Just a couple questions for the pros about a test E cycle

[DeadlyD]

My question is, on a 10 week test E only cycle can you front load one or two weeks of test prop at the start while waiting for the test E to kick in? And if so what dose ED would be sufficient ? Test E would be 500mgs EW, 250mgs Monday 250mgs Thursday, arimadex through the whole cycle? If so how often and at what dose? I have 1mg tabs! Thanks for your help

[The Bear 79]

WTF dude?!?! Didn't we just go through this? Didn't u decide 2 get ur BF% & diet tuned in b4 u cycle?????............http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...t-cycle-please.

[DeadlyD]

Ya we did! And I am ! I'm trying to learn as much about this subject as I can, so when I'm ready to cycle I will feel more comfortable with my knowledge. That's what this site is for right? Learning? I respect all of your advise and I listen to it, I have all the gear for this cycle, but I will wait to start all I'm asking for is the best info I can get before I start it!

[auslifta]

Have you had your diet sorted yet? Because the one in the link bear just put up sucked tbh. How's your cardio going if any?

Kick starting with test prop is fine.

[stpete]

Why not just run prop? Questions like these always intriges me.....

[DeadlyD]

Have you had your diet sorted yet? Because the one in the link bear just put up sucked tbh. How's your cardio going if any?

Kick starting with test prop is fine.

I could use some diet advise! I'm open to any suggestions!! And my cardio is good 3 days a week 20-40+ mins a day

[The Bear 79]

I could use some diet advise! I'm open to any suggestions!! And my cardio is good 3 days a week 20-40+ mins a day

Well I told where u can find the nutrition / diet section, & I told u they would b mor than happy 2 help u if u posted ur diet & goals 4 them. I wanna help ya bro, but it seems like were just spinning our wheels here. If ur serious bout wanting diet help.....................then act, don't just say. I'll make it easier 4 ya, here's the link 2 the diet section........................http://forums.steroid.com/forumdispl...RESOURCE-FORUM

[auslifta]

If you're trying to lose fat I'd recommend 8 1 hour sessions a week. 1hour low intensity after weights, and 3 1hr sessions on empty stomach(apart from BCAA's) every morning apon waking. As for the diet http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...g#.TudTaWPhdGU read this over and over until you know every aspect. Set out your own diet after for review.

[jasc]

Adex @ .5mg eod is a good dose to start with n adjust accordingly

[choker28]

If you're trying to lose fat I'd recommend 8 1 hour sessions a week. 1hour low intensity after weights, and 3 1hr sessions on empty stomach(apart from BCAA's) every morning apon waking. As for the diet http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...g#.TudTaWPhdGU read this over and over until you know every aspect. Set out your own diet after for review.

wow this id the worst advice ive ever seen for fat loss.Doing cardio on a empty stomach is not a good idea. The body will not utilize only fat. We all know that Carbs are the main source of energy. What most people do not know is that our body needs carbs to allow us to utilize fats for energy. If carbs are not present, then the fat will not be utilized and protein will. Protein is not a good source of energy and the protein will be pulled from the muscles which in return will cause atrophy(decrease in size of muscle).

bottom line: It is basic biochemistry. The majority of energy is "released" (actually moved from carbohydrate backbones to ATP high energy bonds) in the Kreb's cycle (aka tricarboxylic acid cycle).

During relative inactivity, there are not many Kreb's intermediates. For carbohydrate and fat, the primary entry point into Kreb's is acetyl-CoA. But it can only enter if there are enough Kreb's intermediates.

As you begin to exercise Kreb's intermediates build up via what are called "anaplerotic paths." More intermediates allows more acetyl-CoA to enter the cycle. The most common anaplerotic path is pyruvate -> oxaloacetate. The major source of pyruvate is glycolysis (burning carbohydrate). There are also anaplerotic paths from amino acids. There are *no* anaplerotic paths from fatty acids.

This is what is meant by "fat burns in a carbohydrate flame." It is not dogma. It is very well understood and very well studied.

[auslifta]

I used to believe that crap too. Until I used real world results. There are many energy sources your body uses before breaking down your muscle tissue for energy. Read.....
Per Chris Aceto

Cardio is a good fat burner. However, cardio can be a great fat burner if we look for ways to maximize the amount of body fat burned during cardio sessions. One of the easiest ways to encourage maximal fat burning is to do your cardio in the morning on a completely empty stomach, soon after rising and before eating. The reason is simple, in a “fasting” state (Ex. not having eaten for probably close to 10 hours), glucose – the basic energy component found on carbohydrates – circulates within the bloodstream at its lowest levels of the day. When this occurs, the body is more likely to turn to stored fuel – body fat – as energy. Upon the introduction of cardio, the body begins to look for fuel. If there are no significant amounts of glucose, the body responds by immediately digging into body fat stores for energy. Bingo.

