question about first time prop use....

[Nuzzi]

I had planned my 3rd cycle to include test prop and tren but have been thinking, it would be my first time using either tren or prop (other cycles have been test e) so i was considering dropping the tren and just trying out the prop to get a feeling of it and then try tren the next time around. am i overthinking it or does this have some value? i feel like if i take the tren and prop together i wont really be able to tell which is which. any constructive opinions are appreciated, thanks.

[Noles12]

I do not prefer jumping to tren for a 3rd cycle.

You will be able to tell which is which seeing as you have run test before but tren should not be incorporated this soon imo

[marcus300]

Cycle history?
Stats?

[Nuzzi]

28
5'10
175 10-11%

1st cycle: 10wks test e 250/wk, winny tabs last 4 wks 30mg/ed
2nd 12wks test e 500/wk, wk 1-4 dbol 40mg

this cycle would be 12wks test p 75mg/ed, possibly dbol wk 1-4 30mg/ed.

i know im on the small side, ive always been lean. keep in mind i started at 155# before cycling so ive made def improvements. i had a thread not too long ago about figuring out my 3rd cycle which concluded with the use of prop and tren (tren @ 50mg/ed) i would be fine with dropping the tren, was actually thinking of deca before tren to build up the joints to better handle tren later on if that makes sense. i def want to do it right and take all suggestions serious.

[marcus300]

I wouldn't advice you to cycle, I would ask you to change your diet to suit your goals and readjust your training programme. You can carry on taking steroids if you like but you will carry on losing most of what you build after the cycle as ended, this is due to your diet not supporting the new tissue. You wasn't ready for steroids when you first started and your not ready now, you need to gain at least 20lbs naturally and then start cycling, this will be a far better foundation to build rather than trying to just reply on steroids to change your body.

[Nuzzi]

thanks, my diet is very good, and this cycle wouldnt start for a while im just planning ahead. im aware my first cycle was a mess but i learned alot from it. i always push myself hard in the gym and for some people its impossible to gain 20lbs natural. i dont feel like i wasted any time with aas thus far as i have gained quited a bit and kept it since last cycle. i actually look big on my frame im just light. i understand why the diet is always pushed but sometimes it seems like the easy way out of helping some one. not trying to start anything as i respect all input but saying im not ready because of my weight is a bit foreward. and i think a cut 175 is fairly respectable

[marcus300]

thanks, my diet is very good, and this cycle wouldnt start for a while im just planning ahead. im aware my first cycle was a mess but i learned alot from it. i always push myself hard in the gym and for some people its impossible to gain 20lbs natural. i dont feel like i wasted any time with aas thus far as i have gained quited a bit and kept it since last cycle. i actually look big on my frame im just light. i understand why the diet is always pushed but sometimes it seems like the easy way out of helping some one. not trying to start anything as i respect all input but saying im not ready because of my weight is a bit foreward. and i think a cut 175 is fairly respectable

The reason why you don't think you can gain another 20lbs naturally is because you haven't mastered the art of eating correctly to maintain and build new tissue. Your 175lbs after 2 cycles speaks volumes to be honest. I stand by my previous comment and the best way forward for you is in the diet section. Best of luck

[Nuzzi]

ok, thanks for your support. (meant in a possitive way)

[BBrian]

Marcus is one of the most knowledgeable people here, you can rely heavily on his advice. Getting to 195 at 5'10" is difficult, I know that sounds very tough, but it's far from impossible. You and I have very similar builds, I'm the same height as you and I was 142 when I started lifting, but I'm 35 now and was 142 at the age of 19. It took me a long time to figure out how to diet for maximum mass, but like I said, Marcus' advice is spot on. If you can discipline yourself to consume 6-7 meals that contain 1.5g of protein per lb of body weight, 4-5k calories per day, and a lot of quality carbs and fat, you'll probably find yourself gaining weight you never thought possible without steroids . And then add anabolics to the equation! Even after I researched and understood what kind of diet I needed to meet my goals, it still took a long time to actually develop the discipline to consume that much food consistently. And then I've had to deal with unexpected variables like getting pneumonia twice and bronchitis four times in six months, which proved very effective in destroying my 185-195 pound off-cycle physique. I guess the main point I'm trying to get across is that will-power is just as important as knowledge, but make no mistake about the validity of Marcus' advice.

