First AAS cycle. Input and personal opinions much welcomed!

[Grizzlyadam3000]

First off I've done loads of homework on the subject at hand, but still looking for personal opinions.

My cycle will be as follows
Test 400- .5 ml 2x week/wks 1-10
Clomiphene- 100/100/50/50 wks 12-16
Tamoxifen - 40/40/20/20 wks 12-16
Letrozole on hand if gyno flares up " already have a touch of pubescent gynecomastia "

Past history:

4 week superdrol cycle at 17 y/o -10mg ed "senior year of wrestling, broke out like crazy and moved up two weightclasses which at the time pissed off the coach" pre weight: 150lbs/ post weight: 171lbs

4 week Mdrol cycle at 22 y/o - 10 mg ed " I know, mdrol=supedrol" Once again strength and size gains were off the charts compared to what I was used to.
pre weight: 204lbs/ post weight: 227lbs

4 week hdrol cycle 9 months ago-50mg ed " Used in conjunction with a lean diet and loads of cardio to shed 9lbs"
pre weight: 218lbs/ post weight: 209lbs

Stats:
Age: 23
Height: 6'2
Weight: 223lbs
bf: 10-11% -Upper four abs are visible



Anyways, I wanted to ask if just 400mg/wk Test would be enough, considering I got great gains off of the minimum dosage of ph's. For those who may be unfamiliar with the product its a blend of test. 150mg Test E/ 150mg Test C/ 100mg Test Prop. The only hands on knowledge I have with hormones is my past three ph cycles which is why I'm here, for opinions which I'm sure would be far better than my own! Any help would be more than greatly appreciated, especially from any who have taken this particular doseage.

[RZGP]

dont know enough to answer, but welcome to the board

[Grizzlyadam3000]

Thanks! What particular additional information do I need to put down?

[RZGP]

workout and diet

[tomt45]

Since it has prop you should pin every other day. I would do a little higher dose like 500mg a week and run it for 12 weeks instead of 10. I would suggest using arimidex instead of letro for this cycle and just start out at .25mg ed throughout the cycle.

6'2 220 with 10% bf is solid man. You must be eating good and have a good routine. Everybody will say your should wait until you are 25. Which is good advice but if you are going to do it I would suggest doing it like I mentioned.

pct looks good you could go 100/50/50/50 for clomid...the nolva dosages look good.

[Times Roman]

Welcome to the board mate!
You are a bit young to be cycling, but close enough where I won’t hammer you on it.
400 mg test/week is fine. Better to start off a little on the light side than on the heavy side, imho.
You can run a ten week cycle, but 12 weeks is what I call a standard duration.
Before you start, I’d be more comfortable knowing you have your diet all dialed in. You should post your daily meals including macros in the nutrition section and let GB or one of the other vets there analyze it for improvement opportunities. Most newbs think they have a clean diet, when in fact, they do not.
How many years have you been lifting?
I will let others speak to your PCT regime. I’m TRT, and therefore no need to PCT
---Roman

[Grizzlyadam3000]

Ah...right!

Workout tends to change from week to week but a typical example would be something like this.
Mon-Chest & Back
Deadlifts-5x8-12 Benchpress- 4x8-12
Barbell rows- 3x8-12 Incline Benchpress- 4x8-12
Weighted Chinups- 3x8-12 Decline Benchpress- 4x8-12
Dumbbell rows- 3x8-12

Wed: Shoulders
Pushpress- 3x8-12
DB overhead press- 3x8-12
Upright rows- 3x8-12
Side laterals- 3x8-12
BB shrugs-4x12

Fri-Legs
Squats-5x10-15
Front Squats- 3x10-15
SLDL- 3x10-15
Leg Curls- 3x10-15
Seated Calf Raises- 5x20
Standing Calf Raises-5x8

Sat-Arms
Closegrip BP- 4x8-12 Closegrip Pullups- 4x8-12
Skull Crushers-4x8-12 BB curls- 4x8-12
DB kickbacks-4x8-12 Reverse Grip Curls-4x8-12
Wrist Curls- 5x15

ABS are done eod: Planks/ Side Planks
Cardio is 2x per week: 4x40 yd dashes/ 2x100 yd dashes/ 1 mile jogging. "I LOATHE treadmills...adhd related"


Diet is fairly clean. I live in the south so the freezer is always stocked with lean meats from wild game.