The body will not utilize deep fat stores for energy during cardio if you have eaten before performing cardio. Instead, it will first take a look at what has recently been ingested – what you have eaten – and try to use that first before starting to utilize stores of body fat. Even a small meal, or a small carbohydrate snack, can inhibit fat burning by slowing the rate at which your body begins its search for stored body fat. Carbohydrates quickly digest into glucose, which alters the speed at which the body burns fat. In essence, food consumed before cardio exercise acts as a slowing agent, altering the body’s ability to burn body fat. On the other hand, with no food, there is no slowing effect and the body can quickly start burning body fat. Glucose, the digested form of carbohydrates, plays a big role in determining your fat burning status. With low levels, fat burning increases. With high levels of glucose, fat burning dramatically slows. To ensure you are burning as much body fat as possible, schedule your aerobic sessions in the morning, without food, to keep glucose levels flat.

The second reason to avoid eating before cardio exercise has to do with our pesky little friends, hormones. With a lack of food in the body, the prevailing hormones that kick into play immediately upon aerobic exercise are catecholamines and glucagon (try saying that five times fast). Catecholamines are tiny messengers released from the adrenal glands that are dumped into the blood with exercise. Their job is to target fat cells, helping them to open up, allowing fat to be liberated and burned as fuel. However, when you eat food, specifically carbohydrates, catecholamines become less effective at doing what you want them to do – help breakdown body fat. Glucagon is the second fat burning stimulus that increases upon exercise, especially when there is a lack of food in the body. Glucagon is a major player in fat burning as it helps kick start the entire fat burning process. Glucagon helps tear down fat cells and upgrade the enzymes that use body fat as energy. Specifically, glucagon supports the production of hormone sensitive lipase, (HSL) a gatekeeper on fat cells that helps determine the flow of fat. When HSL is active, it allows more fatty acids from body fat to flow into the blood where they can be burned as fuel. On the other hand, when HSL falls, the flow of fatty acids out of fat cells becomes greatly impaired. In addition, glucagon suppresses the activity of Malonyl CoA and supports Carnitine Palmityl Transferase 1 (CPT-1). Malonyl CoA influences the liver’s ability to start the fat building or fat storing process. As Malonyl CoA activity rises, fat storage increases and as it drops – by avoiding food before cardio- fat burning increases. CPT-1 is another enzyme that supports the burning of body fat by dragging fatty acids –from body fat – into muscle cells, where they are burned. When you avoid eating before cardio and allow the maximum production of glucagon, you’ll experience greater CPT-1 activity which facilitates the burning of body fat. On the other hand, when you eat before cardio, all these mechanisms are compromised; less potent catecholamine activity with negligible glucagon production translating into less active fat burning.

Another point on eating before cardio is that food, especially carbohydrates, increase insulin levels. Generally, insulin is known as a fat storing hormone . It makes catecholamines less effective at triggering the breakdown of body fat and it also suppresses the release of glucagon. Remember, our little friend glucagon is the chief hormone that sets in place fat burning and support (Glucagon sounds like a Transformer). Surprisingly, it does not take a lot of food to increase insulin levels and to block the maximal fat burning effects of aerobic exercise. Even a small piece of toast is enough in to trigger sufficient insulin production to set in motion a hormonal change to mildly interrupt or slow the fat burning effects of a hard 30-40 minute cardio session. In the world of maximizing fat loss, it’s just not a good idea to eat before cardio.

A lot of bodybuilders argue adding cardio to the end of a weight training session will exert the same effect as doing cardio in the morning on an empty stomach. The idea: weight training depletes the body of sugar in the blood, (glucose) which is akin to a fasting state. In other words, the hard training empties fuel from the bloodstream and when this occurs, it’s a great time to do cardio. They’re half right. Hardcore training does burn through glucose in the blood and it even lowers muscle glycogen stores. Both can favor the burning of body fat. If you jump on the treadmill after training, you might expect catecholamines, already floating about as a result of training, to target fat cells. In addition, with low glucose levels, you might also expect glucagon levels to be elevated. These two points can be considered true. However, the problem is duration. When training sessions become too long – be it cardio or weight training, catabolism (muscle breakdown!) sets in. Cortisol – a hormone that causes muscle breakdown – can rise too high as a result. When cardio is done after a weight training session, cortisol – one of the chief muscle wasting hormones – rises to unreasonable levels. Studies have shown cortisol to lower testosterone levels and trigger a rapid spike in free radicals. Free radicals ignite muscle inflammation, thereby knocking out the immune system and paralyzing muscle recovery. When you follow up your weight training sessions with cardio, you push the body over the edge into a quasi overtraining state. In this state, hormones like testosterone and other anabolic hormones in the body decline. As a result, it becomes very difficult to retain muscle mass.

Testosterone levels . They are the other reason that I am a huge “cardio in the morning advocate. Some studies indicate testosterone levels are higher in the morning and decline from there, only to experience a late afternoon surge. Doing cardio in the morning makes sense as it is scheduled at a time where one of the most anabolic hormones – testosterone – is at its peak. The higher testosterone level can act as an anti-catabolic, preserving muscle mass. By definition, aerobics is a potentially catabolic event. It does not “build the body up” but rather “tears it down.” We always hope that we are tearing down body fat to be used as fuel. Still, with a poor nutrition strategy or if you are borderline overtrained, aerobics can become truly catabolic. It can lower testosterone levels causing a loss of metabolic supporting muscle mass! Having a hormonal profile that is higher in testosterone levels will help spare the body from eating away at its own muscle. Crushing your cardio in the morning is the best way to ensure you can burn fat without sacrificing muscle mass.