[Nuzzi]

i dont doubt that i can gain more natural, saying its impossible was not meant literaly. i just have always had a fast metabolism and was always the skinny sick kid, i eat every two hours more or less and never any junk food or proccessed stuff, i cook all my own food, chicken, fish, steak, pork, pasta ect, ill save the details for the diet section. i dont regret what ive done so far as i feel it took me over a hump i just couldnt get past, and now im in more of a position to continue with natural progress for a while, im planning on seeing how the summer goes and maybe by next winter depending where im at look at starting a third cycle, i just like to plan ahead and even though i dont have many posts i browse these forums every day just reading and researching. this forum has definately helped me in so many ways. i know people are just trying to help but after a while it gets discouraging because you get judged by how much you weigh and not by your actual work ethic. i bust my ass just as hard as some one @ 220lbs, so to me im just as worthy. regardless, im not here to make waves i just want to better myself and constructive advice is all i ask. no disrespect was meant. i had a thought in my head about the cycle so just thought i would post a question, never said i was starting tomorrow. also plenty of legends like Frank Zane ect were only 195 at there prime.

[BBrian]

What are your goals for your third cycle? Gain as much mass as possible? Hard, cut physique?

[thex95]

What is the point of doing a cycle if you can't maintain your mass? Your not gaining weight during your cycle, your renting it and that's just a waste of money.

[JohnnyVegas]

Just chiming in to support the good advice above: get the diet right first. Otherwise it will be impossible to gain and/or maintain. Man, I look at the hundreds of hours I wasted in the gym as a kid. I didn't learn that eating and resting caused growth until my 30s.

Lifting just tears the muscle down; it is eating and playing video games that results in growth!

[stpete]

The reason why you don't think you can gain another 20lbs naturally is because you haven't mastered the art of eating correctly to maintain and build new tissue. Your 175lbs after 2 cycles speaks volumes to be honest. I stand by my previous comment and the best way forward for you is in the diet section. Best of luck

^^^This.

[Nuzzi]

all points taken, but as i said, i eat. have you all missed when i said ive gained 20lbs since before cycling? so how is that not keeping gains or making improvements? and of course i know i can do more natural, so can anyone, but its like saying well you can do 160mph with a turbo in 15 seconds, but why bother because you can easily do it 25 seconds NA.

[marcus300]

all points taken, but as i said, i eat. have you all missed when i said ive gained 20lbs since before cycling? so how is that not keeping gains or making improvements? and of course i know i can do more natural, so can anyone, but its like saying well you can do 160mph with a turbo in 15 seconds, but why bother because you can easily do it 25 seconds NA.

Thats not really true because when you was natural and before you started your first cycle you was 160lbs and the heaviest you had been natural was 170lbs, so if your 175lbs now you haven't really gained anything, well maybe 5 lbs heavier. Here is the thread when you asked for advice and everyone told you to get your diet in order. Even you stated you cant get bigger no matter what you do.

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...ion&highlight=

yeah yeah we all hate newbs, im no stranger to working out ect though. Heres the rundown, im 5'11" about 160lbs, been working out since middle school and im 26 in a week. the heaviest ive ever been was about 170, my problem is that no matter what i take(OTC products) or how much i lift i just cant get big. recently ive been looking into trying a few cycles to help me out, i never wanted to be a juice head or need to have products run my life. there are soo many products available so my question is simply what would you recomend as a beginer cycle and something that wont require a second job to afford? i dont want to go crazy and have alot of side effects either. I would like to stay as lean as possible also. TIA

This thread below was when you was going to start your 2nd cycle- your stats before your 2nd cycle were 175lbs - yet again everyone told you to sort your diet out and not to cycle. Infact your stats are the same as when you first started your 2nd cycle and now your on your 3rd with the exact same stats so your 2nd cycle was a waste of time just like everyone told you.

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...uch&highlight=

27
175
5'10"
lean
have worked out all my life, i eat constantly (healthy) and drink 2 to 3 shakes a day, its hard for me to put on any weight at all never mind tons of muscle. ive worked out natural until my first cycle which im just ending pct now. best gains of my life. i will agree 750 test is probably too much at this stage, im just trying to get the most out of this cycle since i wont do another one untill next year most likely. I can lower it down to 500mg/wk. what about the rest....i dont mind pinning a couple times a week but im not up for several injections as if i used tren a like im sure someone will advise me to start with instead of tren e. 50mg seems to be the norm for dosage o winny/dbol although i know most will say not to do two orals in one cycle but going by my original outline i felt there was enough time in between the dbol/winny to be ok. the main goal is to bulk up and then cut. please correct me if im wrong. thanks.

Now your asking for advice on your 3rd cycle with the same stats as before your 2nd cycle and we are still giving you the same advice- can you see what we are telling you is true? its pointless taking steroids because your diet isn't going to support any kind of new tissue. You will lose all gains once the cycle ends. When this sinks in and you do something about it you will start seeing gains but until then your wasting time, effort and money on steroids.

You need to be true with yourself and stop trying to justify it when its plain to see what you need to do. Stop taking steroids and sort your diet out, gain another 20lbs naturally before cycling again. Trust me you will see solid gains if you attack your diet and start eating to grow, build the solid foundation and you will start moving forward.

[BBrian]

...wow.

"ive worked out natural until my first cycle"

This gave me a good laugh.

[BBrian]

double