Another gains being kept debate.

[Whoady]

I see a bunch of guys on here talking about "yo this is my 4th cycle, stats: 6'0 185 lbs, 16% bf..." Most of the guys who post on here have results that could be attained naturally, without AAS. Now I realize that these guys that ask these questions are off cycle and have probably shrunk down significantly from their on-cycle stats. But it seems that they keep shrinking down to their original size, without keeping much gains at all. I know that some of them didn't do proper PCT and HCG during cycle, but it can't be that the majority of them are doing it wrong all the time.

Since I have been back at my parents' house for vacation, after being gone from home for 4 months, I went back to the same gym I always went to. I see the same guys there. I see the guys who, when I left, were on cycle with a red face and zits and a fuller look. Obviously steroids. Then I see them now, and they're smaller than I am! Then I see the guys who never got off steroids and they look like they did 4 months ago. Some of the bigger guys who were much bigger than the regular gym rat I don't even see around anymore. Wonder what happened?

The one question I always had and never was really answered was "Will any gains be kept in the long run after a cycle?" A lot of guys say "it depends."
My dilemma is a question of purpose. Is there a purpose to doing a cycle if you are going to shrink back to your original size afterward? I can't seem to justify spending hundreds of dollars on something that will give you temporary results with the added bonus of possible gyno, testicular atrophy, hair loss, libido loss, HPTA damage, etc.

Most of the guys on here seem to have shortsightedness. They want to talk about the NOW, not the AFTER. I have yet to run into a knowledgeable member who can respond genuinely about their experience and provide reasoning for their actions. Maybe this is because people like me who ask questions, research, look at the short term benefits versus the long term consequences - don't do steroids. Most of my friends who do steroids seem to have the same common trait: Shortsightedness. They're always talking about their next cycle, but honestly, I don't see them making any real progress. The only time they are bigger than their natural size is when they're on. When they're off, it's back to square one.

I was contemplating doing steroids at one point, but now I'm not so sure. It just doesn't make sense to me. What's the point? Unless I plan on blasting and cruising for the rest of my life, I likely won't keep any of my gains since I'm already at or very near my genetic potential. If I do a cycle, it will be experimental and for the purpose of self educating myself and answering this question alone.

[gixxerboy1]

It really does depend. A person can only hold so much muscle naturally. So depending on size that may be an issue.

Now from the people you described that doesnt sound like the issue. You talk about your friends. Their issue sounds like diet. Nobody likes to hear it but diet is the most important thing. I cant rememeber the quote i read the other day but is was something like "you need to spend more time in the kitchen then the gym to get big" and its true. Most dont want to hear it. Most honestly dont know how bad their diet is and dont spend the time looking into it.

[The Bear 79]

I personally hav never had a problem keeping a large portion of my gains, & I can honestly say without any doubt wut so ever, ITS IN THE DIET. If ur eating rite & u hav a healthy foundation BEFORE u cycle, & u continue 2 eat rite afterwards, u will c very little loss. 80 - 90% of people that cycle, do so ignorantly & impatiently, they eat very little & wut they do eat usually is garbage, they weigh 20 - 30 lbs. less than they should & when the cycle ends, they stop lifting & dont even bother with proper diet anymor (not that they did 2 start with) U get out wut u put in, this is a lifestyle, not a hobby.

[JAB1]

I have yet to cycle myself so cant give any actual info. Just wanted to mention that alot of guys I know that go through the motions you mention never keep gains becasue the go on cycle, eat great, train hard, etc, go 100 % and make great gains. Then after cycle they stop training consistantly, dont eat right, party and live it up, and a few months later they are back to square 1. I "think" (hope) if you train hard/eat right/etc all the time the aas should allow you to stay above your natural potential full time!

[BBrian]

To comment on shortsightedness and the posters here, there are many people on this site that don't fit your description. The veteran bodybuilders here are anything but shortsighted.

"I have yet to run into a knowledgeable member who can respond genuinely about their experience and provide reasoning for their actions."

This isn't a fair statement, it's simply very common with newcomers and inexperienced bodybuilders, which of course we have an abundance of. But to the core of your concern, like gixxer and Bear pointed out, maintaining gains is not impossible by any means. It all comes down to proper diet and workout, and interestingly there is a great thread that addresses just this;

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...m#.Txhd3qX2Z3g

This is an awesome workout thread authored by Ronnie Rowland which goes into great detail about methods that he refers to as Loading and Deloading. And there are many more threads like this one. Get into the Fitness forums and you'll find some great information that debunks the mindset which states "all gains are lost post-cycle".

[Whoady]

It really does depend. A person can only hold so much muscle naturally. So depending on size that may be an issue.

Now from the people you described that doesnt sound like the issue. You talk about your friends. Their issue sounds like diet. Nobody likes to hear it but diet is the most important thing. I cant rememeber the quote i read the other day but is was something like "you need to spend more time in the kitchen then the gym to get big" and its true. Most dont want to hear it. Most honestly dont know how bad their diet is and dont spend the time looking into it.

You're probably right. I'm sure diet had something to do with them not keeping gains. But, there has to be someone one there that cycled with proper diet/training/rest and has some sort of input. If out of 100 people, everyone who cycled returned to their natural weight or natural weight in proportion of body fat, 99 returned back to where they were before the cycle, then it can be concluded that steroids do not provide anything other than short-term results. Unfortunately I haven't seen any studies like this and that is why I'm on here asking these questions.