[JohnnyVegas]

If you're trying to lose fat I'd recommend 8 1 hour sessions a week. 1hour low intensity after weights, and 3 1hr sessions on empty stomach(apart from BCAA's) every morning apon waking. As for the diet http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...g#.TudTaWPhdGU read this over and over until you know every aspect. Set out your own diet after for review.

Damn it man...I have been trying to get up to five or six one-hour sessions per week. Shooting for eventually doing one hour a day. Now I need to do EIGHT?

[auslifta]

Damn it man...I have been trying to get up to five or six one-hour sessions per week. Shooting for eventually doing one hour a day. Now I need to do EIGHT?

6 is great, 8 is what I do, and it seems to work great. Was trying to get across to the OP that 2-3 times 20to40mins cardio sessions per week is not "good" cardio for fat loss. Muscle waste on cardio is over hyped broscience.

[Knockout_Power]

not that Im in the condition now to prove it, but hours of cardio are over rated for fat loss unless you are doing the final cut for stage prep. I dont have the best genetics, but I found 10% was easy to attain with proper diet and 3 half hour session of work on the punching bag (I hate treadmills and bike etc)

I know this is contrairy to what people will say, but it seemed to work for me and the people that trained alongside me. Seems to drop a reasonable amount of fat in a safe amount of time.

IMO, empty stomach cardio just for the sake of fatloss is a bad idea... training to get your body to be reliable under stress is a different matter.

[dec11]

I used to believe that crap too. Until I used real world results. There are many energy sources your body uses before breaking down your muscle tissue for energy. Read.....
Per Chris Aceto

Cardio is a good fat burner. However, cardio can be a great fat burner if we look for ways to maximize the amount of body fat burned during cardio sessions. One of the easiest ways to encourage maximal fat burning is to do your cardio in the morning on a completely empty stomach, soon after rising and before eating. The reason is simple, in a “fasting” state (Ex. not having eaten for probably close to 10 hours), glucose – the basic energy component found on carbohydrates – circulates within the bloodstream at its lowest levels of the day. When this occurs, the body is more likely to turn to stored fuel – body fat – as energy. Upon the introduction of cardio, the body begins to look for fuel. If there are no significant amounts of glucose, the body responds by immediately digging into body fat stores for energy. Bingo.

The body will not utilize deep fat stores for energy during cardio if you have eaten before performing cardio. Instead, it will first take a look at what has recently been ingested – what you have eaten – and try to use that first before starting to utilize stores of body fat. Even a small meal, or a small carbohydrate snack, can inhibit fat burning by slowing the rate at which your body begins its search for stored body fat. Carbohydrates quickly digest into glucose, which alters the speed at which the body burns fat. In essence, food consumed before cardio exercise acts as a slowing agent, altering the body’s ability to burn body fat. On the other hand, with no food, there is no slowing effect and the body can quickly start burning body fat. Glucose, the digested form of carbohydrates, plays a big role in determining your fat burning status. With low levels, fat burning increases. With high levels of glucose, fat burning dramatically slows. To ensure you are burning as much body fat as possible, schedule your aerobic sessions in the morning, without food, to keep glucose levels flat.

The second reason to avoid eating before cardio exercise has to do with our pesky little friends, hormones. With a lack of food in the body, the prevailing hormones that kick into play immediately upon aerobic exercise are catecholamines and glucagon (try saying that five times fast). Catecholamines are tiny messengers released from the adrenal glands that are dumped into the blood with exercise. Their job is to target fat cells, helping them to open up, allowing fat to be liberated and burned as fuel. However, when you eat food, specifically carbohydrates, catecholamines become less effective at doing what you want them to do – help breakdown body fat. Glucagon is the second fat burning stimulus that increases upon exercise, especially when there is a lack of food in the body. Glucagon is a major player in fat burning as it helps kick start the entire fat burning process. Glucagon helps tear down fat cells and upgrade the enzymes that use body fat as energy. Specifically, glucagon supports the production of hormone sensitive lipase, (HSL) a gatekeeper on fat cells that helps determine the flow of fat. When HSL is active, it allows more fatty acids from body fat to flow into the blood where they can be burned as fuel. On the other hand, when HSL falls, the flow of fatty acids out of fat cells becomes greatly impaired. In addition, glucagon suppresses the activity of Malonyl CoA and supports Carnitine Palmityl Transferase 1 (CPT-1). Malonyl CoA influences the liver’s ability to start the fat building or fat storing process. As Malonyl CoA activity rises, fat storage increases and as it drops – by avoiding food before cardio- fat burning increases. CPT-1 is another enzyme that supports the burning of body fat by dragging fatty acids –from body fat – into muscle cells, where they are burned. When you avoid eating before cardio and allow the maximum production of glucagon, you’ll experience greater CPT-1 activity which facilitates the burning of body fat. On the other hand, when you eat before cardio, all these mechanisms are compromised; less potent catecholamine activity with negligible glucagon production translating into less active fat burning.

