HCG and why it is important

**Lemonada8** · 09-04-2011, 05:45 PM

HCG is Human Chorionic Gonadotropin which in males, it acts like LH. Now im not going to get indepth for spermatogensis but its a key part of sperm formation. When you get down to it, if you can create functional sperm then you have proper hormone levels, plain and simple. This is a balance between Testosterone , estrogen, progesterone, and cortisol. This is the steroid hormone balance, there is also some thyroid hormones that play a part in this also, but since those arent affected by steroids very much (except for Tren , which a noob shouldnt take and by the time they are ready for it they should have a functional knowledge of how this all works) Im not gonna go into that.
When you put exogenous testosterone in the body, it stimulates the inhibition of production of GnRH (LH + FSH) which travel down to the testes to produce sperm. This process is inhibited when estrogen values get to high in the blood then the Pituitary sees this and stops secretion. This estrogen is derived from higher estrogen conversion because you have more test in your body. This inhibits the secretion of LH and FSH which then doesnt travel to your testes and they dont produce testosterone. That is the basic reason why your balls shrink on cycle because they arent producing test. They lose the Intratesticular testosterone volume in the testes which with out this they shrink down. They arent producing test, so they basically go back to prepubertal size before they produce testosterone and sperm in the quantity post pubertal. So essentially what you are doing while on cycle is 'reverting' back to prepubertal state of hormone production but still benefiting the gains of testosterone that you supply exogenously. Then PCT is essentially a real quick start up of puberty again and try to get producing your own test again while your body is in a state of hormone deprivation. Thats why PCT is so important and there is a whole sub-forum on it with several stickies.

HCG acts like LH when you have exogenous test in your system so that keeps your testes going. Although there isnt any FSH, the HCG is sufficient to keep spermatogensis going while you are on cycle (1). Remember you inhibit your own production of sperm from both levels of stimulation (pituitary and testes) (which Hypogonadotropic (no LH FSH) and hypogonadal (shriveled testes)(HGHG) This shows that HCG is capable of stimulating spermatogensis even without the presence of FSH. Now that in the study it was natural HGHG not induced by a steroid cycle, so we can assume that there is a natural functioning spermatogensis before a cycle and with HCG usage on cycle you can maintain spermatogensis which helps recovery ALOT! if you keep rolling instead of stopping its much easier to get back rolling if you dont stop.

So in a real quick explanation, ( its out of my free time, dont have incentive to go gung-ho with many sources and thorough explanation) HCG is best for ON CYCLE.

Another thing, it should NOT be used daily. The testosterone effect resulting from HCG is about 72 hours. (2) So by using this daily, its going to be a waste and since it is a hormone that works in a diurnal fashion (meaning its like a wave, goes up and down; this is natural in the body) If you take this ED you dont have it used by the body correctly which can lead to LH recpetor insenstivity, which is very bad for recovery because since natural LH is suppressed following a cycle you want the receptor to be as sensitive as possible.

One issue with HCG is it does increase aromatization seperately so you will have a greater conversion to estrogen. However, IGF-1 (potent growth factor) is dependent on estrogen you should only take precautions if you start to have issues. If you are gyno prone, you should be on Nolva on cycle and if have other issues should think of starting a AI along with the nolva. (Nolva is best for gyno only, using a AI wont always take care of the problem, but thats a different issue)

So for a quick dosage:
250iu - 500iu 2x a week ON CYCLE, up untill your first day of PCT. So if using test e, you still take it in the 2 weeks between last shot of test e and start of PCT.
Now you definately want to run this at the end of your cycle at bare minimum of 5 weeks, but since HCG is cheaper compared to the other stuff you gotta get on cycle it shouldnt be a problem.
I would begin HCG on the 2nd week of any cycle and run it up untill first day of PCT, starting at 250iu 2x a week and then you have to pay attention to your body. If you are still having some small testes then up it to 500iu but you have to give it some time to fully work (so 1-2 weeks)

http://www.eje-online.org/content/147/5/617.short (1)
Maintenance of spermatogenesis in hypogonadotropic hypogonadal men with human chorionic gonadotropin alone
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16285473 (2)
Serum estradiol after single dose hCG administration correlates with Leydig cell reserve in hypogonadal men: reassessment of the hCG stimulation test

^2 important sources, but if you question the validity of something else i said just lemme know and ill try to get the article back

**Bulkn** · 09-04-2011, 08:15 PM

Is it fine to run HCG for long peroids of time, say 5 or 6 months?