[Whoady]

I personally hav never had a problem keeping a large portion of my gains, & I can honestly say without any doubt wut so ever, ITS IN THE DIET. If ur eating rite & u hav a healthy foundation BEFORE u cycle, & u continue 2 eat rite afterwards, u will c very little loss. 80 - 90% of people that cycle, do so ignorantly & impatiently, they eat very little & wut they do eat usually is garbage, they weigh 20 - 30 lbs. less than they should & when the cycle ends, they stop lifting & dont even bother with proper diet anymor (not that they did 2 start with) U get out wut u put in, this is a lifestyle, not a hobby.

Thanks Bear. Can you give me an example of what you gained on cycle and what you kept say 3 months after? How many times a year do you cycle?

[BBrian]

Furthermore, to speak from personal experience, I have cycled many times. I have lost all of my gains in a short time. I have also maintained close to 75% of my gains for several years after a cycle. The key in both of these scenarios was a direct result of, again, diet and exercise. What you see with many who cycle (and I have experienced this myself) is that when the cycle is over, motivation can be difficult to maintain. All of a sudden you have far less strength and energy than you did while on cycle, and those faint of heart will find themselves in the gym far less, and likewise find themselves caring less and less about eating correctly. But again, maintaining gains from a cycle is nowhere close to being impossible.

[gixxerboy1]

You're probably right. I'm sure diet had something to do with them not keeping gains. But, there has to be someone one there that cycled with proper diet/training/rest and has some sort of input. If out of 100 people, everyone who cycled returned to their natural weight or natural weight in proportion of body fat, 99 returned back to where they were before the cycle, then it can be concluded that steroids do not provide anything other than short-term results. Unfortunately I haven't seen any studies like this and that is why I'm on here asking these questions.

well whats someone natural weight? Is it what they weight if they didnt work out?
And how do you judge about someone returning to were they are before cycle. So people are much farther advanced before cycle then others.

Will i be able to stay where i am at when i come off? Probably not at the point i'm at. Will i return to a weight that is like i never took steroids? No

[Phyll]

I ran three cycles five years ago and I haven't touched gear since then. I am sure today I look the same I would look had I not run any cycles at all.

The way I see it, there are many variables involved in keeping your gains. Diet is for sure one of them. Workout intensity and recovery are crucial variables as well. When you are on gear, you work your a$$ off at the gym. It is hard to keep that same intensity for too long, let alone after your cycle is over. That comes with the territory though - AAS will make you much stronger, not to mention the psychological boost it gives you. Heck when I was cycling I felt like the king of the gym, I was invencible!!! It was like BRING IT!! ALL THE TIME.

I am not 100% sure but from what I have seen I think that to keep your gains with AAS you have to keep cycling. If you stay off for too long (now that can be one year, two years, who knows) you will revert back to your "natural" peak.

I also do believe that AAS will help you break through a plateau though. That's why I've been contemplating running another cycle, even after all these years...

I am sure you will hear people saying it is possible to keep gains, but the key question is how long has it been since their last cycle? I think that's the key determinator here. If you run a cycle twice or 3x/year, of course you'll keep your gains IMO.

You're probably right. I'm sure diet had something to do with them not keeping gains. But, there has to be someone one there that cycled with proper diet/training/rest and has some sort of input. If out of 100 people, everyone who cycled returned to their natural weight or natural weight in proportion of body fat, 99 returned back to where they were before the cycle, then it can be concluded that steroids do not provide anything other than short-term results. Unfortunately I haven't seen any studies like this and that is why I'm on here asking these questions.

[The Bear 79]

I hav cycled 3 times over a period of 5/6 yrs. 1st cycle, started @ 204 (if I remember correctly) ended @ 221 & kept 11 lbs. 2nd cycle, started @ 210 (after a cut) ended @ 233 kept 17 lbs. 3rd cycle started @ 235 lbs, ended @ 247, kept 10 lbs. & after some pretty significant natty gains I weigh about 255. Slow & steady wins the race bro. If ur doubling in size every time u cycle, then somethings rong.

[Phyll]

I agree bro. Slow, steady and consistent.

To be fair, I think I could have done a better job post cycle at keeping diet and intensity at same levels as when I was on. Probably shorter cycles too. I was on for 17 weeks at a time, and that made PCT very hard.

I know a hell of a lot more today about diet and exercising than I did back then, and that's one of the reasons I want to run another cycle too. I think I would do much better now.

I hav cycled 3 times over a period of 5/6 yrs. 1st cycle, started @ 204 (if I remember correctly) ended @ 221 & kept 11 lbs. 2nd cycle, started @ 210 (after a cut) ended @ 233 kept 17 lbs. 3rd cycle started @ 235 lbs, ended @ 247, kept 10 lbs. & after some pretty significant natty gains I weigh about 255. Slow & steady wins the race bro. If ur doubling in size every time u cycle, then somethings rong.

[NotConvincedYet]

I am yet to complete my own first cycle, but I would assume it's the same reason you see people at the gym year in and year out never make change. Seriously man, if people knew how to eat and train properly, that in itself is like being on roids! I kid you not, and I can speak from experience. I have been training for almost 20 years, and it's only the last few years that I got the training and diet thing working well. It's taken that long! And when that magic combo gets going... Whoohoo! Most people would be more that happy with the results they could get naturally if they knew how to eat and train properly. But the simple fact of the matter is that 99% you speak of don't. That's why the veterans bang on about nutrition and training all the time.