Another point on eating before cardio is that food, especially carbohydrates, increase insulin levels. Generally, insulin is known as a fat storing hormone . It makes catecholamines less effective at triggering the breakdown of body fat and it also suppresses the release of glucagon. Remember, our little friend glucagon is the chief hormone that sets in place fat burning and support (Glucagon sounds like a Transformer). Surprisingly, it does not take a lot of food to increase insulin levels and to block the maximal fat burning effects of aerobic exercise. Even a small piece of toast is enough in to trigger sufficient insulin production to set in motion a hormonal change to mildly interrupt or slow the fat burning effects of a hard 30-40 minute cardio session. In the world of maximizing fat loss, it’s just not a good idea to eat before cardio.

A lot of bodybuilders argue adding cardio to the end of a weight training session will exert the same effect as doing cardio in the morning on an empty stomach. The idea: weight training depletes the body of sugar in the blood, (glucose) which is akin to a fasting state. In other words, the hard training empties fuel from the bloodstream and when this occurs, it’s a great time to do cardio. They’re half right. Hardcore training does burn through glucose in the blood and it even lowers muscle glycogen stores. Both can favor the burning of body fat. If you jump on the treadmill after training, you might expect catecholamines, already floating about as a result of training, to target fat cells. In addition, with low glucose levels, you might also expect glucagon levels to be elevated. These two points can be considered true. However, the problem is duration. When training sessions become too long – be it cardio or weight training, catabolism (muscle breakdown!) sets in. Cortisol – a hormone that causes muscle breakdown – can rise too high as a result. When cardio is done after a weight training session, cortisol – one of the chief muscle wasting hormones – rises to unreasonable levels. Studies have shown cortisol to lower testosterone levels and trigger a rapid spike in free radicals. Free radicals ignite muscle inflammation, thereby knocking out the immune system and paralyzing muscle recovery. When you follow up your weight training sessions with cardio, you push the body over the edge into a quasi overtraining state. In this state, hormones like testosterone and other anabolic hormones in the body decline. As a result, it becomes very difficult to retain muscle mass.

Testosterone levels . They are the other reason that I am a huge “cardio in the morning advocate. Some studies indicate testosterone levels are higher in the morning and decline from there, only to experience a late afternoon surge. Doing cardio in the morning makes sense as it is scheduled at a time where one of the most anabolic hormones – testosterone – is at its peak. The higher testosterone level can act as an anti-catabolic, preserving muscle mass. By definition, aerobics is a potentially catabolic event. It does not “build the body up” but rather “tears it down.” We always hope that we are tearing down body fat to be used as fuel. Still, with a poor nutrition strategy or if you are borderline overtrained, aerobics can become truly catabolic. It can lower testosterone levels causing a loss of metabolic supporting muscle mass! Having a hormonal profile that is higher in testosterone levels will help spare the body from eating away at its own muscle. Crushing your cardio in the morning is the best way to ensure you can burn fat without sacrificing muscle mass.

nice one Aus, i too wish ppl would stop fretting about muscle loss, it doesnt happen that easily and you need to be in shit street for your body to turn to muscle for fuel ie, starving

[BigBadWolf]

I used to believe that crap too. Until I used real world results. There are many energy sources your body uses before breaking down your muscle tissue for energy. Read.....
Per Chris Aceto

Cardio is a good fat burner. However, cardio can be a great fat burner if we look for ways to maximize the amount of body fat burned during cardio sessions. One of the easiest ways to encourage maximal fat burning is to do your cardio in the morning on a completely empty stomach, soon after rising and before eating. The reason is simple, in a "fasting" state (Ex. not having eaten for probably close to 10 hours), glucose - the basic energy component found on carbohydrates - circulates within the bloodstream at its lowest levels of the day. When this occurs, the body is more likely to turn to stored fuel - body fat - as energy. Upon the introduction of cardio, the body begins to look for fuel. If there are no significant amounts of glucose, the body responds by immediately digging into body fat stores for energy. Bingo.

The body will not utilize deep fat stores for energy during cardio if you have eaten before performing cardio. Instead, it will first take a look at what has recently been ingested - what you have eaten - and try to use that first before starting to utilize stores of body fat. Even a small meal, or a small carbohydrate snack, can inhibit fat burning by slowing the rate at which your body begins its search for stored body fat. Carbohydrates quickly digest into glucose, which alters the speed at which the body burns fat. In essence, food consumed before cardio exercise acts as a slowing agent, altering the body's ability to burn body fat. On the other hand, with no food, there is no slowing effect and the body can quickly start burning body fat. Glucose, the digested form of carbohydrates, plays a big role in determining your fat burning status. With low levels, fat burning increases. With high levels of glucose, fat burning dramatically slows. To ensure you are burning as much body fat as possible, schedule your aerobic sessions in the morning, without food, to keep glucose levels flat.

