PCT Question regarding when you know your system is going back online

**dmk327** · 07-17-2011, 12:02 PM

So I have been off for 12 days now from test prop which I stepped down my last 2 weeks of the cycle to 50mg EOD. Currently on nolvadex 20mg ED at night. My main concern is I take oxycodone for pain control which I read has a negative effect on the HPTA. WIll this hinder recovery at such low doses as 5-15mg a day of oxycodone in the form of percocet?
What I have noticed so far is:
1.A drastic 10lb loss of weight in the first week off, this has leveled off.
2. No motivation to lift
3.Libido is normal
4. Appetite loss
5.General muscle and joint soreness
6. I have seen oddly enough though an increase in definition and vascularity in my forearms and arms
7.A weird sensation in the testicles and penis like a sudden urge to ejaculate or something
What I am mainly looking for is tell tell signs that my system is coming back on besides the obvious which is getting bloodwork( which I am getting next week)
Cycle was 12 weeks and was
Test prop 150mg EOD and then 75mg EOD and the last 2 weeks 50mg EOD
Also ran Winstrol 100mg EOD for a bit but stopped bc of "joint issues"

**gixxerboy1** · 07-17-2011, 12:18 PM

what is your pct just nolva at 20mg ed?

**mani_bono** · 07-17-2011, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by dmk327

1.A drastic 10lb loss of weight in the first week off, this has leveled off.

So how much you gained during the cycle? 10lbs is a lot IMO, how is your diet and training?

also your PCT is wrong you have to use Clomid with Nolva.

I'm on day 10 of my pct with 50mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva and I haven't lost any weight. (I've gained 12 lbs during my cycle)

**mani_bono** · 07-17-2011, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by dmk327

1.A drastic 10lb loss of weight in the first week off, this has leveled off.

So how much you gained during the cycle? 10lbs is a lot IMO, how is your diet and training?

also your PCT is wrong you have to use Clomid with Nolva.

I'm on day 10 of my pct with 50mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva and I haven't lost any weight. (I've gained 12 lbs during my cycle)

**dmk327** · 07-17-2011, 08:47 PM

I feel that nolva is just about the same as clomid as far as pharmacological action. Another reason for refusing to administer and prescribe myself clomid is the "vision problems" that are rare but serious and permanent. I started at 190lbs and ended cycle at about 230. I feel the rapid loss period was water which I would not discount due to not using any ancillaries such as arimidex on cycle. Also worth noting was the addition of Furosemide at the conclusion of my last prop pin for a few days due to some other reasons that I wish to take a 5th on. As of now I have upped my calories as recommended to maintain gains. Also it would happen that had a scheduled 2 week break off weight training( I take breaks every 10-12 weeks to allow for joints,ligs, tendons and to prevent muscle adaptation to weight training). So I am mainly waiting it out and getting more serious about cardiovascular training to keep my metabolism up and heart healthy.

I am not here to start a nolva vs clomid war as I believe each has its own place and it varies from one person to another. I will go on the record to say though that there is alot of conflicting information on the net comparing the two. I have read clomid is better for stimulating natural test production and vice versa. From my standpoint I understand neither directly exert their actions to specifically perform this. I understand it to have something to do with negative feedback and stimulation of the hypothalamus to release LH which in turn would signal the testes to produce testosterone . Also I believe this will help to lessen some of the side effects of having no test and elevated estrogen such as gyno, depression, acne, fat deposition, loss of muscle mass, lethargy, etc.

Anyone with more insight on this? I know some of you think I am an idiot bc of past cycle experience and what not but I research this stuff and love it as much as you guys do. I am not your average person who thought on day, "I could gain more muscle in 3 months with steroids than I would in 3 years naturally".... And I know it definitely does not work like....

Thanks

**Bonaparte** · 07-17-2011, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by mani_bono

So how much you gained during the cycle? 10lbs is a lot IMO, how is your diet and training?

also your PCT is wrong you have to use Clomid with Nolva.
I'm on day 10 of my pct with 50mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva and I haven't lost any weight. (I've gained 12 lbs during my cycle)

No. While it is a good idea to stack the two (since it ensures that you cover all bases), it is hardly mandatory.

**dec11** · 07-17-2011, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by dmk327

I feel that nolva is just about the same as clomid as far as pharmacological action. Another reason for refusing to administer and prescribe myself clomid is the "vision problems" that are rare but serious and permanent. I started at 190lbs and ended cycle at about 230. I feel the rapid loss period was water which I would not discount due to not using any ancillaries such as arimidex on cycle. Also worth noting was the addition of Furosemide at the conclusion of my last prop pin for a few days due to some other reasons that I wish to take a 5th on. As of now I have upped my calories as recommended to maintain gains. Also it would happen that had a scheduled 2 week break off weight training( I take breaks every 10-12 weeks to allow for joints,ligs, tendons and to prevent muscle adaptation to weight training). So I am mainly waiting it out and getting more serious about cardiovascular training to keep my metabolism up and heart healthy.

