Sust duration

**hsvcraig** · 10-14-2011, 05:31 PM

Hey guys I'm 5 weeks into my sust course n im just starting to notice it now. I'm doing 12 weeks does this mean once I finish my last injection at 12 weeks that I should get 5 more weeks of it still working in my system once I've finished that last injection? I've stacked it with 20mls of dbol a day and in the 5 weeks have put on 13 kilos so look forward to see how the sust goes. 89kgs to 102 all whilst still maintaining a six pack. Have done orals when training before but first time on the injection. Cheers guys

**redz** · 10-14-2011, 05:37 PM

Do you have a pct planned? You will crash roughly 3 weeks after last shot.

**hsvcraig** · 10-14-2011, 05:45 PM

I've got some clomid on hand have had a quick read on how to come off but forget exactly how much each day. What would you recommend?

**redz** · 10-14-2011, 05:49 PM

If possible it is better to run Clomid with Nolva for about 4 weeks starting 3 weeks after last sust shot. I run mine like this:

weeks 1-2 Clomid 50mg ED Nolva 40mg ED
weeks3-4 Clomid 25mg ED Nolva 20mg ED

Some people like higher doses with clomid but I find anything over 50mg gives alot of side effects.

**hsvcraig** · 10-15-2011, 02:14 AM

Side affects with clomid? Really? What sort of side affects?

**Bulkn** · 10-15-2011, 03:36 AM

Most people take clomid before bed to avoid side effects. I cant remember all of them but it makes some people emotional, I just get random dreams that feel quite real.

**MR10X** · 10-15-2011, 06:31 AM

How much sust were you using,one of the esters is a very long acting ester that will take a long time to get out of your system.You should probably use some HCG for PCTsince you going to be on for so long,your system will be much harder to get going again.My last PCT which i did after a longer cycle was HCG 500iu every other day using one bottle of 5000iu which was 10 shots and 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex daily for 4 weeks.Depending on how much Sust you used will effect when you start,probably 2 to 3 weeks after your last Sust shot.

**hankdiesel** · 10-15-2011, 06:42 AM

13 kilos? That is about 30lbs right? How can you gain that much weight in five weeks? That is outrageous. 18-21 days after your last injection start your pct. Your strength won't go down right away but you won't get 5 more weeks of feeling like the hulk either.

**Bulkn** · 10-15-2011, 07:42 AM

5 weeks, must be a shitload of water!!!

**hankdiesel** · 10-15-2011, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by Bulkn

5 weeks, must be a shitload of water!!!

Right. Of coarse it is. Fat and water is all it can be. His bp is probably through the roof.

**hsvcraig** · 10-16-2011, 01:53 PM

Thanks alot mr10x ill follow that im guessing i can get that from ar-r ? I do gain extremely fast n no bullshit it's actually up to 14 kilos after just checking. I've still managed to keep a 6 pack, dianabol tends to make my body just stack on the kgs n yeah no doubt alot is water n yeah a bit is definately fat

**dec11** · 10-16-2011, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by MR10X

How much sust were you using,one of the esters is a very long acting ester that will take a long time to get out of your system.You should probably use some HCG for PCTsince you going to be on for so long,your system will be much harder to get going again.My last PCT which i did after a longer cycle was HCG 500iu every other day using one bottle of 5000iu which was 10 shots and 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex daily for 4 weeks.Depending on how much Sust you used will effect when you start,probably 2 to 3 weeks after your last Sust shot.

OP, dont take advice like this, its wrong. 'probably' how does that constitute advice?!

the amount of sust used has absolutely no bearing on pct start times. start your pct 18 days after the last shot.

**hsvcraig** · 10-16-2011, 02:59 PM

So what would you recommend for a good pct cycle? I'm keen to start taking this anavar I have on hand, being less toxic do I still need to wait out the 4 week pct cycle then 12 weeks of nothing before I can consider the anavar, what would you do

**dec11** · 10-16-2011, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by hsvcraig;57***92

So what would you recommend for a good pct cycle? I'm keen to start taking this anavar I have on hand, being less toxic do I still need to wait out the 4 week pct cycle then 12 weeks of nothing before I can consider the anavar, what would you do

time off = time on + pct time unless bloodwork indicates otherwise.

clomid 50/50/50/50/50
nolva 20/20/20/20/20

**iforged05** · 10-16-2011, 03:28 PM

Agreed.

**hsvcraig** · 10-16-2011, 03:34 PM

Thanks mate. I was under the impression pct should only be 4 weeks but there your showing 5. It is 5 is it?

**MR10X** · 10-17-2011, 07:08 AM

Q: I have read that Clomid and Novadex are very similar products. Is this true? If so why would you need to take both?

A: The administration of antiestrogens is a common treatment because anti estrogens interfere with the normal negative feedback of sex steroids at hypothalamic and pituitary levels in order to increase endogenous gonadotropin-releasing hormone secretion from the hypothalamus and FSH and LH secretion directly from the pituitary. In turn, FSH and LH stimulate Leydig cells in the testes, and this has been claimed to lead to increased local testosterone production, thereby boosting spermatogenesis with a possible improvement in fertility. There may also be a direct effect of antiestrogens on testicular spermatogenesis or steroidogenesis.

Clomiphene is a synthetic derivative an estrogen. Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Tamoxifen is a pure estradiol receptor antagonist. Clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an antiestrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells to the action of GnRH. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as Clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors, tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. The estrogenic action of Clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.

