Why do so many people talk about PCT with anavar?

[boxingfan30]

I was under the impression that it was not needed with this? Does it just depend on the dose?

I also was wondering... if I took 20 mg's of this daily simply for cutting.. how would it do?

My current stats are 12-14% bf at roughly 1700 calories a day. I do cardio 6 days a week also. Just want to cut that extra 4-6% bf off. I'm ok if it takes 8 weeks or so. I want to go easy on my liver.

[dec11]

what is your age?

20mgs wont do much if anything

[boxingfan30]

I'm 33 ... I had read some studies conducted that had said that 20 mg's help some men lose quite a bit of fat from it?

[boxingfan30]

I can dig it up if you give me a min

[DanB]

you wont cut 4-6% b/f from running 8 weeks of var at 20mg and at 20mgs most people will tell you it will have little to no effect,you need to run pct for normal cycles of var because it shuts you down.if your sure that your cal intake is in fact 1700 then hiit cardio should work quite well for you. make sure your getting sufficient protein in your diet also best of luck

[boxingfan30]

Early in the 21st century American endocrinologists, financed partly by the government and partly by oxandrolone manufacturer Savient, studied the effects of modest doses of oxandrolone on elderly men. The researchers wanted to establish how effective and safe oxandrolone really is. Although the study involved non-active men who were above 60, it did produce information that is interesting for chemical athletes.

The study showed that men gain muscle mass and lose fat mass if they take oxandrolone for 12 weeks, but also that 12 weeks further on the muscles built up have disappeared again. But the fat that was lost stays away. Most of the benefit of a course of oxandrolone is derived in the first six weeks of the course. So the researchers are in favour of short six-week courses of oxandrolone.

The study that is the subject of this article looks in more depth at the value of oxandrolone as a slimming aid. The men lost 1.8 kg fat during a 12-week course of oxandrolone, where the daily dose was 20 mg.

VAT = abdominal fat; SAT = subcutaneous fat; P thigh = fat on the hips; D thigh = fat on the upper legs, above the knee; P IMF = intramuscular fat in the trunk; D IMF = intramuscular fat in the arm and leg muscles.

http://www.ergo-log.com/plaatjes/oxfatloss.gif

http://www.ergo-log.com/plaatjes/oxfatloss2.gif

The table below shows how much of the fat had returned 12 weeks after the oxandrolone course had finished: less than 17 percent. That means that 83 percent of the weight lost stayed off.

http://www.ergo-log.com/plaatjes/oxfatloss3.gif

So maybe oxandrolone has more potential as a diet drug than as a muscle builder, the researchers sigh [forgetting that a 2-kg fat loss over a 12 week period is perfectly possible without taking steroids].

The more fat the men had lost, the lower their insulin level before a meal. This is a positive sign. A low pre-meal insulin level means that you are sensitive to insulin, and is associated with fewer inflammatory processes.

http://www.ergo-log.com/plaatjes/oxfatloss4.gif

Ten years earlier endocrinologists discovered that a modest dose of oxandrolone reduces fat mass in men over 40, while men given a low dose of testosterone-enanthate build up more fat. [Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1995 Sep;19(9):614-24.]

Source:
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Oct; 89(10): 4863-72.

[boxingfan30]

you wont cut 4-6% b/f from running 8 weeks of var at 20mg and at 20mgs most people will tell you it will have little to no effect,you need to run pct for normal cycles of var because it shuts you down.if your sure that your cal intake is in fact 1700 then hiit cardio should work quite well for you. make sure your getting sufficient protein in your diet also best of luck

Yeah, I always try to get no less than 1 g per lb of bodyweight.

[boxingfan30]

The stuff is sooooo expensive to run much though! I'm not even sure about some of the sources i've found... they all look a little I guess phony, or the prices seem a little to good to be true.

[DanB]

studys and real world are two diff things personally ive never even heard of any1 running var that low

[DanB]

stick with cardio you should lose the fat with a lil hard work on threadmill, var aint easy way out unfortunately . . . . and i recently learned(again) that when prices seem too good to be true they usually are so be very weary

[boxingfan30]

stick with cardio you should lose the fat with a lil hard work on threadmill, var aint easy way out unfortunately . . . . and i recently learned(again) that when prices seem too good to be true they usually are so be very weary

exactly my thought on the pricing. The frustrating part of my fat loss is that it's not really that much to lose, but how very slowly it's coming off.

I am due for shoulder surgery when I get all of my other medical issues straightened out and when I can be out of commission for 4 or 6 months. Now I am trying to get my fat mass down as much as possible so that when I won't be able to do much at all I can keep my diet straight and not gain much more fat.

All I can do right now is bi's tri's, the elliptical and some ab work. No pressing motions... no pull ups.. it SUCKS!

The only thing however, that is encouraging is that my Fiancee' says my legs and arms have grown. I think my arms are coming back to the point where they were while my legs actually are bigger since I never worked them. I'm doing the wrong thing by going by the scale I know, but it's annoying either way and seeing studies showing that Var helps to burn abdominal fat as well as (so i've read before but I don't know for sure) that it can help with joint pain makes it attractive to want to try a mild dose.