The second reason to avoid eating before cardio exercise has to do with our pesky little friends, hormones. With a lack of food in the body, the prevailing hormones that kick into play immediately upon aerobic exercise are catecholamines and glucagon (try saying that five times fast). Catecholamines are tiny messengers released from the adrenal glands that are dumped into the blood with exercise. Their job is to target fat cells, helping them to open up, allowing fat to be liberated and burned as fuel. However, when you eat food, specifically carbohydrates, catecholamines become less effective at doing what you want them to do - help breakdown body fat. Glucagon is the second fat burning stimulus that increases upon exercise, especially when there is a lack of food in the body. Glucagon is a major player in fat burning as it helps kick start the entire fat burning process. Glucagon helps tear down fat cells and upgrade the enzymes that use body fat as energy. Specifically, glucagon supports the production of hormone sensitive lipase, (HSL) a gatekeeper on fat cells that helps determine the flow of fat. When HSL is active, it allows more fatty acids from body fat to flow into the blood where they can be burned as fuel. On the other hand, when HSL falls, the flow of fatty acids out of fat cells becomes greatly impaired. In addition, glucagon suppresses the activity of Malonyl CoA and supports Carnitine Palmityl Transferase 1 (CPT-1). Malonyl CoA influences the liver's ability to start the fat building or fat storing process. As Malonyl CoA activity rises, fat storage increases and as it drops - by avoiding food before cardio- fat burning increases. CPT-1 is another enzyme that supports the burning of body fat by dragging fatty acids -from body fat - into muscle cells, where they are burned. When you avoid eating before cardio and allow the maximum production of glucagon, you'll experience greater CPT-1 activity which facilitates the burning of body fat. On the other hand, when you eat before cardio, all these mechanisms are compromised; less potent catecholamine activity with negligible glucagon production translating into less active fat burning.

Another point on eating before cardio is that food, especially carbohydrates, increase insulin levels. Generally, insulin is known as a fat storing hormone . It makes catecholamines less effective at triggering the breakdown of body fat and it also suppresses the release of glucagon. Remember, our little friend glucagon is the chief hormone that sets in place fat burning and support (Glucagon sounds like a Transformer). Surprisingly, it does not take a lot of food to increase insulin levels and to block the maximal fat burning effects of aerobic exercise. Even a small piece of toast is enough in to trigger sufficient insulin production to set in motion a hormonal change to mildly interrupt or slow the fat burning effects of a hard 30-40 minute cardio session. In the world of maximizing fat loss, it's just not a good idea to eat before cardio.

A lot of bodybuilders argue adding cardio to the end of a weight training session will exert the same effect as doing cardio in the morning on an empty stomach. The idea: weight training depletes the body of sugar in the blood, (glucose) which is akin to a fasting state. In other words, the hard training empties fuel from the bloodstream and when this occurs, it's a great time to do cardio. They're half right. Hardcore training does burn through glucose in the blood and it even lowers muscle glycogen stores. Both can favor the burning of body fat. If you jump on the treadmill after training, you might expect catecholamines, already floating about as a result of training, to target fat cells. In addition, with low glucose levels, you might also expect glucagon levels to be elevated. These two points can be considered true. However, the problem is duration. When training sessions become too long - be it cardio or weight training, catabolism (muscle breakdown!) sets in. Cortisol - a hormone that causes muscle breakdown - can rise too high as a result. When cardio is done after a weight training session, cortisol - one of the chief muscle wasting hormones - rises to unreasonable levels. Studies have shown cortisol to lower testosterone levels and trigger a rapid spike in free radicals. Free radicals ignite muscle inflammation, thereby knocking out the immune system and paralyzing muscle recovery. When you follow up your weight training sessions with cardio, you push the body over the edge into a quasi overtraining state. In this state, hormones like testosterone and other anabolic hormones in the body decline. As a result, it becomes very difficult to retain muscle mass.

Testosterone levels . They are the other reason that I am a huge "cardio in the morning advocate. Some studies indicate testosterone levels are higher in the morning and decline from there, only to experience a late afternoon surge. Doing cardio in the morning makes sense as it is scheduled at a time where one of the most anabolic hormones - testosterone - is at its peak. The higher testosterone level can act as an anti-catabolic, preserving muscle mass. By definition, aerobics is a potentially catabolic event. It does not "build the body up" but rather "tears it down." We always hope that we are tearing down body fat to be used as fuel. Still, with a poor nutrition strategy or if you are borderline overtrained, aerobics can become truly catabolic. It can lower testosterone levels causing a loss of metabolic supporting muscle mass! Having a hormonal profile that is higher in testosterone levels will help spare the body from eating away at its own muscle. Crushing your cardio in the morning is the best way to ensure you can burn fat without sacrificing muscle mass.

Damnit man did you type all that? Good one

[choker28]

nice one Aus, i too wish ppl would stop fretting about muscle loss, it doesnt happen that easily and you need to be in shit street for your body to turn to muscle for fuel ie, starving

Depending on what time you go to bed,lets say 11 pm say last meal was 8-9 pm and if your training will be primarily protein,Then rise at say 10 am down the gym for 11 am so thats 14 hours without food, for a trained athlete the body will be starving,the body will not burn fat as energy with out carbs being present.