Perusal of the literature thus indicates that clomiphene acts in several ways in the human male; (a) due to its similarity of structure to stilbesterol it binds with receptor sites in the hypothalamus and pituitary, (b) It stimulates gonadotrophin secretion by acting on the hypothalamo-hypophyseal system, (c) the inhibitory effects of high levels of circulating estrogens (produced under the influence of clomiphene) on hypothalamo-hypophyseal axis are possibly prevented by its potent antiestrogenic behaviour. The result of these varied effects of clomiphene is an overall increase in gonadotrophin and estrogen secretion and accounts for their increase under clinical conditions.

In one study the administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). Treatment of patients with “idiopathic” oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels.

Cochran database summary showed ten studies involving 738 men were included. Five of the trials did not specify method of randomization. Antiestrogens had a positive effect on endocrinal outcomes, such as serum testosterone levels . Antiestrogens appear to have a beneficial effect on endocrinal outcomes, but there is not enough evidence to evaluate the use of antiestrogens for increasing the fertility of males with idiopathic oligo-asthenospermia.

In the over one-thousand patients I have treated for HPTA normalization after AAS cessation i have used the combination of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. I have used clomiphene citrate alone in many cases. I added tamoxifen to the protocol to see if I could get a better clinical response. This seemed to be the case although I have not had the opportunity to evaluate the data. When both compounds are used the clomiphene citrate is discontinued first and the tamoxifen is continued for 2 more weeks. as I stated in the post on hCG injections it is imperative to be tested while on the medications. thus one would be tested ~3-5 days before the tamoxifen expires. In the 1st stage described in the hCG post one tests for testosterone only. the serum T level determines whether or not the hCG is halted. In the typical situation the hCG is stopped and the CC & tamoxifen continued. the lab tests at the end of the oral meds is LH & T.

**hsvcraig** · 10-17-2011, 04:00 PM

Some parts were hard to follow but get the gist of it cheers that matey

**MR10X** · 10-17-2011, 04:20 PM

Heres some more read you might find useful...
Q: What’s the logic behind all the different timing and dosing of HCG ?? We hear taking it every day, every other day, every 3rd, 4th, or 5th day.

What about the dosing ? I hear to take it easy to prevent desensitizing the testes. With this you hear anywhere from 100 units to 250 units to play it safe. Others say anywhere from 500 to 2500 units at a time…Isn’t that a bit much ?

What about the length of time? I hear two clinics suggest 10 days; others say 3-5 weeks. Where does all this come from and who’s right?

A: Almost everything you hear or read will be anecdotal and therefore subject to no verification. Experiences with hCG while on TRT are posted. The use of hCG for PCT is only partly related to its use on TRT.

hCG while on TRT is used for two reasons. One reason is cosmetic. While on TRT it is not unusual and more often expected to have testicular atrophy. This is variable from individual to individual. The other reason is to act as a stimulus so the testicles do not shut down and therefore will be easier to initiate independent function after AAS cessation.

Desensitization is a potential problem with hCG. I do not think you will experience it with doses of 500IU or less 3X/week. Studies have used this dose for considerably long periods. In my patients when hCG was used while on AAS the dose was 1000IU every 3 days with one month on hCG followed by one month off hCG.

hCG for PCT involves additional concepts. This is the timing of hCG in relation to other medications for return of HPTA functionality. Under normal conditions the HPTA is a tightly coupled dynamic feedback loop. It is this coupling that has to be achieved after AAS cessation to return to normal. The analogy I use is the starting of a car by pushing it from behind. Alone the care will not start but with pushing the clutch can be popped and the car started.

After AAS cessation the secretion of LH is nil. It will not be able to initiate T production until a certain stimulus LH level is reached. Studies have shown that the time for this to occur can be lengthy. Thus the idea is to ‘push’ the testicles with hCG and get them started. Once T production is initiated the dependent variable is LH. If the hCG is withdrawn without adequate LH to couple with the testicles return of HPTA functionality will fail.

The increased production of LH is achieved by a dual action of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen . Clomiphene is a mixed agonist/antagonist (SERM) at the estradiol receptor. Clomiphene will increase the secretion of LH by action at the hypothalamo-pituitary area. Clomiphene will cause an increase in LH and secondarily increases in T and estradiol. Estradiol has a negative feedback influence on the HPTA. Estradiol is 200X the inhibitory effect of T per molar basis. Normal serum levels are the following:

Testosterone : 3-10 ng/ml (10-35 nM/L)

Estradiol: 15-65 pg/ml (55-240 pmol/L)

Tamoxifen will counteract the effect of the estradiol. Once the hCG is withdrawn the LH, initiated by clomiphene and tamoxifen, will couple with the testicles and take over production of T by the testicles. The levels of LH to maintain and couple with the testicles are maintained by clomiphene and tamoxifen. Clomiphene is continued for 15 days while Tamoxifen is continued for 30 days.

In healthy adult men, circulating levels of testosterone have a distinct pattern, with increasing levels during sleep toward a maximum around the time of awakening and a decrease during the day. In PCT hCG is administered every other day. I suggest the same time each injection in an attempt to simulate this rhythm. This is purely empirical but I recommend hCG at bedtime (2200). Clomiphene is taken in divided doses of 50mg 2X/day.

– Michael Scally

**gixxerboy1** · 10-17-2011, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by hsvcraig;57***92

So what would you recommend for a good pct cycle? I'm keen to start taking this anavar I have on hand, being less toxic do I still need to wait out the 4 week pct cycle then 12 weeks of nothing before I can consider the anavar, what would you do

Its not a matter of things being toxic. It about letting your system returning to normal and function again before being shut down again on another cycle