**Lemonada8** · 09-04-2011, 08:57 PM

So are you planning to do a 20-24 week cycle? running HCG by itself doesnt do much for raising test levels, it would be primarily for maintaining your boys function when there is exogenous test in the system

**Granovich** · 09-04-2011, 11:43 PM

thanx Lemonada8
great post and very beneficial

**Bulkn** · 09-05-2011, 06:53 AM

Originally Posted by Lemonada8

So are you planning to do a 20-24 week cycle? running HCG by itself doesnt do much for raising test levels, it would be primarily for maintaining your boys function when there is exogenous test in the system

I just started pct now after a 23 week cycle of sustanon , test E and dbol . I just used HCG for the 2 weeks between my last shot and pct.
Mid next year i'll be doing another 20+ week cycle possibly using deca and tren , so ill need to run HGC throughout or i'll be shut down HARD!

**tuppy55** · 09-05-2011, 08:19 AM

My friend has done a test e cycle and has hcg on hand but said he's not going to use it. Would you recommend he did? A question for my knowledge where I am hcg comes with 3x1ml liquid and 3x1500 iu powder if he did 500iu twice a week Monday and Thursday would that be fine? Also since the hcg is in the things you have to smash how would you mix it and store it? I have seen that people mix them and leave it in the syringe in the fridge ready to inject is that ok? But how would you mix it sorry just want to know all ins and outs for future reference

**tuppy55** · 09-05-2011, 08:27 AM

Sorry double post

**Lemonada8** · 09-05-2011, 01:29 PM

Personally, i wouldnt use the water they included unless i knew it was bact water. If u use bact water you can store the syringe in the fridge. However, a smart idea would be to mix it and put it in a vial then store hte vial in the fridge.
but def store it in the fridge. And 500iu 2x a week would be fine, why start at 500iu tho? ur gonna have to save it anyways might as well start at 250iu.

**tuppy55** · 09-05-2011, 01:45 PM

Start pct when? 2 weeks in to cycle and right the way through to beginning of pct remaining at 250iu twice a week and if ur balls Shrink maybe increase 300iu twice a week etc?

**Lemonada8** · 09-05-2011, 01:49 PM

start PCT according to the normal time you start depending on the ester.

and 250 to 300 isnt gonna do much, i would go up to 500iu if you arent getting much stimulation.

**tuppy55** · 09-05-2011, 02:14 PM

Sorry I meant to ask start hcg when? And finish when?

**Lemonada8** · 09-05-2011, 02:30 PM

start 1-2 weeks in cycle is what i would suggest but with longer esters you can wait a lil longer till week 3-4. and do it up untill first day of taking pct med

**tuppy55** · 09-05-2011, 02:37 PM

Ok final question on mixing get a vial of bacteriostatic water a sterile vial then withdraw some liquid from bac water crack open powder then mix withdraw it and put in to sterile vile the. Top up with bac water to correct solution?

**dirtyluke1** · 09-05-2011, 02:51 PM

I used to always run HCG at the end of cycle, this time ran all through out at 250iu x week..........now into 4th week of clomid + nolva and i feel fukin amazing nuts r full, feels like no crash at all this is fuked up my strength is goin up which is really weird i feel amazing in the gym.........in the past when taking clomid + nolva for pct always felt like a bag of shit no desire or energy to train.........i wont be doin another cycle with HCG through out ever again.........my cycle was test e for 14 weeks
+ tren e for 10 weeks..........