[The Bear 79]

Depending on what time you go to bed,lets say 11 pm say last meal was 8-9 pm and if your training will be primarily protein,Then rise at say 10 am down the gym for 11 am so thats 14 hours without food, for a trained athlete the body will be starving,the body will not burn fat as energy with out carbs being present.

Well then get up between 6 & 8, like a normal person. Do u REALLY lay in bed til 10?!?!? And ur body doesn't go in2 "starve" mode that easy / quick. You'll know when ur body has reached starvation...............severe headaches, fatigue / lethargy, irritable temperament, weakened immune system, & dizziness / nausea, r just a few of the symptoms u will experience if ur body is in a state of starvation, & its not gona happen it 12 - 14 hrs. And YES, the body WILL burn fat "without carbs being present". Did u not read the study auslifta posted?

[choker28]

just because some random internet article says so ,i could show you various internet article that say the opposite like this one Cardio in the Morning on an Empty Stomach
First of all it’s a myth that cardio in the morning on an empty stomach is the best way to burn fat. This isn’t just my opinion but the most knowledgeable trainers and exercise experts agree that cardio in the morning on an empty stomach is not good for you body.

The myth purveyors will tell you that in the morning that you have low glycogen stores and energy levels are low because you haven’t consumed any carbohydrates, so then you will tap into your fat stores.

This is TOTALLY wrong. The complete opposite happens.

Why is it wrong? Fat burning doesn’t occur during cardio exercise, but about two hours after. Instead your body will look at your tasty muscles for energy meaning. Good-bye muscles.

So unless your goal is to become scrawny and lose muscle then by all means do cardio in the morning.
Its also common sense not to do cardio on an empty stomach. You won’t have a satisfactory amount of energy meaning decreases performance which means less gains and poor results. And if you think about it, your body has just fasted for eight hours and it needs something to eat to refuel itself.

[The Bear 79]

Well the proof is in the results, many people lookin 2 build muscle & burn fat, do fasted cardio withe great success, including myself. I cant speak 4 every1 else, but I haven't lost an ounce of muscle due 2 fasted cardio. I'd like 2 c some studies, not just 1 sided opinions. Support ur claim(s)...............if u can.

[auslifta]

Depending on what time you go to bed,lets say 11 pm say last meal was 8-9 pm and if your training will be primarily protein,Then rise at say 10 am down the gym for 11 am so thats 14 hours without food, for a trained athlete the body will be starving,the body will not burn fat as energy with out carbs being present.

I dont know any respected body builder that has last meal at 8pm and sleeps for 11hrs. Usually your last meal/consumption of food would be red meat/cottage cheese/casein shake just before sleep, lets say 10pm, then rise at 6am for a 1 hour cardio session. Red meat can take up to 12 hours to digest and up to 24 hrs to convert to amino acids. It takes alot longer for your body to go into starvation mode. Not the 14hrs you suggest, thats just more broscience. If you managed to read my post you first responded to you'd see I suggested taking BCAA's upon waking also.

[auslifta]

just because some random internet article says so ,i could show you various internet article that say the opposite like this one Cardio in the Morning on an Empty Stomach
First of all it’s a myth that cardio in the morning on an empty stomach is the best way to burn fat. This isn’t just my opinion but the most knowledgeable trainers and exercise experts agree that cardio in the morning on an empty stomach is not good for you body.





Why is it wrong? Fat burning doesn’t occur during cardio exercise, but about two hours after. Instead your body will look at your tasty muscles for energy meaning. Good-bye muscles.

So unless your goal is to become scrawny

Chris Aceto is just some random article writer? haha. What does that make you?

I've done very well on fasted cardio, in fact I did a cut on intermittent fasting, I managed to get from 15%@94kgs to around 87kgs @10% in 9 weeks, all my lifts went up, my quads and arm measurements stayed the same. Strength stayed same on almost all lifts. All natural. Look up lean gains, they get great results with a 16hr fast every day.

[choker28]

There is evidence to support both these methods of fat loss from various different experts just search the web and you will find substantial articles ,Me personally i go by what i learned at collage and university.Im also not a body builder so my sleeping habits are my personal choice,But i do do a lot of cardio and i do it first thing in the morning but i always pre load with carbs both complex and simple a good hour before training,and that works for me

Chris Aceto is just some random article writer? haha. What does that make you? Well ive helped train many professional fighters in boxing and MMA both professional and amateurs including nutritional advice and strength and conditioning. including world champions Jeff Monson and Braulio Estima and various ABA Boxing champions so i must be doing some thing right

[songdog]

Well everyone is different but doing fasted cardio has never hurt anyone that I knew or read of.And 20 min of cardio isnt going to do shit but help you lose some water weight.That is if you break a sweat you need to do depending on your age min 45 minutes to 1 hr.I do 1 hr 40 min but I am a little older than most of you.Then in the evening I do another 40/60 minutes.Thats wat works for me find out wat works for you its all in the results!