I am not here to start a nolva vs clomid war as I believe each has its own place and it varies from one person to another. I will go on the record to say though that there is alot of conflicting information on the net comparing the two. I have read clomid is better for stimulating natural test production and vice versa. From my standpoint I understand neither directly exert their actions to specifically perform this. I understand it to have something to do with negative feedback and stimulation of the hypothalamus to release LH which in turn would signal the testes to produce testosterone . Also I believe this will help to lessen some of the side effects of having no test and elevated estrogen such as gyno, depression, acne, fat deposition, loss of muscle mass, lethargy, etc.

Anyone with more insight on this? I know some of you think I am an idiot bc of past cycle experience and what not but I research this stuff and love it as much as you guys do. I am not your average person who thought on day, "I could gain more muscle in 3 months with steroids than I would in 3 years naturally".... And I know it definitely does not work like....

Thanks

at least 25lbs of that is water and thats if you arent grossly exaggerating in the 1st place

**Bonaparte** · 07-17-2011, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by dec11

at least 25lbs of that is water and thats if you arent grossly exaggerating in the 1st place

I can't imagine a 40lb weight increase in a few months. He must have looked like a water balloon!

**dec11** · 07-17-2011, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by Bonaparte

I can't imagine a 40lb weight increase in a few months. He must have looked like a water balloon!

yeah def sounds fishy to me. never even heard of anyone experienced gaining that much that quick

**mani_bono** · 07-17-2011, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by Bonaparte

I can't imagine a 40lb weight increase in a few months. He must have looked like a water balloon!

Sounds like Kevin Levrone getting rerady for a show! lol
It can be done IMO (as Kevin used to do it) if you gaining back muscles that you had before (muscle memory)

**dmk327** · 07-18-2011, 01:15 AM

try 6 months

**dmk327** · 07-18-2011, 01:38 AM

not to mention being of the Aryan race

**ridedivefx** · 07-18-2011, 02:23 AM

Losing 10lbs in 1st week is not normal after a simple 12 week cycle specially if you just use prop which has low water retention. TestE would have made sense because the weight loss could be attributed to bloat.

How is your strength? is it still up. I am on 3 week of PCT (nolva/clomid) after a 20 weeker. I still have to lose strength, my bench and squats are still the same even though I have lost water weight. The aim in PCT and after should be to maintain what you have gained on cycle and strength is a pretty good indicator.

I would suggest to look into your diet, more protein, increase the intensity of workouts to push harder and at least from my experience always use nolva and clomid for pct. Did you use hcg ?

**dmk327** · 07-18-2011, 10:55 AM

No HCG . Like I said this was 2 back to back misguided cycles that ran 6 months so you cannot discount that even prop was causing massive water retention due to high estrogen levels. I would not know if my strength is down bc I do not max out anymore and lift for form vs. ego. I have also been on a 2 week break for overall recovery. I will say it is getting harder and harder to get that motivation to go run every day. At this point I am far more concerned about overall HPTA recovery vs keeping gains(its still important and am doing everything in my power to retain), but I think I have to come to terms with the fact that the way I ran my cycle was flawed and misguided. Diet is 3500 calories, 250-275g protein every day, 300-350g carbs ed (try to get about 225-250 from complex carb sources and about 50 simple carbs post workout), 75-100g fat. I realize the fats may be kinda high but I absolutely CANNOT tolerate the taste of chicken and prefer the taste of red meats. Would increasing workout intensity really make sense though? because it my understanding that when in pct cortisol levels are also skyrocketing.

**yearightbuddy** · 07-18-2011, 11:44 AM

Dam well if u were on 6 months of gear as i understand it, i would have at least done nolva too. Better safe then sorry.

Also woulda done HCG

**Lemonada8** · 07-18-2011, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by dmk327

I feel that nolva is just about the same as clomid as far as pharmacological action. Another reason for refusing to administer and prescribe myself clomid is the "vision problems" that are rare but serious and permanent. I started at 190lbs and ended cycle at about 230. I feel the rapid loss period was water which I would not discount due to not using any ancillaries such as arimidex on cycle. Also worth noting was the addition of Furosemide at the conclusion of my last prop pin for a few days due to some other reasons that I wish to take a 5th on. As of now I have upped my calories as recommended to maintain gains. Also it would happen that had a scheduled 2 week break off weight training( I take breaks every 10-12 weeks to allow for joints,ligs, tendons and to prevent muscle adaptation to weight training). So I am mainly waiting it out and getting more serious about cardiovascular training to keep my metabolism up and heart healthy.

I am not here to start a nolva vs clomid war as I believe each has its own place and it varies from one person to another. I will go on the record to say though that there is alot of conflicting information on the net comparing the two. I have read clomid is better for stimulating natural test production and vice versa. From my standpoint I understand neither directly exert their actions to specifically perform this. I understand it to have something to do with negative feedback and stimulation of the hypothalamus to release LH which in turn would signal the testes to produce testosterone. Also I believe this will help to lessen some of the side effects of having no test and elevated estrogen such as gyno, depression, acne, fat deposition, loss of muscle mass, lethargy, etc.