Meal 1: 5 whole eggs/ 1 serving oatmeal/ 1 slice wheat toast/ 8 oz milk
Meal 2: Turkey, Chicken, or Tuna on wheat/ 1 bananna or apple
Meal 3: Chicken breast or deer burger with a serving of white rice/ Broccoli/ Cauliflower
Meal 4: Preworkout shake - 52 grams of protein/ 1/2 cup Carbo Gain -190 grams carbs
Meal 5: Postworkout shake- Same as pre workout
Meal 6: One serving of meat "typically deer, beef, hog, or chicken"/ 1 baked potatoe or white rice/ 1 serving of steamed or grilled vegetables.

Diet generally stays the same except for the meat sources. Grew up in a house hold without junkfood or sodas so never developed too much of a taste.

[Grizzlyadam3000]

Thanks for the help guys. I've been lifting since taking my first weightlifting class at 14 y/o. Weightlifting coach was a former am bodybuilder so I got some pretty good advise at a young age.

I know the age thing is still a factor. Hence why after my first superdrol cycle I waited almost 5 years to do another. I'm starting to hit alot more plateus than I used to hence the desire to cycle.

And Tom...just out of curiousity, why adex of letro?

[jasc]

Letro is the most powerful common AI and is often overkill. It's great for reversing onset gyno, but adex or aromasin would be more suitable to prevent it or correct minor symptoms.
Swifto just posted a great write-up on why you should run an ai cycle. I'd suggest reading it when you get a chance. it's a good read n very informative.

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...o#.Txg113hZ54E

[The Bear 79]

WTF! Since when is 23 close enuf to 25?!?!? I've sed it b4 & I'll say it again.........if 24 is "close enuf" to 25, then 23 is "close enuf" to 24, 22 is "close enuf" to 23, & so on & so on. Wher will it end? Ther is no "close enuf", were talkin bout potentially fvckin up some kids undeveloped Endo. & HPTA 4 LIFE!

[TRT2010]

chances are Bear he has already done some damage to it so seeing as he has already done 3 steroid cycles we may as wlel give him some safe advise. he seems respecful enough to give him that atleast. Seems like he has his ducks in a row IMO. Im not gonna knock him cause i did cycles that young " regretably but its whatever now that im 27" I say your good man. Id think that you are gonna find that 400mg is gonna be your sweet spot. i do 350-400 when i cycle and i do fine. Whether you go anastrozole or letro i guess its your preference. 200mg x 2 a week is good. If you are doing good at week 10 then maybe you can extend it 2 more weeks. Start PCT 14 days after last pin. Your protocol for PCT looks spot on. Sorry if this offends anyone seeing as he is 23. You know he already has the gear and is gonna do it regardless so lets try and make sure he does it safe.

[BBrian]

TRT has a really good point there Bear. The guy did Superdrol at 17 years of age...did nobody else's jaw drop when they read this? Superdrol was much more than just a prohormone. For all intents and purposes that is equivalent to doing a four week cycle of Anadrol 50 at the age of 17. The best thing we could possibly do is guide him through a safe, effective cycle. Also, look at his diet and workout routine. This kid is so far ahead of the game it's ridiculous. I can't help but feel envious of the direction he has received up to this point (disregarding the Superdrol at 17 - that's very scary), I wish I had been so lucky at his age. There would be absolutely no point in saying "stay away from AAS, just focus on your routine and diet" - he's already past that point, and he's going to be doing this cycle whether we like it or not. Best thing to do is to choose the lesser of two evils, that being good cycle advice and direction.

To the original poster, to reiterate jasc, do yourself a favor and read Swifto's thread on AI's. As far as comparing AI's, it's best to note the simple equation of Aromasin >Arimidex >Letrozole . The reason being I believe is well documented in Swifto's post, but the comparative toxicity and effectiveness of each of these are the key factors. I think that it would be good to consider this your first AAS cycle, and just stick with the Test 400. When you finish your PCT, you should be delighted to find that the Nolvadex will rid you of your preexisting gynocomastia.

[The Bear 79]

I c it like this, he's played Russian Roulette 3 times, & got lucky all 3 times, does that mean he should keep playing Russian Roulette...............NO. Just cuz he has some exp in the game now, doesn't mean the danger is not still there..............eventually there's gona b a bullet in the chamber. OP, its not like I'm sayin wait 10 or 15 yrs, just wait til ur 25, its not that far away, & by then there is a GREAT reduction in the risk of damage 2 ur undeveloped Endo & HPTA. I hope u dont believe "I cycled the proper way & that's y I havnt hurt my Endo. / HPTA" You've been lucky, & nothing mor, eventually that luck WILL run out.

[Grizzlyadam3000]

jasc- Huge help, thanks for the read. Will be picking up some Exemestane before my first inj.