[auslifta]

There is evidence to support both these methods of fat loss from various different experts just search the web and you will find substantial articles ,Me personally i go by what i learned at collage and university.Im also not a body builder so my sleeping habits are my personal choice,But i do do a lot of cardio and i do it first thing in the morning but i always pre load with carbs both complex and simple a good hour before training,and that works for me

Chris Aceto is just some random article writer? haha. What does that make you? Well ive helped train many professional fighters in boxing and MMA both professional and amateurs including nutritional advice and strength and conditioning. including world champions Jeff Monson and Braulio Estima and various ABA Boxing champions so i must be doing some thing right

Diet for competitive athletes ie boxing/MMA etc is a whole different kettle of fish. I would never ever recommend a carb depletion at any stage for a fighter or endurance athlete EVER. I come from a boxing background and know how much energy is need for one day of training. Carbs are very important for that. Bodybuilding is so very different for diet.

[choker28]

Diet for competitive athletes ie boxing/MMA etc is a whole different kettle of fish. I would never ever recommend a carb depletion at any stage for a fighter or endurance athlete EVER. I come from a boxing background and know how much energy is need for one day of training. Carbs are very important for that. Bodybuilding is so very different for diet.

Agreed, at the end of the day different sports require different nutritional evaluations

[chuckt12345]

no wonder OP has to start new threads

[dec11]

Agreed, at the end of the day different sports require different nutritional evaluations

then why did you hijack this thread with BS? your sleeping example is a joke ffs

[gearbox]

however, great read auslift...thanks for that info..

[dec11]

There is evidence to support both these methods of fat loss from various different experts just search the web and you will find substantial articles ,Me personally i go by what i learned at collage and university.Im also not a body builder so my sleeping habits are my personal choice,But i do do a lot of cardio and i do it first thing in the morning but i always pre load with carbs both complex and simple a good hour before training,and that works for me

Chris Aceto is just some random article writer? haha. What does that make you? Well ive helped train many professional fighters in boxing and MMA both professional and amateurs including nutritional advice and strength and conditioning. including world champions Jeff Monson and Braulio Estima and various ABA Boxing champions so i must be doing some thing right

choker you come on here every so often to challenge tried and tested protocols used by ppl on here who know they work. its all, 'ive trained this ive trained that in martial arts', why dont you stick to martial arts and stop annoying ppl on here with crap?

[Swifto]

just because some random internet article says so ,i could show you various internet article that say the opposite like this one Cardio in the Morning on an Empty Stomach
First of all it’s a myth that cardio in the morning on an empty stomach is the best way to burn fat. This isn’t just my opinion but the most knowledgeable trainers and exercise experts agree that cardio in the morning on an empty stomach is not good for you body.

The myth purveyors will tell you that in the morning that you have low glycogen stores and energy levels are low because you haven’t consumed any carbohydrates, so then you will tap into your fat stores.

This is TOTALLY wrong. The complete opposite happens.

Why is it wrong? Fat burning doesn’t occur during cardio exercise, but about two hours after. Instead your body will look at your tasty muscles for energy meaning. Good-bye muscles.

So unless your goal is to become scrawny and lose muscle then by all means do cardio in the morning.
Its also common sense not to do cardio on an empty stomach. You won’t have a satisfactory amount of energy meaning decreases performance which means less gains and poor results. And if you think about it, your body has just fasted for eight hours and it needs something to eat to refuel itself.

You're somewhat correct, though a little vague.

Carb ingestion does effect fat oxidation at low intensity's (25-50% VO2 max), but it MAY reduce effect fat oxidation at higher intensity's (63-68% VO2 max) in untrained subjects, but do NOT reduce fat oxidation in trained subjects for at least the first 80-120 minutes of exercise.

At the established intensity level of peak fat oxidation (~63% VO2 max), carbohydrate increases performance without any suppression of fat oxidation in trained subjects.

Carbohydrate during exercise spares liver glycogen, which is among the most critical factors for anticatabolism during hypocaloric & other conditions of metabolic stress. This protective hepatic effect is absent in fasted cardio.

My opinion from the above: FASTED cardio does not need to be done at all.

[choker28]

choker you come on here every so often to challenge tried and tested protocols used by ppl on here who know they work. its all, 'ive trained this ive trained that in martial arts', why dont you stick to martial arts and stop annoying ppl on here with crap?

I don't come on on here to challenge anybody and anything,im just expressing my opinion,something you seem do do all the time Dec 11 just because i don't agree with everything that other people say doesn't make what i say crap, Auslifta and myself were just just expressing are own thoughts on the subject i didn't see him taking offence to that.but you come on and tell me im talking crap ,who the **** are you to tell me what i can and cant say,if you don like what im saying don't read my post.
I mentioned that i have trained athletes because i thought it was relevant to the conversation, not to try and impress anybody on this forum, and when have i mentioned martial arts before this conversation ?