Unfortunately, until you feel the benefits of the magic natural combo you won't realize how beneficial it is. And that, in this game, is very unfortunate...

[jimmyinkedup]

I have yet to run into a knowledgeable member who can respond genuinely about their experience and provide reasoning for their actions.

Thats because when you ask questions seeking out only the answers that concur with your personal bias and opinion you tend to ignore the posts that diagree with your contentions. Thats exactly what you do. You did it in the other thread and will continue to do it im sure.
Its like the 19 year old looking for justification to cycle - they ignore the 25 posts advising against it and cling to the one that says its ok. Only your contention is the oppositeat any age.
Id stop trying to hide behind your personal bias , stop trying to cloak your motives behind the guise of intelligent debate and state your opinion like a man.
If you dont think steroids are prudent - dont do them. One can only wonder why then you are in the steroid q&a section. You could prob get and give more in the workout and nutritional resource areas.

[Whoady]

Thats because when you ask questions seeking out only the answers that concur with your personal bias and opinion you tend to ignore the posts that diagree with your contentions. Thats exactly what you do. You did it in the other thread and will continue to do it im sure.
Its like the 19 year old looking for justification to cycle - they ignore the 25 posts advising against it and cling to the one that says its ok. Only your contention is the oppositeat any age.
Id stop trying to hide behind your personal bias , stop trying to cloak your motives behind the guise of intelligent debate and state your opinion like a man.
If you dont think steroids are prudent - dont do them. One can only wonder why then you are in the steroid q&a section. You could prob get and give more in the workout and nutritional resource areas.

Umm... if I was so convinced that steroids have no benefit and will not result in any gains over a longer period of time, I wouldn't be posting anything in the first place. And my posts wouldn't be in the question format. I realize that you guys that do steroids run into a lot of guys who look down on what you do so you build a defense mechanism to combat it. Well, you don't have to do that with me because I'm not one of those guys. I'm actually trying to find out information and trying to make an educated decision. You tell guys who don't know enough about steroids to research. Well, I'm doing that. I guarantee I know a lot more about steroids than probably 90% of the guys who are on them right now. What I don't have is personal experience. I'm on here waiting until more than one person (Bear) can say that he has gained and kept not gained and lost without doing more than 1 cycle per year and with proper training/diet/rest/pct/etc. This might be a minority, and I realize that.

[gixxerboy1]

Umm... if I was so convinced that steroids have no benefit and will not result in any gains over a longer period of time, I wouldn't be posting anything in the first place. And my posts wouldn't be in the question format. I realize that you guys that do steroids run into a lot of guys who look down on what you do so you build a defense mechanism to combat it. Well, you don't have to do that with me because I'm not one of those guys. I'm actually trying to find out information and trying to make an educated decision. You tell guys who don't know enough about steroids to research. Well, I'm doing that. I guarantee I know a lot more about steroids than probably 90% of the guys who are on them right now. What I don't have is personal experience. I'm on here waiting until more than one person (Bear) can say that he has gained and kept not gained and lost without doing more than 1 cycle per year and with proper training/diet/rest/pct/etc. This might be a minority, and I realize that.

Did you even read what anyone wrote.

[Whoady]

Yes I did, why do you ask?

[gixxerboy1]

forget it.

[HitIt]

A: this is a debate?
B: i was on this forum for nearly 2 years reading damn near every thread in this section before i registered...needless to say, after that, i didn't have many questions to ask, and before i bothered anyone else i realized every question i had or could come up with has been answered already about 100 times

[Whoady]

A: this is a debate?
B: i was on this forum for nearly 2 years reading damn near every thread in this section before i registered...needless to say, after that, i didn't have many questions to ask, and before i bothered anyone else i realized every question i had or could come up with has been answered already about 100 times

A: Yes.
B: Good for you.

[gixxerboy1]

A: Yes.
B: Good for you.

There is nothing to debate. Your question has been answered.
Can you keep most of your gains?Yes.
Does there come a point you cant because you are so advanced? Yes

This is why Jimmy responded the way he did. You dont ask questions. You are trying to debate something that isnt debatable and something you dont know about.

[The Bear 79]

Well its defiantly a debate now...............

[HitIt]

A: Yes.
B: Good for you.

defense mechanism?

my point is your question has been answered a million billion trillion times...but as always, guys want to come in here and have people answer questions specific to them, which is not possible. btw, you've also already answered your own question by realizing you won't know till you experience what it is you're asking about............................................. ........................

[jimmyinkedup]

Umm... if I was so convinced that steroids have no benefit and will not result in any gains over a longer period of time, I wouldn't be posting anything in the first place. And my posts wouldn't be in the question format. I realize that you guys that do steroids run into a lot of guys who look down on what you do so you build a defense mechanism to combat it. Well, you don't have to do that with me because I'm not one of those guys. I'm actually trying to find out information and trying to make an educated decision. You tell guys who don't know enough about steroids to research. Well, I'm doing that. I guarantee I know a lot more about steroids than probably 90% of the guys who are on them right now. What I don't have is personal experience. I'm on here waiting until more than one person (Bear) can say that he has gained and kept not gained and lost without doing more than 1 cycle per year and with proper training/diet/rest/pct/etc. This might be a minority, and I realize that.