[guitario]

Surely running 20mg var would offset catabolic effects of a low calorie diet? Especially with a 9 hour half life.

[Times Roman]

studys and real world are two diff things personally ive never even heard of any1 running var that low

I have. Some docs will prescribe it to their AIDS patients to help prevent them from "wasting" away.

In fact, AIDS patients have access to AAS for this very reason, to prevent wasting.

[DanB]

I have. Some docs will prescribe it to their AIDS patients to help prevent them from "wasting" away.

In fact, AIDS patients have access to AAS for this very reason, to prevent wasting.

ur right and ive also read about kids with growth problems on 10mg a day but i was speaking in the context of dosage to run a cycle

[boxingfan30]

I understand that running a low dose isn't going to do much for strength nor mass gains... it's not known for much mass gain at all anyway though. Like I said it would simply be for cutting that little bit of extra bf% that i'd like to get off. It also supposedly has the ability to keep the fat off for long periods of time... obviously with a good diet of course.

[redz]

20mg is a womans dose it will do virtually nothing better to take eca.

[boxingfan30]

20mg is a womans dose it will do virtually nothing better to take eca.

I have to respectfully disagree... if nothing else people who take ECA stack gets the jitters and results in muscle wasting.

[Doctapeppa]

I have to respectfully disagree... if nothing else people who take ECA stack gets the jitters and results in muscle wasting.

No way. ECA increases fat burning without muscle wasting, actually it can help prevent it. There is plenty of research that proves it.


Here's one:

Title: Safety and efficacy of long-term treatment with ephedrine, caffeine and an ephedrine/caffeine mixture.

Author: Toubro S; Astrup AV; Breum L; Quaade F
Source: Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord, 17 Suppl 1():S69-72 1993 Feb

Abstract
In a randomized, placebo-controlled, double blind study, 180 obese patients were treated by diet (4.2 MJ/day) and either an ephedrine/caffeine combination (20mg/200mg), ephedrine (20mg), caffeine (200mg) or placebo 3 times a day for 24 weeks. 141 patients completed this part of the study. All medication was stopped between week 24-26 in order to catch any withdrawal symptoms. From week 26 to 50, 99 patients completed treatment with the ephedrine/caffeine compound in an open trial design, resulting in a statistically significant (p = 0.02) weight loss of 1.1kg. In another randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled 8 week study on obese subjects we found the mentioned compound showed lean body mass conserving properties. We conclude that the ephedrine/caffeine combination is effective in improving and maintaining weight loss, further it has lean body mass saving properties. The side effects are minor and transient and no withdrawal symptoms have been found.

Here's another:

Title: The acute and chronic effects of ephedrine/caffeine mixtures on energy expenditure and glucose metabolism in humans.

Author: Toubro S; Astrup A; Breum L; Quaade F
Source: Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord, 17 Suppl 3():S73-7; discussion S82 1993 Dec

Abstract
This paper describes a 24-week open follow-up trial with reduced obese patients all receiving an ephedrine/caffeine combination (20 mg/200 mg) three times a day. The study was a continuation of a previous 24-week double-blind placebo-controlled study where the ephedrine/caffeine mixture had shown superior weight-reducing properties when compared with either ephedrine alone (20 mg) or caffeine alone (200 mg) three times a day. The medication was stopped between weeks 24-26 in order to evaluate withdrawal symptoms. The follow-up period was from weeks 26 to 50. Of 127 patients included, 99 completed the follow-up treatment, which resulted in an additional weight loss of 1.1 kg (P = 0.02). Adverse drug reactions were all minor and temporary. We conclude that the ephedrine/caffeine combination is safe and effective in long-term treatment in improving and maintaining weight loss. The side-effects are minor and transient and no clinically relevant withdrawal symptoms have been observed.

[boxingfan30]

I myself couldn't stay on it... it gave me the jitters WAY to much ... and it's still possible to gain strength on the Var as well. I'd take it before the ECA... but to each their own.

[dec11]

I have to respectfully disagree... if nothing else people who take ECA stack gets the jitters and results in muscle wasting.

im afrais he is right mate, it is a womans dose. if you take var stand alone, you're looking at 60mg bare min for half decent results. i did 40mg once and barely noticed anything, if i were to do it again it would be 80mgs

[boxingfan30]

im afrais he is right mate, it is a womans dose. if you take var stand alone, you're looking at 60mg bare min for half decent results. i did 40mg once and barely noticed anything, if i were to do it again it would be 80mgs

ahhh, to hard on the liver at that dose it would seem... only from what i've read at least.

[boxingfan30]

not to mention expense!

[dec11]

ahhh, to hard on the liver at that dose it would seem... only from what i've read at least.

liver toxicity is way over stated mate, just be sensible and take a liver support supp. you'd need to be banging in big doses for an extended period to do serious damage.

yeah, expense is unfortunately quite high with var

[boxingfan30]

liver toxicity is way over stated mate, just be sensible and take a liver support supp. you'd need to be banging in big doses for an extended period to do serious damage.

yeah, expense is unfortunately quite high with var

Well thanks for the info anyway... really I was just curious why people use a PCT because so many sites and such claim that it's not needed. Perhaps that's just simply on a smaller dose basis.