Anyone with more insight on this? I know some of you think I am an idiot bc of past cycle experience and what not but I research this stuff and love it as much as you guys do. I am not your average person who thought on day, "I could gain more muscle in 3 months with steroids than I would in 3 years naturally".... And I know it definitely does not work like....

Thanks

Clomid is a agonist/antagonist at the receptor (antagonist @ the pit = more LH output)
Nolva is a agonist at the receptor (agonist @ the pit = not much difference from normal)
they are 2 complete different drugs. Estrogen inhibits LH release because of the negative feedback. so by inhibiting estro from binding and inhibiting LH release, it raises test levels. Clomid can cause estro rebound depending on dose and the person

also HCG is *IMO* a necessity for any cycle to maintain testes size.

**Bonaparte** · 07-18-2011, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by dmk327

not to mention being of the Aryan race

Wait, what?
Did you seriously just go there?

**dmk327** · 07-18-2011, 09:41 PM

IT WAS A JOKE Bonaparte... Calm down please

**dmk327** · 07-18-2011, 09:42 PM

So Lemonade, you are basically saying Clomid is superior overall for pct and what we are all seeking to obtain by use of these drugs?

**Bonaparte** · 07-18-2011, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by dmk327

IT WAS A JOKE Bonaparte... Calm down please

Oh good. 'Cause we don't take kindly to Nazis around here

**dmk327** · 07-18-2011, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by Bonaparte

Oh good. 'Cause we don't take kindly to Nazis around here

Hahaha... So in all seriousness I am on Nolva right now and I notice I am like drowsy after taking it. Is this normal? It may also be the true length of my cycle that I am suffering a sort of "burn out... I may make a future post/poll out of this next question but I was wondering for anyone who is reading: What was the longest cycle you ever ran and did the length make pct worse compared to shorter cycles?

**Bonaparte** · 07-18-2011, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by dmk327

Hahaha... So in all seriousness I am on Nolva right now and I notice I am like drowsy after taking it. Is this normal? It may also be the true length of my cycle that I am suffering a sort of "burn out... I may make a future post/poll out of this next question but I was wondering for anyone who is reading: What was the longest cycle you ever ran and did the length make pct worse compared to shorter cycles?

Yeah, SERMs can cause mental "cloudiness" if that's what you mean. I mostly get it from larger doses of Clomid.

And I've run PCT after a 20 week cycle and it took a long time to recover. Much longer than the standard 12 weeker (libido-wise, at least).
But this is pretty much common knowledge. I've never heard anyone claim that they recover faster from longer cycles, since that just wouldn't make any sense.

**dmk327** · 07-18-2011, 11:34 PM

Damn.... well how long in total did it take for you to recover from the 20 weeker

**Bonaparte** · 07-19-2011, 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by dmk327

Damn.... well how long in total did it take for you to recover from the 20 weeker

I didn't get bloodwork before and after to compare, so I can't put a definite number on it. But I'd gauge roughly 2-3 months.

**ridedivefx** · 07-19-2011, 01:15 AM

Originally Posted by dmk327

No HCG. Like I said this was 2 back to back misguided cycles that ran 6 months so you cannot discount that even prop was causing massive water retention due to high estrogen levels. I would not know if my strength is down bc I do not max out anymore and lift for form vs. ego. I have also been on a 2 week break for overall recovery. I will say it is getting harder and harder to get that motivation to go run every day. At this point I am far more concerned about overall HPTA recovery vs keeping gains(its still important and am doing everything in my power to retain), but I think I have to come to terms with the fact that the way I ran my cycle was flawed and misguided. Diet is 3500 calories, 250-275g protein every day, 300-350g carbs ed (try to get about 225-250 from complex carb sources and about 50 simple carbs post workout), 75-100g fat. I realize the fats may be kinda high but I absolutely CANNOT tolerate the taste of chicken and prefer the taste of red meats. Would increasing workout intensity really make sense though? because it my understanding that when in pct cortisol levels are also skyrocketing.

Overall HPTA and maintaining gains are connected. You will lose your gains if your body does not kick back in time, daz what happens with no PCT loss of everything and feel like a woman long after cycle is done.

I suggest intensity because right now you have no extraneous Test and your muscle are under less stimulation a double whammy. Ofcourse your strength will go down but lifting heavy and having the diet correct the key to keeping gains.

I use HCG through out the cycle and have not used HCG during PCT but many do that. You will get more on this in PCT section

**Lemonada8** · 07-19-2011, 06:23 AM

Originally Posted by dmk327

So Lemonade, you are basically saying Clomid is superior overall for pct and what we are all seeking to obtain by use of these drugs?

it all depends on the person and how suppressed they were on cycle. for any 19nor, clomid is a must IMO. other than that, some have good success doubling up on nolva *tamox + tore* than adding in clomid.
for test only, i find its good enough to do a tamox only pct, provided HCG was done on cycle.