Knock it off.
More and more I see you as a troll. This is like the fourth thread where you keep coming back to the same thing - ignoring all responses that dont suit your personal views. If I had the desire I would cut and paste your posts and quotes stating your views on steroids and steroid users as well as all your back handed insults you have directed twords people and this board.
Stop trying to hide behind this "intelligent debate" bs as well. You tried to hide behind lack of science saying the baord members didnt have the knowledge you hoped till I hit you with a serious scientific question...which you avoided like the plague. The I corrected another foolish post of your re test levels and muscle with some input and a study and even a link which showed you were not accurate in your contentions- you know- real science. Again nothing from you.
You wanna have an intelligent debate? Go get some hard data to support your opinions and contentions. Man up and put your money where your mouth is. Everytime I have with you -you cower like a red headed step child and disappear with nothing to say.

[Sgt. Hartman]

I think you should research this and report your findings in this thread. If a first time steroid user or casual user makes it through pct with xyz amount of new lean tissue and his hormone levels have recovered, his nutrition is sufficient to sustain the new LBM, and his resistance training program is adequate to keep the new tissue stimulated, then by what exact mechanism would the body allow the new gains to atrophy or be cannibalized?

You say that all the gains are lost but where do they go? You should research what specifically happens to the new LBM if the 3 above criteria are met. I'd really like to know.

[xxblazenlowxx]

I think if you haven't reached your generic potential then gains should not be that hard to maintain if you consume enough calories and train.

What are your stats?

I've done two cycles cycles to get to my potential faster I kept 8lbs first time and 10lbs the second time. These cycles were about 3-4 years ago and I have added only 3 more lbs naturally.

I plan on another cycle soon trying to hit my goal of 190lbs off cycle.

How to KEEP GAINS from steroids


This info I have gleaned from self research, trial and error, from my endochrinologist, from SWALE and from training hundreds of clients over the years.

This is a longish post but many of you will greatly benefit from reading it so try to bare with my "blathering"

First of all I would like to stress that I and my endochrinologist do not believe one can keep gains above ones natural max, or that level of muscular developement that can be held to without steroids . In other words, I think one will always shrink down to the size that can be held to with ones own T production.

In reality what usually happens is that many(not all) steroid users fall BELOW their natural max within months of discontinuing steroids for one or all of the following reasons......poor HPTA recovery and or lack of knowledge in regard to what makes up proper steroid free training.

If HPTA recovery is not fairly rapid and complete then obviously one risks dropping BELOW ones natural max in time. If one does not know how to train effectively without steroids then one will rapidly overtrain and drop below natural max in time, not to mention the strong possibilty of injury which also will hinder gainskeeping.

You can, however, makes gains well above your natural max while on steroids and then with prudent use of ancillaries, and proper natural training, hold to your natural max well into ones 50's and perhaps early 60's.

As an estimate of natural max.......the average guy of average height( 5"9 or 10" and with average bone structure and genetically typical recuperative abilities (vast majority of men) can usually get to a lean 190-195 with a bench of 275-300, full squat of 375-400 and a deadlift of about 500 pounds without steroids .


ANCILLARIES....HCG


Dare I say that HCG use is more important than SERMS(nolva or clomid ) for good hpta recovery after a LONG cycle ( 12 weeks or longer)
Personally I would use hcg during any cycle 8 weeks or longer...and if you are really paranoid and want the absolute most rapid hpta recovery then use it during any cycle for next to zero testicular shrinkage.

Now you will recover hpta without hcg , and fairly quickly if you truly have not suffered from much testicular atrophy, but not as rapidly as you could and that will cost you at least some gains.

HCG , human chorionic gonadotropin, is a hormone taken from placentas during pregnancy. It limics the action of LH from the pituitary and stimualtes testosterone production in the testes.

It is important to the male bodybuilder in that proper use of this hormone PREVENTS testicular atrophy caused by HPTA shut down from steroid use .

If the testes are shut down they will shrink, it's as simple as that. The degree of shrinkage depends upon the length of time "on" androgens. Some guys literally see their testes atrophy down to raisen size..NO ****. Others see modest shrinkage and a few say they see NO shrinkage. In the latter this is BS and has to due with poor pre-cycle assessmant of testicular size....after all how many of us sit down before a cycle and really feel the true size of our balls.


NOTE: all steroids will shut you down 100% and at a very low dose, and that includes Primo and anavar for you sceptics. As little as 100mg a weekof testosterone administered exogenously in the form of injections will shut you down in as little as a few weeks.

HPTA RECOVERY

The hormones that drive the HPT axis(LH and GnRH) recover full potential quite quickly post cycle . The hypothalamus rapidly senses a low androgen level and pumps out GnRH and this tells the pituitary to release LH for testicular stimulation of T production......trouble is if the nuts are small they simply cannot respond well to this stimulation. The testes take a fair amount of time to "get going" after a long sleep and as a result T levels post cycle can be low for months(if greatly atrophied). This obviously results in a rapid loss of gains, not to mention phycological isssues such as depression as well as physical issues like fatigue.

* SO it is important for "optimal" gainskeeping to try to begin HPTA recovery with full or nearly full sized testes.

HOW TO USE HCG

It is best to prevent testicular atrophy in the first place rather than trying to bringing the boys back to size after they have already atrophied.
With this in mind prudent use of hcg is DURING a cycle .

HCG can be taken either IM or sub Q in the fat and yes you can mix it with your oils.

Take it at 500iu's every 3rd or 4th day while on cycle .