**tuppy55** · 09-05-2011, 02:55 PM

You said you liked doing it throughout yours nuts were amazing and feel good on clomid but at the end you said you won't be doing hcg throughout again?

**Lemonada8** · 09-05-2011, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by dirtyluke1

I used to always run HCG at the end of cycle, this time ran all through out at 250iu x week..........now into 4th week of clomid + nolva and i feel fukin amazing nuts r full, feels like no crash at all this is fuked up my strength is goin up which is really weird i feel amazing in the gym.........in the past when taking clomid + nolva for pct always felt like a bag of shit no desire or energy to train.........i wont be doin another cycle with HCG through out ever again.........my cycle was test e for 14 weeks
+ tren e for 10 weeks..........

I dont see how you arrived at this conclusion? you did HCG during ur cycle this time and feel great during PCT and you arent gonna do it again? or did i read that wrong?

**tuppy55** · 09-05-2011, 03:08 PM

Was my description on mixing correct? Thanks

**Lemonada8** · 09-05-2011, 03:31 PM

yes. you can store it in a syringe but only if its bacteriostatic water. that will prevent anything from growing in it. Or you can get a sealed sterile 5ml vial and mix it and store it in there inside a fridge.

**tuppy55** · 09-05-2011, 03:50 PM

Ok I get it thanks bro not looking on any cycle anytime soon trying to educate my self for when I do thanks

**tuppy55** · 09-05-2011, 03:51 PM

Double post sorry

**dirtyluke1** · 09-05-2011, 07:14 PM

ooopps typo meant to say i wont be doin another cycle without running HCG through out the entire thing ever again......lol

**Bulkn** · 09-05-2011, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by dirtyluke1

ooopps typo meant to say i wont be doin another cycle without running HCG through out the entire thing ever again......lol

You ran 250iu how many times a week?

**dirtyluke1** · 09-06-2011, 03:27 PM

250iu twice a week mon & thurs.....worked amazing that was my 1st time running it throughout

**Lemonada8** · 09-10-2011, 04:17 PM

Bump :-)

so vets, any comments?

**Lemonada8** · 09-11-2011, 11:27 AM

if its good enough quality, merge it with swiftos?

**Swifto** · 09-11-2011, 01:45 PM

I cant quote... Site is slow.

All good information.

I agree on the 72hours dose protocol.

Wasnt sure if you had seen my thread, but seeing your post you have done.

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...mportant-is-it

**Lemonada8** · 09-11-2011, 02:21 PM

^^ yea i didnt know you made one, untill today when it was bumped

**Swifto** · 09-11-2011, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by Lemonada8

^^ yea i didnt know you made one, untill today when it was bumped

Its got nearly 32,000 views, you have some catching up to do mate!

**gbrice75** · 09-11-2011, 04:14 PM

Good info L!

**cbr07** · 09-11-2011, 04:19 PM

nice post, very helpful

**Metalject** · 08-08-2012, 01:39 AM

Lemonada8, in response to our discussion in the other thread....I understand the benefits of HCG use while on cycle. My reason for typically advising against it is simply due to the body becoming dependent on it. If that happens, and it's not uncommon, once the cycle is over as well as the PCT process, the body won't produce any LH as it became dependent on the mimic created by HCG.

Now with moderate cycles that have a lot of space between them, some guys can get away with it. Larger cycles of a more frequent nature, I believe you can recover just fine from these types of cycles even when time off is less than time on. However, consistent HCG use while on cycle, I believe will make it more difficult.

I say this based on what I've seen over the years. I understand that there are many studies that promote strongly the use of HCG use during a cycle, but such studies often make assumptions that are not accurate to the real world. Prime example, I used AAS for more than a decade...on and off and used HCG in my cycles, normally around 300iu a couple times per wk. What was the end result? I'm on permanent TRT for the rest of my life, my body does not produce its own LH...I became reliant on HCG. Now I don't have any problem being on a TRT plan, it doesn't hinder my life in any way. But the HCG did have a negative effect, not a positive one in the long run.