[choker28]

well its nice to have someone else have similar thought to myself thanks for the imput

[dec11]

I don't come on on here to challenge anybody and anything,im just expressing my opinion,something you seem do do all the time Dec 11 just because i don't agree with everything that other people say doesn't make what i say crap, Auslifta and myself were just just expressing are own thoughts on the subject i didn't see him taking offence to that.but you come on and tell me im talking crap ,who the **** are you to tell me what i can and cant say,if you don like what im saying don't read my post.
I mentioned that i have trained athletes because i thought it was relevant to the conversation, not to try and impress anybody on this forum, and when have i mentioned martial arts before this conversation ?

i have trained numerous ppl, mainly in weight loss. by far ive had better results with those who were able to come to me in the am and fasted than in the evening after a days eating. so for me, am fasted is optimal and produces faster results.

you posted a ridiculous eating and sleeping regime which you'll find very little ppl following. you also stated that 'if your aim is to become scrawny and lose muscle then do fasted cardio in the morning'. thats a statement, not opinion and its very wrong. i do fasted cardios and im very very far from being scrawny.

lets see your proof that ppl will lose muscle and become scrawny?

i stand by what i said, you've posted crap and its there for all to see.

[DeadlyD]

Wow guys!, lots of info here, thanks for all who commented, I got some good tips that I will apply in my cardio workout! ...

[Swifto]

i have trained numerous ppl, mainly in weight loss. by far ive had better results with those who were able to come to me in the am and fasted than in the evening after a days eating. so for me, am fasted is optimal and produces faster results.

you posted a ridiculous eating and sleeping regime which you'll find very little ppl following. you also stated that 'if your aim is to become scrawny and lose muscle then do fasted cardio in the morning'. thats a statement, not opinion and its very wrong. i do fasted cardios and im very very far from being scrawny.

lets see your proof that ppl will lose muscle and become scrawny?

i stand by what i said, you've posted crap and its there for all to see.

Did you not read my reply as well?

There is no proof that fasted cardio is superior to cardio done when food has been ingested in trained individuals.

From what I know and understand, it can cause further reductions in LBM, as opposed to cardio done when not fasted.

[choker28]

i have trained numerous ppl, mainly in weight loss. by far ive had better results with those who were able to come to me in the am and fasted than in the evening after a days eating. so for me, am fasted is optimal and produces faster results.

you posted a ridiculous eating and sleeping regime which you'll find very little ppl following. you also stated that 'if your aim is to become scrawny and lose muscle then do fasted cardio in the morning'. thats a statement, not opinion and its very wrong. i do fasted cardios and im very very far from being scrawny.

lets see your proof that ppl will lose muscle and become scrawny?

i stand by what i said, you've posted crap and its there for all to see.

if you had read the post correctly in the first place.the part about if your aim is to become "scrawny and lose muscle then do fasted cardio in the morning'.were not my words but a come back on an internet article saying the opposite of what Auslifta had previously posted
you posted a ridiculous eating and sleeping regime which you'll find very little ppl following...well most people who i know train, don't eat late at night and certainly try not to consume carbohydrates as a last meal before bed.They usually consume myself included, some sort of protein usually casien ie cottage cheese or a shake .so the body has not taken on board any carbs since the evening meal.So i would never get out of bed and go straight to the gym and do my cardio on a empty stomach,how can you expect the body to perform with out its main source "carbohydrates are the primary and most efficient source of energy or fuel and that it is best not to try to meet our fuel needs from fat or proteins. It is stating the true fact that carbohydrates, not proteins, supply our primary nutrient needs."

[choker28]

lets see your proof that ppl will lose muscle and become scrawny? here are 3 for you to get on with there are endless studies proving training on a empty stomach is beneficial are just a myth
http://www.simplyshredded.com/get-op...ng-cardio.html
http://mikewhitfield.blogspot.com/20...y-stomach.html
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/the-...-debunked.html

[The Bear 79]

lets see your proof that ppl will lose muscle and become scrawny? here are 3 for you to get on with there are endless studies proving training on a empty stomach is beneficial are just a myth
http://www.simplyshredded.com/get-op...ng-cardio.html
http://mikewhitfield.blogspot.com/20...y-stomach.html
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/the-...-debunked.html

OK, u posted 2 opinions (not studies) 1 of which was written by a man who has obviously "lost muscle & become scrawny" (Wescott) And the 1 study u did post was anything but informative 2 say the least, how did the come 2 their conclusion, u cant just say "we made people run & we hav concluded this & that..............." HOW???!!! Where's the science? As far as I'm concerned, ur "study" is just another opinion.

[choker28]

For one i never said you would lose muscle and get scrawny ,that was a internet article,i posted , i thought this was a forum were you express you opinion and give other people information that might just give them other ideas to think about,at the end of the day no one is forcing anybody to read or do anything they don't want to do,Its mine and many other professional trainers opinion that doing cardio on a empty stomach is not beneficial for you and vice versa.
I will express my opinion on subjects that i think i have knowledge of,and if certain people think im talking crap that's there prerogative.
no one not even the top scientist are 100% for certain what is the right or wrong way to do cardio,for every 100 that say this is the way, there's another 100 saying the opposite.For me i do what i was taught at college and what has been successful for myself and my clients.