Some use it post cycle at higher doses after their testes have already shrunk. This method works but I do not believe that it is the best way to use HCG . In this method one injects a high dose of hcg right near the end ofa cycle but before clomid . The opening dose is often 3000iu's followed sometimes by another 3000 4 days latter and then 1500iu's every 4th or 5th day and then the last shot is usually only 1000iu's....total time three weeks.
No use taking clomid or nolav with the HCG since HCG will supress the hpta all by itself via the testosterone production it stimulates.

WARNING.....if you use hcg at a high dose for too long you might desensitize the testes to LH so don't get carried away with it.



SERMS clomid and nolva

After any cycle a SERM should be used, either clomid or nolva.

SERMS help to "kickstart" a sleepy hpyothalmic GnRH response.

GnRH is pretty quick to recover but SERMS help the hypothalamus to "turn the key" on the GnRH impulse generating engine.

SERMS block the affect of estrogen at the hypothalamus and since estrogen is highly inhibitory this blocking affect allows for greater LH production. This "greater LH production" strongly stimulates the testes to produce testosterone .
If you use only gear that does NOT aromatize to estrogen then you don't have to worry about the inhibitory affect of estrogen post cycle (from the steroid )...but SERMs should still be used to counter the inhibitory affect of the estrogen seen form the T production(from the hcg use).....and also from the estrogen production from the aromatization of the T production form your testes after the hcg is stopped.

*Even if you never used HCG you should still use a SERM after a cycle with non aromatizing gear to counter the inhibitory effect of normal estrogen production(from the aromatization of T from your improving T production)

You have to wait until exogenous androgen levels drop to a similar level of what a normal T production would be, in order for this LH stimulating affect from SERMS to work, since androgens are also highly inhibitory on the hypothalamus.

So you must have to have a good grasp on the half lifes of the various gear you use. You also have to be aware of the how the dose taken factors into the equation. ie: test cyp has a half life of around 6 days so with this in mind 500mg of test cyp will reduce to 250 mg in a week and about 125 in another week. That 125mg is about 100mg of pure testosterone (minus ester weight) and you can now begin SERM therapy because that level is near what a normal T output would be(slightly higher though)

NOTE: There is no penalty for starting a SERM too early but there is one for starting too late.

Search for half lifes of other gear in other threads on the boards.

On opening "SERM day", post cycle , you want to do a "loading dose" of about 200-300mg of clomid in divided doses in order to get blood levels up pronto. Then take 50-100mg/day for a week and then 50mg/day for 3 more weeks MINIMUM... and longer after deca use.
Alternatively you can use nolva at 80mg on day one in divided dose and then 40mg /day for a week and then 20mg/day for at least 3 more weeks.



PROPER STEROID FREE TRAINING POST CYCLE .....for the genetically typical(most men)...not easy gainers.

Thanx to all the glossy magazines out there very very few bro's really know how to train for gains without steroids . Dare I say that not a few of you turned to gear simply because you could not make very good gains as a natural.

Thanx JOE WEIDER, and others, for NOT telling the whole story in the glossy mags. THE ROUTINES IN THE MAGS WILL NOT WORK FOR 90% OF ALL MEN UNLESS THEY ARE, #1 ON GEAR AND #2, AT LEAST SOMEWHAT GENETICALLY GIFTED. Guys these pro's are so out of touch with what works for the typical man training naturally that it isn't funny.
These guys are genetic freaks on a ton of gear...like 2-4 grams of test a week, other steroids , growth and slin! Not only that but they don't have jobs outside the gym to drain them either!

Steroids not only help muscle building but more importantly they GREATLY improve recuperative powers.

Most guys continue to train in a very similar fashion while off gear as they did while on gear, especially in regard the number of days in the gym each week, and this is a HUGE ERROR.
Many many guys simply overtrain after they stop the gear and loose huge amounts of muscle and many actually end up below their natural max potential in time. Others do not even bother training at all without juice!

I went to a Dorian Yates seminar a few years ago and he mentioned all this. Dorians recommendations in regards to training without gear where almost identicle to mine. Dorian said that most trainees should train no more frequently than three days a week on a three way split while "off" steroids and that all should use a low volume of sets and work primarily on the big basic compound movements with very hard work. FINIALLY A PRO THAT KNOWS AND TELLS THE TRUTH!
www.dorianyates.net


Most men simply cannot recuperate from frequent trips to the gym and even moderately high volume without the assistance of steroids . Most men are genetically typical in the recuperation department....and thats at least 90% of you bro's.

I have good genetics for bodybuilding and I could train in almost any manner while on gear and gain well but even while on gear I choose to train infrequently, every other day on a three way split while "on" and Mon-Wed and FRI on a three way split while "off", and with low volume and very hard work...WHY?...for three reasons....#1. I have other things to do in my busy life and #2. I make even better gains and get even bigger with this style of training...#3. I like it

****SO>>>>>How much more is it important for the typical trainee to train in a similar way without steroids in his system.

GUYS...you don't have to be in the gym 5 and 6 days a week and train with high volume in order to see excellent gains while"on" steroids and in fact most of you would do better training fewer days and with lower volume but with more effort on those sets.
For those that are in the gym 6 days a week and like 10-20 sets per body part and are making good gains then more power to ya...but you just might do better training less frequently and with less volume.
**** I am genetically gifted and I have seen my best gains on gear training every other day on a three way split with low volume and big efforts.
Remember you easy gainers...the pro's are very genetically gifted, on more gear than most of you and don't have jobs or go to school.