**measuretwicecutonce** · 08-08-2012, 01:47 AM

mods can we get a sticky please? this is also not in educational forum

**panntastic** · 08-08-2012, 02:14 AM

Originally Posted by measuretwicecutonce

mods can we get a sticky please? this is also not in educational forum

There's already a hcg profile by swifto somewhere it's as good a read as this one

**Lemonada8** · 08-08-2012, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by Metalject

Lemonada8, in response to our discussion in the other thread....I understand the benefits of HCG use while on cycle. My reason for typically advising against it is simply due to the body becoming dependent on it. If that happens, and it's not uncommon, once the cycle is over as well as the PCT process, the body won't produce any LH as it became dependent on the mimic created by HCG.
Now with moderate cycles that have a lot of space between them, some guys can get away with it. Larger cycles of a more frequent nature, I believe you can recover just fine from these types of cycles even when time off is less than time on. However, consistent HCG use while on cycle, I believe will make it more difficult.
I say this based on what I've seen over the years. I understand that there are many studies that promote strongly the use of HCG use during a cycle, but such studies often make assumptions that are not accurate to the real world. Prime example, I used AAS for more than a decade...on and off and used HCG in my cycles, normally around 300iu a couple times per wk. What was the end result? I'm on permanent TRT for the rest of my life, my body does not produce its own LH...I became reliant on HCG. Now I don't have any problem being on a TRT plan, it doesn't hinder my life in any way. But the HCG did have a negative effect, not a positive one in the long run.

I dont think that the fact you are on TRT is due to using HCG on your cycle. I would say that it is due to using AAS and not the HCG. HCG is basically LH that is secreted by a preggo woman with the only difference is the life of the hormone.
heres why:
when u go on cycle, you have too high of test levels in your body which will inhibit LH production ( leaving FSH out of this). So the pituitary gland stops producing LH which then will lead to testicular atrophy due to the stoppage of production of ITT ( Intratesticular testosterone ). When ITT drops, the leydig cells and sertoli cells in the testes will atrophy and begin apoptosis (why older men arent fertile anymore, and have lower T levels). However, since you are still in a prime reproductive age when you came off cycle the hypothalamus and pituitary gland reacted to the drop of androgen levels in the body which it then tried to restart natural T production. And after a couple of cycles, the testes didnt react to LH anymore. Also, you said u used HCG at "300iu a couple times per week", well too much HCG can cause testicular insensitivity to LH, and increase the amount of LH that is biologically inactive. Without that strict usage, you could have easily caused a problem because of it, along with the AAS.

Here is a good article on using HCG during a cycle, and how it is beneficial.

Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression
Andrea D. Coviello, Alvin M. Matsumoto, William J. Bremner, Karen L. Herbst, John K. Amory,
Bradley D. Anawalt, Paul R. Sutton, William W. Wright, Terry R. Brown, Xiaohua Yan, Barry R. Zirkin,
and Jonathan P. Jarow
The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 90(5):2595–2602

There are many articles on using HCG in males for fertility and hormone production,

Did you get blood work before goin on TRT? How were ur LH levels? What was your PCT that you used? What kind of cycles did you do, and what compounds did you use?

HCG should be used for every cycle because it saves the testes from atrophying/apoptosizing and keeps ITT high which is necessary for them to survive. The testes are the slowest to come back after an AAS cycle. The pituitary and Hypothalamus are naturally the quickest to come back to normal production after an AAS cycle because they are only the regulators of synthesis but the testes are what actually produces the hormones. By keeping the testes still functioning and producing test, that helps the recovery that much because its mainly the pituitary and hypothalamus to return back to a balance, hence the use of SERMs to enhance the produciton and guide the pituitary to produce those gonadotropins back to normal levels.