TRT-2010- I'm really hoping 400 will be a good starting dose. Considering swapping to a Test Cyp for first time and holding the Test400 for a winter cycle possibly. And with me it's not so much preference when it comes to choosing letro vs anastrozole as I have no experience with either. That's why the imput from you guys is so greatly appreciated on my part bud. Will be extending cycle to 12 weeks!

BBrian- The thing about taking superdrol at 17 is, well I was 17. How many kids that age aren't living with their head up there ass lol. But yeah it was more a situation of "ah it's legal so how potent can it be. It's just methylated masterone". Strangely enough I took it when it first came out with the idea that it would keep me lean, add a bit of strength without much bw gain, considering my research on it at the time was reading the steroid profile for masterone. Boy was I wrong . My workouts and diet is just what I've found over the years to be my niche. From time to time I'll drop my reps to 5 or up to 15 for a week to mix things up, but I've found I personally get my best strength and size gains off predominately compound free weight movements using the philosophy of maximum weight + time spent under said weight, using somewhat explosive yet controlled movements. My particular diet is also where I've found success. I find keeping my calories between 3000 and 4000, with whole foods "for the most part" is where I get optimal muscle gains with minimal fat gains. I move up any higher and I just see fat gains moving up while muscle gains stay relatively the same. Although AAS might change that, so I'll keep an open mind in diet alteration. Also, as far as the preexisting pubescent gynecomastia , I've taken Nolvadex and Clomiphene after every PH or DS cycle I did. So I'm still skeptical as to whether it will clear up any preexisting conditions :/.

The Bear 79- COMPLETELY understand where your coming from with this. I acknowledge in all honesty that I was completely lucky to get away with three cycles at such a young age. Especially with minimal effect to my endocrine system and HPTA, or atleast I'm assuming so "everything still works like a champ". But I'm sure there's far more to it than that. But, and I say this with absolutely no intent for disrespect, I do for all purposes intend on doing this cycle. But if it's worth anything, I have no intentions of taking superdoses, don't plan on taking tren , adrol, dbol or anything like that just yet. My plans are to run this cycle at a dose which will be high enough to allow for great gains while still keeping in mind that it's my first time with Test and my gains will be slightly more endowed than for most. Hence the 400mg/wk doseage. I have every intent on running hawthorne berry for blood pressure, Exemestane at 10mg ed throughout the cycle, Nolva and Clomid for PCT, and if members on the board think it best I could without a doubt get my hands on some hcg . I've eatin extremely clean my entire life, no family history of heart disease, male pattern baldness, or prostate cancer, or high blood pressure. I've been working out solid since 14 years old to go from 5'7 103lbs to 6'2 and 220ish lbs, so I'm certainly not your typical early twenties guy who just wants to take winstrol to be built like Brad Pitt, and I have no intentions of looking for a magic elixer that can substitute a shitty diet and poor work ethics. I have no dillusions of such powerful androgens, I know the side effects and I accept full responsibility for the costs and risks involved. And to top it off, I only want to do two cycles per year, slowly over the years and as cycles go by advancing my options of certain androgens, as I would like to look at this as somewhat of a longterm commitment to taking my physique and athleticism to another level.
But I do appreciate your concern, and beleive me there isn't a doubt in my mind that your knowledge of AAS vastly outweighs mine, so once again, no intent for disrespect.

[Times Roman]

Ah...right!

Workout tends to change from week to week but a typical example would be something like this.
Mon-Chest & Back
Deadlifts-5x8-12 Benchpress- 4x8-12
Barbell rows- 3x8-12 Incline Benchpress- 4x8-12
Weighted Chinups- 3x8-12 Decline Benchpress- 4x8-12
Dumbbell rows- 3x8-12

Wed: Shoulders
Pushpress- 3x8-12
DB overhead press- 3x8-12
Upright rows- 3x8-12
Side laterals- 3x8-12
BB shrugs-4x12

Fri-Legs
Squats-5x10-15
Front Squats- 3x10-15
SLDL- 3x10-15
Leg Curls- 3x10-15
Seated Calf Raises- 5x20
Standing Calf Raises-5x8

Sat-Arms
Closegrip BP- 4x8-12 Closegrip Pullups- 4x8-12
Skull Crushers-4x8-12 BB curls- 4x8-12
DB kickbacks-4x8-12 Reverse Grip Curls-4x8-12
Wrist Curls- 5x15

ABS are done eod: Planks/ Side Planks
Cardio is 2x per week: 4x40 yd dashes/ 2x100 yd dashes/ 1 mile jogging. "I LOATHE treadmills...adhd related"


Diet is fairly clean. I live in the south so the freezer is always stocked with lean meats from wild game.