EXAMPLE OF PROPER STEROID FREE TRAINING...for the genetically typical, or probably at least 90% of all bro's on this board. Notice the focus on the big basic compound movements.

********PLEASE.....the genetically gifted and easy gainers need not make negative comments!*********

Some of you like to be in the gym 5-6 days a week and like higher volume with more isolation work and you do well without steroids ...thats fine...but most men simply cannot gain well or even keep what they gained from steroids training like you. Dare I say that maybe you too would do better by cutting volume a bit, increasing effort, focusing on the big basics and spending a little less time in the gym each week.

EASY GAINERS SPLIT.

For those that gain pretty well why not reduce your time in the gym to the following 4 way split that Dorian Yates made popular. Less time in the gym and more time off recuperating just might be the ticket for you. I usually train every other day on a three way split while "on" but when "feeling my oats" I sometimes train in this Yates split.

Day 1 ON
Day 2 ON
Day 3 OFF
Day 4 ON
Day 5 OFF
Day 6 ON
Day 7 OFF


ROUTINE AND SPLIT for genetically typical men(most men)

MONDAY

all exercises to be done slow and strict...nothing super explosive or rapid. The KEY is hard work and a focus on progressive poundage gains in small to tiny jumps weekly.

Incline bench(30 degree) or some type of incline presss. 2-3 warm ups of 5 and then 2 sets hard for 8 reps
Declines or weighted dips with elbows out. 2 sets of 8. Best overall chest developer..works the entire chest well.

abbs ...now... to rest triceps. 2-3 sets each of crunches and hanging knee ups. add weight if you can do more than 20 reps. Try to curl the hips upwards as the knees come up above the waist.

Lying tricep extensions. 1 warm up of 8 and then 2 sets of 10 hard
Dips with elbows in..I like the hammer dip machine 2 sets of 8-10.

Toe press in leg press machine. Slow and full for 3- 4 sets of 10-15 reps. reduce weight after each set after only 90 second rests between sets. Works the entire calf including soleus.

WEDNESDAY

Pulldowns or chins with palms facing you grip. 2-3 warm ups of 5 and then 2-3 sets of 10 hard. Use straps...arch low back at bottom. slow and strict!

Some type of row....arch the low back and squeeze. 2 sets of 8-10 Great for mid upper back and rear delts

Overhead press to front either on a 85 degree bench with a barbell or in a machine(hammer is good) 2-3 warm ups of 5 and then 2-3 sets of 8 hard. Works the entire deltoid complex including the rear head

Upright row with straps. grip about 10 inches wide 1- 2 sets of 10

Shrugs 2-3 sets of 10

Curls 3 sets of 10 hard
forearm work if you like

FRIDAY

SQUATS....you MUST SQUAT and squat correctly and that means upper thighs to AT LEAST parallel...lower is better. 3 warm ups of 5...don't tire yourself out....then 2 and at most 3 all out sets of 10. These sets should take you a long time to complete with very high effort. rest 4 minutes between sets.
Hard squating and deadlifting make you ananbolic and help gains all over your body.

Now go over to the leg press machine and set the back rest as low as it goes(helps with full range of motion) and load up about 75% of your max weight for 10 reps.
Do one warm up set with this weight...not for your thighs BTW as they are already toast...it's to get your low back used to the deep motion of the press properly done.

Then load up your max weight for 10.

leg extensions 1 all out set of 10-15 slow and with a hold at the top

...with no more than 30 seconds rest do the leg press with that top weight you loaded up. The leg extensions done before the leg press pre-exhaust the thighs a bit and the relatively fresh glutes/hams and hips will really push those quads.
Leg press...deep and with feet high on platform. 1 all out set of 10

ALTERNATIVEY..you can get really good results from simply 3 sets of 10 of very hard deep squats.
Squats properly done work the entire quad/glutes/hams and low back very well..you really don't need anything else for the quads.

SQUAT TIP
One key is to go a little below parallel until you feel your sacrum/butt "dip" into the pocket. This activates the powerful glutes, hips and hams and allows for more weight to be squated and more quad stimulation.

DONE QUADS...now sit down for 5 minutes!

Stiff leg deadlifts....to just below knee height. Use straps. Back straight. PIVOT AT THE HIP. By far the best ham worker and a very good erector movement too. 2 warm ups of 5 and then 2 very hard sets of 10
SLDL not only work the hams very well but they also work the low back very well too.


hyperextensions with weight 1 set of 10-15
OR
regular deadlifts in the rack...set pins at just below knee height. 1 warm up and then one set of 8-10(no bouncing) use straps

leg curl. 2 sets of 8

DONE! Short but very tough leg/back workout if done with a lot of effort...and more than enough for the non steroid user. Now crawl to your post workout protein shake!

TRUE HARD GAINERS

Believe it or not bro's not a few of you need to do even fewer working sets than I listed in the above routine. Hard gainers have a very limited ability to recover from weight lifting and believe me hard gainers are not rare at all and are far more common than easy gainers. Many of you would do best by limiting the working sets to 2-3 per body part and that means fewer exercises, especially isolation exercises... believe it or not.


*** While training, and especially while natural, you MUST make weight progression and HARD WORK in the big basic movements your priority. Try to progressively add small and then tiny bits of weight to the bars weekly or every two weeks...even a 1- 2 pound gain per week on the squat and a 1 pound or less per week or two gain in the bench for reps is good progress, after the going gets really tough. Get some small plates www.fractionalplates.com

*Make sure you keep the reps strict and full as you progress in poundage though...you want REALGAINS and not gains in poundage due to progressively rapid and poorly executed reps.

