wk is this ok thanks

[FCVtec]

0.5mg/ED, or 1mg/ED for the first 5-6days, then down to 0.5mg/ED.

Hey Swifto I know you are very respected around here and I am not trying to say you are wrong but I take only .25mg eod during cycle.. I keeps my nips from been sore and also keeps bloat to a acceptable level... Shouldn't one use as little AI as possible during cycle to avoid hindering gains?? Maybe after the initial 5 days he should try the lowest dose possible that still does the job of keeping the soreness and gyno away? .5mg ED is way more than what I personally need to avoid gyno and soreness completely.

[Lemonada8]

Tamox is fine to run WITH progesterone, prolactin related gyno. Why? Because it will down regulate the progesterone receptor in healthy breast tissue, just like it does the estorgen receptor.

As for prolactin, you'll need a dopamine agonist to lower PRL, but if your were using an AI on cycle, PRL should not get increased, it can, but it is rare even when using 19-Nor's.

Tamox is not a good suggestion over an AI for this very reason. SERMs on cycle are old old old school.

If you read my first post, i said if he became milkable *the tell tale sign of prolactin gyno* to switch over to adex and maybe add caber/bromo. but if its just sore and nothing else then what is so bad about tamox?

[JimmySidewalk]

I am on the same cycle at the moment. 20mgs of nolva ED is the sweet spot for me, no puffy nipps at all and very good gains. At 10mgs as i originally started nipps started getting pretty puffy. But then again, that is my sweet spot, maybe its another amount for you.

[bigginhoose]

Cheers for the reply guys

[Swifto]

Hey Swifto I know you are very respected around here and I am not trying to say you are wrong but I take only .25mg eod during cycle.. I keeps my nips from been sore and also keeps bloat to a acceptable level... Shouldn't one use as little AI as possible during cycle to avoid hindering gains?? Maybe after the initial 5 days he should try the lowest dose possible that still does the job of keeping the soreness and gyno away? .5mg ED is way more than what I personally need to avoid gyno and soreness completely.

The dose should depend on the person, yes.

The dose needs to be determined by a few points IMHO.

- Total amount of aromotasable compounds being used

- Choice of compounds being used. For example, DHT's exert anti-aromotase effects, so I use less of my AI when using Winstrol , Primo etc... Because of this.

- 19-Nors, or not or compounds like Test Susp that aromotase heavily

- Bodyfat %. More addipose tissue = more space for aromotase to do its dirty work

- Diet. Certain foods inhibit aromotase more so than others

- Sensitivity to estrogen or estrogen related sides effects (gyno, acne, prostate, water retention)

- The age of the individual. AI's effects on estrogen are not uniform accross all age groups (young/middle aged/old)

- Sex of subject

- Bulking, cutting, pre-contest?

I agree that the lowest dose should be used, also, yes. 0.5mg/ED is a good starting dose with Arimdiex and should be adjusted taking into account the above points.

AI's do not lower estrogen in males as much as they do females.

I am on the same cycle at the moment. 20mgs of nolva ED is the sweet spot for me, no puffy nipps at all and very good gains. At 10mgs as i originally started nipps started getting pretty puffy. But then again, that is my sweet spot, maybe its another amount for you.

Have you not tried using an AI on cycle?

Your aware estrogen is a carcinogen and if not kept in normal ranges, is quite toxic.

[Swifto]

If you read my first post, i said if he became milkable *the tell tale sign of prolactin gyno* to switch over to adex and maybe add caber/bromo. but if its just sore and nothing else then what is so bad about tamox?

I read your "first post" but what you failed to understand is that "milk nips" is not always a sign of prolactin related gyno.

Hypogondal males have been known to lactate and so have males with just increased estrogen levels.

Lactation in males is NOT just because of prolactin.

I always suggest using an AI, always if aromotasable compounds are used. Some even get increased E on HRT, so then doc. and endo's suggest using a low dose of an AI.

AI of choice? Exemestane (Aromasin ). It doesnt interect negatively with Tamoxifen if you need to run it to combat gyno. Letro can be very strong in males and Arimidex can be directly toxic to joints even in small doses.

Keep Tamox on hand at all times and if using 19-Nor's where the possibility of prolactin increasing seems more so, from evidence gathered on these boards, keep a D-agonist on hand also (Caber/Prami/Bromo). But an AI alone should suffice.

[jimmyinkedup]

I read your "first post" but what you failed to understand is that "milk nips" is not always a sign of prolactin related gyno.

Hypogondal males have been known to lactate and so have males with just increased estrogen levels.

Lactation in males is NOT just because of prolactin.

I always suggest using an AI, always if aromotasable compounds are used. Some even get increased E on HRT, so then doc. and endo's suggest using a low dose of an AI.

AI of choice? Exemestane (Aromasin ). It doesnt interect negatively with Tamoxifen if you need to run it to combat gyno. Letro can be very strong in males and Arimidex can be directly toxic to joints even in small doses.

Keep Tamox on hand at all times and if using 19-Nor's where the possibility of prolactin increasing seems more so, from evidence gathered on these boards, keep a D-agonist on hand also (Caber/Prami/Bromo). But an AI alone should suffice.