Meal 1: 5 whole eggs/ 1 serving oatmeal/ 1 slice wheat toast/ 8 oz milkMeal 2: Turkey, Chicken, or Tuna on wheat/ 1 bananna or apple
Meal 3: Chicken breast or deer burger with a serving of white rice/ Broccoli/ Cauliflower
Meal 4: Preworkout shake - 52 grams of protein/ 1/2 cup Carbo Gain -190 grams carbs
Meal 5: Postworkout shake- Same as pre workout
Meal 6: One serving of meat "typically deer, beef, hog, or chicken"/ 1 baked potatoe or white rice/ 1 serving of steamed or grilled vegetables.

Diet generally stays the same except for the meat sources. Grew up in a house hold without junkfood or sodas so never developed too much of a taste.

Mate,
You should post this up in the diet section. Still have a lot of work to do on the diet. I've bolded some things I can quickly see. for example, one should always injest complex carbs (maybe except pre post work out shakes), but you've got simple carbs with about half your meals. Milk is loaded with sugar. you should really be a "water only" type. wheat toast is too processed, clearly not a complex carb, fruits are OK if you eat preworkout, but you do not. Simple carbs convert to sugar very quickly then your body's response is to dump too much insulin which is bad, and then the glycogen response is bad too. baked potato and white rice are both out. gly***ic index is too high (means easily converts to sugar, which forces your body to dump insulin to mop up the excess blood sugar, then it dumps glycogen to get rid of the insulin... all very tough on the body)

So what do the macros look like? know what macros are? go here to find out:
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...nutrient-Chart
once you know your TDEE, then go 500calories a day more than that. You will gain clean hard muscle if they are the right calories and you are busting your ass in the gym.

Don't know what your TDEE is, or even what that means? go here:
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...gy-Expenditure

So, let me repeat myself. Go to the nutrition section here:
http://forums.steroid.com/forumdispl...ESOURCE-FORUM+
and post your diet, including macros! I'm sure GB or one of the other nutrition Gurus will be more than happy to analyze your diet and make suggestions for you to dial it in.

Again, Steroids are the last thing for you to consider!

Good luck!
---Roman

[Grizzlyadam3000]

Thanks Roman, will get right on that!!

BTW..HUGE help with the macro chart. I figured I ate clean because I never use butter or sour cream with my potatoes or rice. If I can get the diet reorganized it might be what I need to pass this little rut I'm in. Regardless though the AAS are already here soooo...maybe I'll hold off on them for a month or two so I can get my diet perfected.

P.S....Completely depressed to hear I shouldn't drink milk lol

[The Bear 79]

Grizzlyadam3000 ur obviously pretty knowledgeable & that makes ms a bit mor comfortable with wut ur doing, but I still advise u 2 wait til ur 25. I hope it all works out 4 u buddy. Good luck.

[Times Roman]

Thanks Roman, will get right on that!!

BTW..HUGE help with the macro chart. I figured I ate clean because I never use butter or sour cream with my potatoes or rice. If I can get the diet reorganized it might be what I need to pass this little rut I'm in. Regardless though the AAS are already here soooo...maybe I'll hold off on them for a month or two so I can get my diet perfected.

P.S....Completely depressed to hear I shouldn't drink milk lol

to live this lifestyle, there are sacrafices that need to be made.

Milk has lactose which is sugar. Lactose is also difficult to digest. We have been led to believe that "every body needs milk". that is not true. You should get everything you need from the foods you eat. The little bit of calcium milk provides is easily found elsewhere.

BTW.... "every body needs milk" is the dogma propagated by the dairy council, which is obviously a special interest political group

[BBrian]

To Times Roman's specific advice on a couple foods, I have to offer a rebuttal. First and foremost, to say that wheat bread is over processed and not a complex carb leaves much to be expounded upon. If a wheat bread product simply states "wheat bread", very often it is nothing more than white bread with the addition of caramel for coloring, and in this aspect you are correct. However, if you look for a product that states "100% whole wheat" or "100% whole grain", you do in fact have a complex carb on your hands, and a food that should be included in the diet.

Secondly, on the subject of white rice, this is still a complex carbohydrate. What makes white rice different from brown rice is simply that the bran has been removed, and therefore the fiber with it. Otherwise, this is still a complex carbohydrate.

Thirdly, in regards to potatoes, this is a complex carbohydrate also. When you compare a sweet potato to any of the several types of white potatoes, the primary difference is that the flesh of a sweet potato has much more fiber than the whites, whereas in white potatoes, the peelings contain most of the fiber. Otherwise, we are still dealing with a healthy carbohydrate. We actually learned this in grade school, but luckily for me I have a girlfriend who is one of the leading registered dietitians in my area. There is a great fallacy out there when it comes to foods that are "anything white", that being that they are simple carbohydrates, but this simply is not the case at all.