After failing to get even tiny increases in weight for several weeks reduce the working sets OR let the reps drop to sets of 5...still trying to up the weights. When progress haults again take 10 full day off from weights...come back with about 90% of your previous best for the higher reps and work your way up to and past your previous bests.

INTENSITY

Generally, while "off' you want to limit the really high intensity techniques most of the time. Once a training cycle is out of the easy few weeks at the beginning you want to make your last rep honestly the last rep that you could do with good form, and if you tried to do another rep you would likely get stuck(positive failure). This is harder than most men train, especially in the squat.
Occasion use of "intensifiers" is okay but WATCH OUT or you will overtrain.

Again, weight progression in small and then tiny jumps is the key to solid progress www.fractionalplates.com


Forget about all the isolation stuff...I gave you enough already....

You want big pecs( in all regions) and triceps then add 75 pounds for reps to your declines or dips with elbows out.

You want big triceps then focus on adding 60 pounds to the overhead press and dips with elbows in...you want big biceps then focus on adding 50 pounds to your chins and 80 to your rows .....you want big side delts then focus on adding 50 pounds to your over head presses.

YOU WANT BIG WELL SHAPED RIPPED QUADS, HAMS and ERECTORS then add 200 pounds to your 10 rep squat and 150 pounds to your stiff leg deads!

CARDIO

limit the cardio to no more than 3 times a week for 30 minutes at pop or it will eat into your recuperative powers.

OTHER FACTORS

Be sure that you diet is "spot on" especially while off...plenty of carbs, around a gram of protein per pound of body weight, plenty of essentail fatty acids and a real decent amount of total calories taken in(but be careful not to take so much that you get fat). Eat 5-6 small meals a day two of which can be a protein drink.
It's important to always eat some carbs and protein after a workout but more so while off.
Sleep is always important too but even more important when off.

HEW!....a lot of work for a ****ty typer like me.

Best of gains and health to you all

[jamesz123]

I just read your lonnng post. thx for that - just have two questions:

"NOTE: all steroids will shut you down 100% and at a very low dose, and that includes Primo and anavar for you sceptics. As little as 100mg a weekof testosterone administered exogenously in the form of injections will shut you down in as little as a few weeks."

Not sure what you mean. I have used small amounts and never experienced a shut down !!

Also you mentioned Yates - so what does he recommend in terms of training when ON a cycle - what frequency and volume ?

This is very good topic and gets to the heart of many issues. I have done about 5-6 cycles many years ago. I can honestly say that compared to today my diet and my training were no good. I used to get bloated, red and heavy and than post cycle did not really eat to maintian (even though I thought I was eating right). That is what I see most people do. Same with any field really ....web marketing, boxing or bodybuilding...
main point- unless you are exceptational gifted you have to build a base, eat and train right, know your body and when you do start juicing, use steriods more frequently than two cycles a year (assuming they are two average length/size cycles) and only than will you keep most of the gain. It is a longer journey than you might think. Just my experience.

[Whoady]

Wow Blazen! This is something I definitely have to read, thanks for your awesome contribution!

I'm gonna answer Jame's question first cause I actually read about that before:
I also read that taking even small amounts of exogenous testosterone will shut you down. If a human produces 55-70 mg a week of test, and you take 100 mg a week, your body will sense this change and try and maintain homeostasis, therefore shutting down endogenous production. It's like a glass of water. The glass is your natural production limit, the water is your natural test levels. If you put more test in than your natural levels dictate, the water will spill (the HPTA will shut down production). By the same mechanism, I would assume that even taking 10 mg more than you need of test will also shut you down. I'm not an expert, so I'm here asking questions like anyone else, but I would think that is the way it worked.

Back to reading the post.

[Whoady]

Knock it off.
More and more I see you as a troll. This is like the fourth thread where you keep coming back to the same thing - ignoring all responses that dont suit your personal views. If I had the desire I would cut and paste your posts and quotes stating your views on steroids and steroid users as well as all your back handed insults you have directed twords people and this board.
Stop trying to hide behind this "intelligent debate" bs as well. You tried to hide behind lack of science saying the baord members didnt have the knowledge you hoped till I hit you with a serious scientific question...which you avoided like the plague. The I corrected another foolish post of your re test levels and muscle with some input and a study and even a link which showed you were not accurate in your contentions- you know- real science. Again nothing from you.
You wanna have an intelligent debate? Go get some hard data to support your opinions and contentions. Man up and put your money where your mouth is. Everytime I have with you -you cower like a red headed step child and disappear with nothing to say.

I don't want to start arguing with you, it's pointless. You already made your mind up about me, and that's fine. There are other members who think I made a valid question and are answering me.

[jimmyinkedup]

I don't want to start arguing with you wise choice in this case, it's pointless. You already made your mind up about me, im not alone and that's fine. no - it really isntThere are other members who think I made a valid question and are answering me. yes there are those that are unaware of your previous statements and post history - they will catch on soon

see bold...
Should we discuss your previous comments on steroids and those that take them? Perhaps we should discuss the lack of scientific knowledge here(according to you) - even though several such contributions have been made in your threads - none of course by you.
Trust me - we will not be arguing....but I will call you on your BS every time.

[jamesz123]

Wow Blazen! This is something I definitely have to read, thanks for your awesome contribution!