This is a great post. Everyone should read it. It summarizes so many things clearly and concisely with simple explainations. Nice post Swift.....

[Swifto]

If you read my first post, i said if he became milkable *the tell tale sign of prolactin gyno* to switch over to adex and maybe add caber/bromo. but if its just sore and nothing else then what is so bad about tamox?

I'm going to take the time to pass on what I know here as I was going to write an article on male lactation. I still will when I get the time...


- Surges in prolactin in most mammal's means lactation, but if you look at some human cases, such as alcholism, hypogonadism, liver cirrosus men have been shown to lactate. That doesnt mean their PRL surged, but they did exert hormonal inbalances.

- In males in POW camps after WWII and showed severe cases of malnourishment, men experienced testicular, pituitary and liver atrophy. Post release the pituitary and testes recoverd rapidly, but the liver was slower to regain full function. The result was hormone inbalances and male lactation.

- Suckling on males nipples can actually cause them to lactate over time.

- Diet changes (phyto estrogens) can cause females to lactate because of their estrogen like effects.

- Pesticides in foods can cause lactation by hormonal changes.

- Teratorial and enviromental factors in mammals can cause or prevent lactation in males

- Stress in some species

- Parental care

So as you can see, prolactin does not = lactation.

If you unsserstand how prolactin is regulated and synthesised (google long feedback mechanism) you'll understand that controlling estrogen = controlling prolactin.

[Swifto]

This is a great post. Everyone should read it. It summarizes so many things clearly and concisely with simple explainations. Nice post Swift.....

Cheers mate.

Always try and break it down simply. I know it can be a foreign language when your new to this, as I was years ago and didnt know my pin from my plunger.

[bigginhoose]

How will adex at say a dose of 0.5 ed or eod affect gains on cycle and will it have any affect on libido

[Swifto]

How will adex at say a dose of 0.5 ed or eod affect gains on cycle and will it have any affect on libido

Very minimal.

Its nothing to be concerned about at all.

[bigginhoose]

Cheers propably switch to adex c how it goes is hcg 500iu twice a week ok

[FCVtec]

The dose should depend on the person, yes.

The dose needs to be determined by a few points IMHO.

- Total amount of aromotasable compounds being used

- Choice of compounds being used. For example, DHT's exert anti-aromotase effects, so I use less of my AI when using Winstrol , Primo etc... Because of this.

- 19-Nors, or not or compounds like Test Susp that aromotase heavily

- Bodyfat %. More addipose tissue = more space for aromotase to do its dirty work

- Diet. Certain foods inhibit aromotase more so than others

- Sensitivity to estrogen or estrogen related sides effects (gyno, acne, prostate, water retention)

- The age of the individual. AI's effects on estrogen are not uniform accross all age groups (young/middle aged/old)

- Sex of subject

- Bulking, cutting, pre-contest?

I agree that the lowest dose should be used, also, yes. 0.5mg/ED is a good starting dose with Arimdiex and should be adjusted taking into account the above points.

AI's do not lower estrogen in males as much as they do females.

Thanks for info

[PK-V]

increase your dht levels

and you will have no gyno

[Lemonada8]

I was not misunderstood anywhere. If I had said to add the dope agonist if they are milkable then yes, but I said to go to the ai and maybe add the bromo. If they milk then obviously estrogen is to high so then go on a ai.
And yea prolactin causes lactation. It is the primary cause of lactation in mammals. Elevated estrogen makes the receptor for prolactin more sensitive, so the same amount of prolactin becomes more potent. So yes control estrogen and the prolactin issues should be fine.
But if tamoxifen is ran it will occupy the receptor but not make the prl more sensitive to prolactin. That was a old idea regarding progestins and tamoxifen. And if it downregulates the receptor then that will minimize the possible issues.
As for doc's using ai on trt it's because the test amount is too much but since it is with such long esters and hard to adjust the amount and see a diffence the fast solution is use a ai. That is still when they have issues.
As for aromasin as the ai, yes the best. Letro should be a last resort and if it's needed then bodyfat was too high.

[Swifto]

Elevated estrogen makes the receptor for prolactin more sensitive, so the same amount of prolactin becomes more potent. But if tamoxifen is ran it will occupy the receptor but not make the prl more sensitive to prolactin.

Where did you read this?

I assume you mean in breast cancer patients, not healthy subjects because of the limited data we have on breast tissue growth (glandular/ductal/stromal) in normal subjects, not cancerous. If so, time and time again, various receptors (progesterone to name one) act differently in cancerous tissue than they do in healthy.

In cancerous subjects, human prolactin can increase estrogen receptor expression from what I have read. Which is quite the opposite to what your saying.

[Lemonada8]

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...&#.Th-GeZt5mc0

I agree about using a ai to treat prolactin Gyno but doing Tamox thru cycle should provide enough protection, and if it still arises then go to a ai.

It will take some time to refind that exact answer though, I researched that when I was looking for the argument of "don't use nolva with progestins for the specific reason of prolactin gyno.". Which turned out to not go that way.

I didnt say anything about prolacting increasing the er, but elevated estro makes the prl more apt to inducing Gyno with a minimal/if any increase in serum prolactin.