So for 165 lbs (probably 150-155 LMB) is 40 a dose I might find useful? It just sucks... i've been doing cardio 45 minutes 2 days and 30 minutes the other 4 for 2 months or so now and i've seen some changes, but this chest, ab and lower back fat is just gross to me. I want it GONE!

[dec11]

Well thanks for the info anyway... really I was just curious why people use a PCT because so many sites and such claim that it's not needed. Perhaps that's just simply on a smaller dose basis.

So for 165 lbs (probably 150-155 LMB) is 40 a dose I might find useful? It just sucks... i've been doing cardio 45 minutes 2 days and 30 minutes the other 4 for 2 months or so now and i've seen some changes, but this chest, ab and lower back fat is just gross to me. I want it GONE!

switch that cardio up to 1hr sessions. what time of day you doing it and at what tempo?

all AAS require PCT

[boxingfan30]

Time of day is basically when I can do it. I have tried on an empty stomach when I wake up, but man I get the shakes so bad, I just can't do it. As far as pace... the tempo would be moderate... not to much, like i've read... I try to get out of breath enough that it's difficult to have a conversation, but not to much higher.

[boxingfan30]

so i'd grow a pair of tits even with anavar huh? lol... that sucks. Is PCT expensive if I decided to go that route later?

[dec11]

so i'd grow a pair of tits even with anavar huh? lol... that sucks. Is PCT expensive if I decided to go that route later?

PCT isnt for gyno mate, its to help the natty system get back to normal after a cycle. i think you'd best do a bit of researching so as you know all the in's and out's

[boxingfan30]

yeah I know... I was joking about the tits part... but yeah I didn't know it would shut the system down so much.

[ghettoboyd]

yeah I know... I was joking about the tits part... but yeah I didn't know it would shut the system down so much.

you will at least experiance some degree of suppresion...

[Pac Man]

you will at least experiance some degree of suppresion...

Agreed. I ran this at 50mg ED for 30 days to see how my body would react. I did experience some shut down and did run a standard PCT. For this reason I say Anavar is not good for bridging for that I would use peptides. Anavar is a great steroid though, probably one of my favorites for hardness. If it wasn't so damn hard on your lipids I would run it every cycle.

[boxingfan30]

Agreed. I ran this at 50mg ED for 30 days to see how my body would react. I did experience some shut down and did run a standard PCT. For this reason I say Anavar is not good for bridging for that I would use peptides. Anavar is a great steroid though, probably one of my favorites for hardness. If it wasn't so damn hard on your lipids I would run it every cycle.

Did you notice much fat loss during the 30 days?

[formerly]

I did 5 weeks anavar at 30mgs/day. I was 181 and went down to 172. Lost about 9lbs and I was very happy with it. No sides at all and didnt do any pct. I'm 42 =)

Tho, I did go from 2x/week training to 5-6x/week training (mostly judo and boxing) so that might have been the fat loss but felt my recovery was awesome.

I do plan to do another cycle in about 2 or 3 weeks. Which would make it 5-6 weeks since stopping.

My bodyfat % scale is furked up but as far as body composition I am very happy with it.

[gixxerboy1]

that study you posted is in people over 60., it isnt really relevent

[boxingfan30]

Yes, it was in older people... so one would think that in a younger and much more active person that the fat loss would be even more so. I wanted a possible low dose simply to aid in fat loss and keeping muscle and strength. I don't mind doing to work to lose the fat... a little help is ok though.

[gixxerboy1]

Yes, it was in older people... so one would think that in a younger and much more active person that the fat loss would be even more so. I wanted a possible low dose simply to aid in fat loss and keeping muscle and strength. I don't mind doing to work to lose the fat... a little help is ok though.

No it think it would be less. You still have your natural hormones working. over 60 men dont have much. Just like if you took 100mg of test a week. Your not going to notice anything. Give it to someone with a deficiency they will notice alot

[dec11]

I did 5 weeks anavar at 30mgs/day. I was 181 and went down to 172. Lost about 9lbs and I was very happy with it. No sides at all and didnt do any pct. I'm 42 =)

Tho, I did go from 2x/week training to 5-6x/week training (mostly judo and boxing) so that might have been the fat loss but felt my recovery was awesome.

I do plan to do another cycle in about 2 or 3 weeks. Which would make it 5-6 weeks since stopping.

My bodyfat % scale is furked up but as far as body composition I am very happy with it.

this isnt recommended though

[boxingfan30]

is there such a thing as backing the dose off slowly and not having to use any PCT? Maybe 50, and then 30 for a few days and 20, etc.? Or does that just not work that way?

[guitario]

There will be less of a rebound but while there is exogenous androgens in the system, your body will still be suppressed. You'll be bridging in effect. You are either on or off, you can't be half on.

[boxingfan30]

oh I see, that makes sense then... all or nothing type of thing.