I'm gonna answer Jame's question first cause I actually read about that before:
I also read that taking even small amounts of exogenous testosterone will shut you down. If a human produces 55-70 mg a week of test, and you take 100 mg a week, your body will sense this change and try and maintain homeostasis, therefore shutting down endogenous production. It's like a glass of water. The glass is your natural production limit, the water is your natural test levels. If you put more test in than your natural levels dictate, the water will spill (the HPTA will shut down production). By the same mechanism, I would assume that even taking 10 mg more than you need of test will also shut you down. I'm not an expert, so I'm here asking questions like anyone else, but I would think that is the way it worked.

Back to reading the post.

I understand the logic but with such small dosage ?
If that is the case than even a small very mild cycle will give you erection problems (or the like) post cycle and we know that is not true.

[gixxerboy1]

I understand the logic but with such small dosage ?
If that is the case than even a small very mild cycle will give you erection problems (or the like) post cycle and we know that is not true.

Dont look for Whoady for advice or explanations of how steroids work

[Whoady]

Dont look for Whoady for advice or explanations of how steroids work

Ok why don't you explain in case I made a mistake? I'm just trying to help where I can and what I know. Just because I haven't cycled yet doesn't make me stupid.

[Whoady]

Sorry for coming off as a prick in my earlier posts. I've been trying to quit the mj. I really was seeking advice but now I can see how I was coming off like one.

[jamesz123]

Ok why don't you explain in case I made a mistake? I'm just trying to help where I can and what I know. Just because I haven't cycled yet doesn't make me stupid.

Oh so you have not cycled yet !
well I have a bunch of times and practically speaking I did not experience any real issues when coming off a cycle even though all I used most of the time was Nolvedex when coming off. One might have another scientific explanation for that (real quick recovery etc) but that has been my experience. i also never experienced Deca dick.
Just another point , I find it strange how HIT advocates cling to what Dorian Yates did or said as if that was some great validation for HIT.
Yates is one pro bodybuilder and a sample of one is just that ...ONE, it just aint enough.

[The Bear 79]

Ok why don't you explain in case I made a mistake? I'm just trying to help where I can and what I know. Just because I haven't cycled yet doesn't make me stupid.

Hands on exp. go's a long way here man. Would u want a doc that just read the book or a doc that has proven, successful, hands on exp diagnosing & treating patients over the yrs?

[jamesz123]

Hands on exp. go's a long way here man. Would u want a doc that just read the book or a doc that has proven, successful, hands on exp diagnosing & treating patients over the yrs?

Exactly. Also isn't it true that doctors for years said that steroids do not really do much, for sports purposes, back in the 50s and 60s while steroids were already in full use.

Plus my comment on HIT were not meant at anyone specifically. HIT opened my eyes to many things (and I did it for some years) but strictly speaking I do not agree with its long term practical application for building a bodybuilders body. I also do not think that Yates himself follows HIT the way Mentzer intended it - didn't Dorain yates do more than one exercise for even the smallest body part (like bicep, even though he does one set of each) and that according to HIT is over-training.

[Bossman]

I've read a lot of "I think" and "you should be able to" regarding keeping your size gained on cycle.

I have seen NO one keep the size they have built on cycle if they no longer continue to cycle. That has also been my own experience. Whether its your first cycle or last, if you stop using AAS, you will eventually revert to the normal person you were before. And quite often, you will actually end up smaller. There is a recovery period and if you've cycled much, your rebound may be very slow and take months.

Bear mentioned diet and that is important. Diet, and proper training can and will prolong the loss of "super" natural muscle. But eventually, you will lose it.

[The Bear 79]

I've read a lot of "I think" and "you should be able to" regarding keeping your size gained on cycle.

I have seen NO one keep the size they have built on cycle if they no longer continue to cycle. That has also been my own experience. Whether its your first cycle or last, if you stop using AAS, you will eventually revert to the normal person you were before. And quite often, you will actually end up smaller. There is a recovery period and if you've cycled much, your rebound may be very slow and take months.

Bear mentioned diet and that is important. Diet, and proper training can and will prolong the loss of "super" natural muscle. But eventually, you will lose it.

That's not tru. & I'm living proof of it, I've made steady gains over the yrs, & hav kept 60 - 70 % of cycle gains every time. Ur body is wut u mak it, I don't believe in "uncontrollable loss of mass", I admit ur gona lose some gains after ur cycle, but if u lose ALL ur gains & / or end up smaller that u were b4 u started..................u did something rong................PERIOD. I don't care if its 3 months or 3 yrs after cycle, u should not lose ALL ur gains, if u r, its UR fualt, not the gear.

[jamesz123]

That's not tru. & I'm living proof of it, I've made steady gains over the yrs, & hav kept 60 - 70 % of cycle gains every time. Ur body is wut u mak it, I don't believe in "uncontrollable loss of mass", I admit ur gona lose some gains after ur cycle, but if u lose ALL ur gains & / or end up smaller that u were b4 u started..................u did something rong................PERIOD. I don't care if its 3 months or 3 yrs after cycle, u should not lose ALL ur gains, if u r, its UR fualt, not the gear.

My experience is also the same as Bossman - but than what do I know. You guys seem to have so much more experience than me,
Maybe he is talking about how a competitive bodybuilder looks as compared to when he comes off the juice. You know how they do not look anything like they did when they were on.
Having said that 60-70% gain keeping is huge, how many cycles a year do you use ?