And finally, yes, lactose is a simple sugar, but milk contains essential amino acids, not to mention milk is an important source of nutrients that our bodies requires from the very first day of life post-womb. Do we require milk for good health later in life? Absolutely not. But milk is by no means necessarily bad for us, quite the contrary, there are many benefits from consuming milk in correlation with a good diet. If you want to stay away from simple carbohydrates, you need to stay away from refined sugar and most importantly, high-fructose corn syrup.

[Grizzlyadam3000]

To Times Roman's specific advice on a couple foods, I have to offer a rebuttal. First and foremost, to say that wheat bread is over processed and not a complex carb leaves much to be expounded upon. If a wheat bread product simply states "wheat bread", very often it is nothing more than white bread with the addition of caramel for coloring, and in this aspect you are correct. However, if you look for a product that states "100% whole wheat" or "100% whole grain", you do in fact have a complex carb on your hands, and a food that should be included in the diet.

Secondly, on the subject of white rice, this is still a complex carbohydrate. What makes white rice different from brown rice is simply that the bran has been removed, and therefore the fiber with it. Otherwise, this is still a complex carbohydrate.

Thirdly, in regards to potatoes, this is a complex carbohydrate also. When you compare a sweet potato to any of the several types of white potatoes, the primary difference is that the flesh of a sweet potato has much more fiber than the whites, whereas in white potatoes, the peelings contain most of the fiber. Otherwise, we are still dealing with a healthy carbohydrate. We actually learned this in grade school, but luckily for me I have a girlfriend who is one of the leading registered dietitians in my area. There is a great fallacy out there when it comes to foods that are "anything white", that being that they are simple carbohydrates, but this simply is not the case at all.

And finally, yes, lactose is a simple sugar, but milk contains essential amino acids, not to mention milk is an important source of nutrients that our bodies requires from the very first day of life post-womb. Do we require milk for good health later in life? Absolutely not. But milk is by no means necessarily bad for us, quite the contrary, there are many benefits from consuming milk in correlation with a good diet. If you want to stay away from simple carbohydrates, you need to stay away from refined sugar and most importantly, high-fructose corn syrup.

That is one thing that threw me for a loop is the rice, potatoes and skim milk theory. I've always kept all three in my diet even when cutting, and I've been down to 4-5% on a few occasions for weeks on end. And I should have stated before that the bread I eat is 100% whole grain. But hopefully your right about the rice because I'm not too huge a fan of brown rice. Oh and for what its worth I started mixing in black beans with my rice everyday for a small boost in caloric intake.

[Grizzlyadam3000]

Edit...double post

[hankdiesel]

I like the diet (it could always be a little better) and I like the cycle. Welcome to the darkside

[BBrian]

That is one thing that threw me for a loop is the rice, potatoes and skim milk theory. I've always kept all three in my diet even when cutting, and I've been down to 4-5% on a few occasions for weeks on end. And I should have stated before that the bread I eat is 100% whole grain. But hopefully your right about the rice because I'm not too huge a fan of brown rice. Oh and for what its worth I started mixing in black beans with my rice everyday for a small boost in caloric intake.

Worry not my friend, this is information from published dietetic textbooks. And I'm glad you brought up black beans; black beans and other legumes are good sources of many nutrients such as Omega 6, proteins, and folates. Folates, or folic acid, are essential to all new cell production in the body, and consequently essential to creating new muscle fibers. Interestingly, antacids and aspirin very effectively prevent folates from doing their job, so it's important to be wary of taking too many of these things if you are working to put on lean muscle mass. I know I'm going off topic a little here, but I thought it was interesting information to share.

[Grizzlyadam3000]

UPDATE:

Swapped my workout to one I picked up from an olympic sprinting article. Squats have gone up 15lbs and weight is down to 216lbs with significantly less bodyfat. Still have the test on hand, but considering waiting til april. I figure it would be smart to go ahead and shed off some excess bodyfat and get around 7-8% before cycling so the bulk will seem more apparent. Also considering switching to prop but I'm definitely open to suggestions.

One other thing, the source I have for hcg also has a great deal on ifg-1 dec. Buy 2 get 1 free. Just curious as to what some of you may think about adding this in to a first cycle. I've never dealt peptides before but I have dealt with gh's being as how I was put on them when I was younger but the information on igf looks pretty amazing. Especially when the synergistic effects of mixing it with aas comes into play